Wacko Jacko

Victory

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Something that did cross my mind was that Feldman and Caulkin were probably substantially richer as famous child actors at the time than the kids who went on to make accusations of abuse. It could be possible that MJ didn't interfere with the connected 'rich kids' out of fear that that would have been more risk of getting caught and higher exposure in the media should they have made allegations. Just a theory.
I agree, and also put forward my idea that Jackson also used his friendships with Caulkin and Feldman as part of his grooming plans.
Neither of these two public figures were molested, and so when asked about it they would defend Jackson.
This would give other children and their parents a false sense of security; would help lure non-famous, lower income children into Jackson's orbit....after which he would take advantage of them.
 

Recycled1

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I abhor what he may have done, but I love his music and his dancing, it will not stop me enjoying them
You may find his stuff gets an unofficial ban from being played /shown.
I've noticed how Gary Glitter's 'music' has disappeared from the radio since he was unmasked.
 

Shady

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I don't listen to the radio anyway, so that will not bother me and there is also youtube, wonder if he will be banned there as well?
 

Sharon Hill

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I watched Leaving Neverland in its entirety and found the stories by Wade Robson and Jimmy Safechuck to be pretty compelling and believable. There are letters, photos, videos and place witnesses. Even the maid saw things. They were so young when this stuff started that they didn't know this was "abuse". They thought it was love. They craved MJ's attention. They got jealous when there were other boys to take their place. They explained why they never came forward and why they lied to their family and, in Wade's case, in court. And, their families were treated well during the years of being in MJ's favor, so everyone benefited and it seemed all good. The mothers in this documentary were the most fascinating, in my opinion. They never saw anything negative, went along for the fun ride, and were wrecked when their sons finally came out about it.

I do believe MJ was a pedophile. But I don't think we have to smear his work, same for Bill Cosby. Yet, some people will not be able to make that separation, obviously. I see this whole story as a really sad reflection of the high value modern society places on entertainment-related fame and "stars". Jackson was a seriously sick dude in many ways, no doubt about that. He messed up these guys and their families pretty good but they went willingly along and no one did anything except enable Jackson his entire life.
 

ShadyCavalier

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I wonder if the public and media would show so much support for MJ if he had been (accused of) abusing girls. What I've read lately is nothing short of victim shaming, and shows the double standards of a supposedly liberal society.
 

James_H

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I do believe MJ was a pedophile. But I don't think we have to smear his work, same for Bill Cosby.
I feel like we have a weird double standard as a society about this. Jimmy Savile, whose 'work' was trash, is OK to go in the bin. Roman Polanski, David Bowie, and other 'serious artists' get a pass.
 

Ogdred Weary

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I feel like we have a weird double standard as a society about this. Jimmy Savile, whose 'work' was trash, is OK to go in the bin. Roman Polanski, David Bowie, and other 'serious artists' get a pass.
A friend made that comment about Savile, when various revelations were coming out and no one knew where it was going to end, assuming it has, and who was going to be accused or found guilty. Admittedly, it's easy to excise Savile as he was a presenter: you can show old TOTP edited around him. Also, he traded in time filling inane drek which people remeber but don't necessarily want to revisit, Glitter is more complicated because he was an "artist" but his music has been regarded as kitsch for some time. It's harder with the likes Polanksi, or Woody Allen, as their films are acclaimed. In both cases, things are not proven, though I'd say there's enough there with Allen for me to believe he's guilty.

The Bowie one is more complicated, in that the "victim" still does not consider herself to be abused, in the eyes of the law she was and no doubt in many people's eyes as well. Unfortunately it is a grey area, and a very uncomfortable one, if she never considers it abuse, is it? To some extent only she can decide this and some people would argue a young person has been altered by abuse to the point that they can't make that decision even as an adult. Ultimately, 25 yro men (or women) should not be having sex with 13 yros, even if they don't know how old they are. Where does one draw the line? Is 15 more OK than 13? Does one day short of being 16 make the adult a paedophile but on their 16th birthday it's completely fine? It's certainly not illegal, though very probably immoral, depending on the ages of each person and the circumstances.

There's a question mark over Pete Townsend too and my guess is that we will never be made aware of the extent of abuse and inappropiate behaviour by Rock Stars, let alone other groups. Where things are brought to light it may be impossible to prove anything and many people simply will not believe it. Famous "pacifist" John Lennon was apparently violent to both Yoko Ono and his previous wife.
 

