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Waverley Abbey

lordmongrove said:
As i state in the article i think sightings of dragons both historic and modern are of paranormal entities, perhaps the most ancient of paranormal entities. The largest flesh and blood flying creatures we know of were the pterosaurs Quetzalcoatlus and Hatzegopteryx both of which had 40 foot wingspans and were as tall as giraffes.
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Those were flying when the composition of the air was different. Nothing these days can fly at that size. So the interesting question still remains as to why people see things that big flying around? It can't be with the eyes, because something BIG flying around will attract attention from anyone in the district, the same as a low flying aircraft. So they must have 'seen' it differently, and since a group appeared to have all seen it together - what was operating at that place to cause such a thing?
 
Following my visit to the ruins on Saturday, here are the photos I took of the yew tree, upon which one of the smaller dragons is described as landing. The tree grows up from one corner of the ruined wall of the abbey church:
20241123_115221.jpg

And looking upwards from the base:
20241123_115335.jpg
 
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Paul_Exeter said:
Pretty substantial branches and of course the whole mythology around yew trees. How old do you think this one might be?
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The Dissolution of the Monasteries was late 1530s, and the abbey was mostly demolished, stone from the abbey was used to build Loseley Park in the late 1560s. So if we assume that the abbey church was razed around 1550ish, the tree cannot have started growing before that (it is literally sat upon one corner of the church wall). 400 years? 450 at most.

Edit: Obviously, that is the maximum age. I have no idea what the minimum age could be. 100 years? Growth rates of yew trees are notoriously difficult to estimate, and great age has been assigned to trees with little or no evidence. I recall one tree where great age was claimed - until it was found that the roots had grown down through a medieval tomb, revealing that the tomb had been there first.
 
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Loosely related to the thread:


yew.jpg


The Resc-Yew Plan​

These stunning sculptures began their life as yew trees (now the ‘rescue – rescyew puns make sense!) which had become problematic. Yew is a fascinating and beautiful wood which grows in all kinds of shapes and patterns. They are some of the oldest trees in the country, are great for making all kinds of things. This ranges from carving household objects and art to furniture. Most famously though, they have the reputation of making the best long bows! However, that wild beauty can sometimes cause problems for the landowners.
In this case, they were growing too close to the house.

Initially, the owners had the tops removed, but it turned out that wasn’t going to be a good long-term solution. Rather than remove them completely, they decided to turn them into a different kind of beautiful – a Simon O’Rourke sculpture! All projects have their points of fun and excitement, but one of the things Simon enjoys about this kind of commission is the sense of giving life and purpose back to something that had either died, was damaged, or could no longer remain as it was. Even better when it’s something as fun and unique as this fairytale sculpture!
https://treecarving.co.uk/the-great-resc-yew-rescue-two-towers-and-a-dragon/
 
Paul_Exeter said:
Pretty substantial branches and of course the whole mythology around yew trees. How old do you think this one might be?
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I just found an article, and things are getting a little weird here, because it was published in November 2022 in... The Guildford Dragon News (!)

In 2022 the Waverley Abbey won the Woodland's Trust Tree of the Year contest. The article states "The winning yew is thought to be over 500 years old and will now go on to represent the UK in the European Tree of the Year contest."

Waverley Abbey Yew in Surrey Crowned Tree Of The Year 2022 from The Guildford Dragon News website.

From the results of the 2023 European Tree of the Year contest:

The winner of UK Tree of the Year 2022 is a yew perching on the ruins of Waverley Abbey, in Surrey, founded 900 years ago by the reforming Cistercian religious order.

After the abbey was dismantled in 1536 following the Dissolution of the Monasteries, the yew tree sprung up and has been a faithful guardian of the ruins for nearly 500 years. It is a spectacular tree with roots that sprawl out above ground before plunging into the earth. Its multi-stemmed form is dotted with holes, crevices and areas of decay that provide valuable habitat for wildlife.
 
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SimonBurchell said:
I just found an article, and things are getting a little weird here, because it was published in November 2022 in... The Guildford Dragon News (!)

In 2022 the Waverley Abbey won the Woodland's Trust Tree of the Year contest. The article states "The winning yew is thought to be over 500 years old and will now go on to represent the UK in the European Tree of the Year contest."

Waverley Abbey Yew in Surrey Crowned Tree Of The Year 2022 from The Guildford Dragon News website.