James_H

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It's harder with the likes Polanksi, or Woody Allen, as their films are acclaimed. In both cases, things are not proven, though I'd say there's enough there with Allen for me to believe he's guilty
I actually have more doubt about Woody Allen's alleged crimes than with Polanski, whose case seems fairly cut-and-dried. Not that it matters what I think, obviously.
 

Swifty

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I feel like we have a weird double standard as a society about this. Jimmy Saville, whose 'work' was trash..
I used to enjoy watching the Jim'll Fix It show as a kid, more often than not I was confused about why some kid's dream was so different to my own dreams because theirs was "I want to meet Barbara Woodhouse!", I wasn't creeped out by Saville at all at the time, he was just some scruffy connected bloke in a shell suit who clearly knew everyone so he could pull some strings and make kid's dreams come true when I was watching it because he knew a lot of show biz people. That was it.
 

GNC

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I actually have more doubt about Woody Allen's alleged crimes than with Polanski, whose case seems fairly cut-and-dried. Not that it matters what I think, obviously.
Polanski was convicted - not that he was in the courtroom, he ran away, but he is a convicted child rapist. Allen, for whom a strong case for prosecution was never found, I believe to be probably innocent, not that this is a popular view, but his son Moses has spoken publicly about Mia Farrow and her "brainwashing" of her kids (some of whom have ended up in a very bad way, even dead).

Here's his statement:
Moses' statement

The fact that Mia supports Polanski and has never criticised her brother, who really is a convicted paedophile, speaks volumes about her dodgy priorities. What is certain is that you should be glad you're not related to her.

As for Jackson, it seems more that he had the money to get away with it than that he was innocent. It is a bit "he said, she said", but there is enough for us to know there was something very wrong going on in Neverland, rape or no rape.
 

Yithian

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A friend made that comment about Savile, when various revelations were coming out and no one knew where it was going to end, assuming it has, and who was going to be accused or found guilty. Admittedly, it's easy to excise Savile as he was a presenter: you can show old TOTP edited around him. Also, he traded in time filling inane drek which people remeber but don't necessarily want to revisit, Glitter is more complicated because he was an "artist" but his music has been regarded as kitsch for some time. It's harder with the likes Polanksi, or Woody Allen, as their films are acclaimed. In both cases, things are not proven, though I'd say there's enough there with Allen for me to believe he's guilty.

The Bowie one is more complicated, in that the "victim" still does not consider herself to be abused, in the eyes of the law she was and no doubt in many people's eyes as well. Unfortunately it is a grey area, and a very uncomfortable one, if she never considers it abuse, is it? To some extent only she can decide this and some people would argue a young person has been altered by abuse to the point that they can't make that decision even as an adult. Ultimately, 25 yro men (or women) should not be having sex with 13 yros, even if they don't know how old they are. Where does one draw the line? Is 15 more OK than 13? Does one day short of being 16 make the adult a paedophile but on their 16th birthday it's completely fine? It's certainly not illegal, though very probably immoral, depending on the ages of each person and the circumstances.

There's a question mark over Pete Townsend too and my guess is that we will never be made aware of the extent of abuse and inappropiate behaviour by Rock Stars, let alone other groups. Where things are brought to light it may be impossible to prove anything and many people simply will not believe it. Famous "pacifist" John Lennon was apparently violent to both Yoko Ono and his previous wife.
I didn't know there was a 'Bowie one'.

I've never been more than a casual listener to his music. I only have a slight fondness for him due to his introduction to The Snowman.
 

ShadyCavalier

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I feel like we have a weird double standard as a society about this. Jimmy Savile, whose 'work' was trash, is OK to go in the bin. Roman Polanski, David Bowie, and other 'serious artists' get a pass.
What a great point - I've never considered that before (nor did I know there were allegations about David Bowie...).

Using a more recent example, R Kelly has been dropped like a stone, but he was never particularly critically acclaimed or seen as an "idol" either.
 

Ogdred Weary

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I didn't know there was a 'Bowie one'.

I've never been more than a casual listener to his music. I only have a slight fondness for him due to his introduction to The Snowman.
He slept with a 13yro groupie aged 25, she was "up for it" and apparently slept with a load of 60s/70s rockstars. I think she's written a bio and become a "professional ex-groupie", though I may be confusing her with someone else.
 

James_H

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Polanski was convicted - not that he was in the courtroom, he ran away, but he is a convicted child rapist. Allen, for whom a strong case for prosecution was never found, I believe to be probably innocent, not that this is a popular view, but his son Moses has spoken publicly about Mia Farrow and her "brainwashing" of her kids (some of whom have ended up in a very bad way, even dead).

Here's his statement:
Moses' statement

The fact that Mia supports Polanski and has never criticised her brother, who really is a convicted paedophile, speaks volumes about her dodgy priorities. What is certain is that you should be glad you're not related to her.
I totally agree with all of this. Also the fact that two of Farrow's adopted children have killed themselves and one died by overdose doesn't paint a picture of a happy family.
 

Austin Popper

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I totally agree with all of this. Also the fact that two of Farrow's adopted children have killed themselves and one died by overdose doesn't paint a picture of a happy family.
That piece by Moses is some of the most powerful writing I've seen in quite a while. It's pretty much impossible for me to imagine what life was like in that house. I never paid much attention to Woody Allen, beyond enjoying his movies when I saw them. The whole thing had a bad stink about it, like maybe from a brain dead lynch mob, so I've had no opinion about any of it. Moses makes a very strong and sensible case. Mia sounds like a seriously messed up person, aside from her accusations about Woody.
 

maximus otter

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I feel like we have a weird double standard as a society about this. Jimmy Savile, whose 'work' was trash, is OK to go in the bin. Roman Polanski, David Bowie, and other 'serious artists' get a pass.
"Lori Mattix, sometimes known as Lori Maddox, is a former child model and "baby" groupie of the 1970s. She is currently a partner and buyer for the Glam Boutique in West Hollywood.[1] She is most notable for her interview in 2015 in which she made allegations of being involved in sexual relationships with David Bowie, Jimmy Page, and Mick Jagger; relationships which are alleged to have occurred while she was underage and while the musicians were in their twenties."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lori_Mattix

Offence archaeologists can now delete from their playlists:

Michael Jackson
David Bowie
Gary Glitter
The Rolling Stones
Led Zeppelin
To be continued...

maximus otter
 

Cochise

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"Lori Mattix, sometimes known as Lori Maddox, is a former child model and "baby" groupie of the 1970s. She is currently a partner and buyer for the Glam Boutique in West Hollywood.[1] She is most notable for her interview in 2015 in which she made allegations of being involved in sexual relationships with David Bowie, Jimmy Page, and Mick Jagger; relationships which are alleged to have occurred while she was underage and while the musicians were in their twenties."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lori_Mattix

Offence archaeologists can now delete from their playlists:

Michael Jackson
David Bowie
Gary Glitter
The Rolling Stones
Led Zeppelin
To be continued...

maximus otter
People forget the 70's was quite a long time ago. Standards were different then. As a (very peripheral) musician in the 70's I don't think anyone was asking the age of those ladies who, er, made themselves available. Some of them were like the female equivalent of trainspotters, but no need to carry a notebook and binoculars.

Edit - the point I'm trying to make is that it is a bit different going to bed after a gig with a woman who has been drinking in the same venue and voluntarily seeks your attention to the kind of grooming behaviour of pre-pubescent children that Jackson and Savile undertook.
 
Last edited:

Ogdred Weary

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People forget the 70's was quite a long time ago. Standards were different then. As a (very peripheral) musician in the 70's I don't think anyone was asking the age of those ladies who, er, made themselves available. Some of them were like the female equivalent of trainspotters, but no need to carry a notebook and binoculars.

Edit - the point I'm trying to make is that it is a bit different going to bed after a gig with a woman who has been drinking in the same venue and voluntarily seeks your attention to the kind of grooming behaviour of pre-pubescent children that Jackson and Savile undertook.
I don't think many people would disagree with you.
 

Ogdred Weary

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"Lori Mattix, sometimes known as Lori Maddox, is a former child model and "baby" groupie of the 1970s. She is currently a partner and buyer for the Glam Boutique in West Hollywood.[1] She is most notable for her interview in 2015 in which she made allegations of being involved in sexual relationships with David Bowie, Jimmy Page, and Mick Jagger; relationships which are alleged to have occurred while she was underage and while the musicians were in their twenties."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lori_Mattix

Offence archaeologists can now delete from their playlists:

Michael Jackson
David Bowie
Gary Glitter
The Rolling Stones
Led Zeppelin
To be continued...

maximus otter
What is an "offence archaeologist"? Are they digging up old offences or are they finding "offence" in the past?
 
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