From the results of the 2023 European Tree of the Year contest:

The winner of UK Tree of the Year 2022 is a yew perching on the ruins of Waverley Abbey, in Surrey, founded 900 years ago by the reforming Cistercian religious order.

After the abbey was dismantled in 1536 following the Dissolution of the Monasteries, the yew tree sprung up and has been a faithful guardian of the ruins for nearly 500 years. It is a spectacular tree with roots that sprawl out above ground before plunging into the earth. Its multi-stemmed form is dotted with holes, crevices and areas of decay that provide valuable habitat for wildlife.
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I'm reminded of how Ufologist Jenny Randles kept coming across coincidences when conducting field work and research on UFO cases and came to the conclusion that there was something deeper going on.. I think we are seeing that happening here, too.
 
catseye said:
Those were flying when the composition of the air was different. Nothing these days can fly at that size. So the interesting question still remains as to why people see things that big flying around? It can't be with the eyes, because something BIG flying around will attract attention from anyone in the district, the same as a low flying aircraft. So they must have 'seen' it differently, and since a group appeared to have all seen it together - what was operating at that place to cause such a thing?
Click to expand...
More recently we have had birds with 23-25 foot wingspan, Argentavis magnificens and Pelagornis miocaenus but i think we are barking up the wrong tree here. If we are indeed dealing with paranormal entities than the whole too heavy to fly question goes out of the window. Paranormal entities do things they should not be able to do, from ghosts and UFOs to monsters. I think other people didn't see it because it was a cold December night and nobody else was around.
 
lordmongrove said:
I think other people didn't see it because it was a cold December night and nobody else was around.
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If it  was paranormal, entities seem to be selectively visible, much like ghosts. Some people will witness the occurrence, and others will see nothing unusual. Witnesses seem to be selected for their experience.
 
lordmongrove said:
More recently we have had birds with 23-25 foot wingspan, Argentavis magnificens and Pelagornis miocaenus but i think we are barking up the wrong tree here. If we are indeed dealing with paranormal entities than the whole too heavy to fly question goes out of the window. Paranormal entities do things they should not be able to do, from ghosts and UFOs to monsters. I think other people didn't see it because it was a cold December night and nobody else was around.
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I'm just being pernicketty here, but wingspan does not equate to size of bird. There are many birds with incredible wingspans, but none of the actual birds themselves are exactly huge, and not six feet long. So there's a big difference between a creature six feet long and a creature with a six foot wingspan.

None of which is anything to do with the subject in hand, however.
 
catseye said:
I'm just being pernicketty here, but wingspan does not equate to size of bird. There are many birds with incredible wingspans, but none of the actual birds themselves are exactly huge, and not six feet long. So there's a big difference between a creature six feet long and a creature with a six foot wingspan.

None of which is anything to do with the subject in hand, however.
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Dragons, as depicted in legend, are mostly bloody huge and could not fly with the muscular power of their wings. Peter Dickinson in his 1979 book The Flight of Dragons, came up with a theory that they manipulated hydrogen gas in the stomach in order to fly using the wings to steer. It's a neat theory and book though he makes them too fragile in his efforts to get them off the ground. Dragons are infamously hard to kill. I think most dragon sightings from the year dot to now are of paranormal entities to which such restrictions don't apply.
 
lordmongrove said:
Dragons, as depicted in legend, are mostly bloody huge and could not fly with the muscular power of their wings. Peter Dickinson in his 1979 book The Flight of Dragons, came up with a theory that they manipulated hydrogen gas in the stomach in order to fly using the wings to steer. It's a neat theory and book though he makes them too fragile in his efforts to get them off the ground. Dragons are infamously hard to kill. I think most dragon sightings from the year dot to now are of paranormal entities to which such restrictions don't apply.
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If you Google for medieval depictions of dragons, you will see that they are shown as reptilian/serpentine things but are way smaller than say a crocodile.
These images are fairly typical:

dragon2.gif
dragon3.gif


They are also usually shown being skewered by a knight, and depictions rarely show them as having anything more than unfeasibly small vestigial wings which don't look capable of flight.
I understand that legendary Chinese dragons were larger and more powerful, but the European ones seem pretty pathetic and never stood a chance against a well-armed knight.
 
catseye said:
I'm just being pernicketty here, but wingspan does not equate to size of bird. There are many birds with incredible wingspans, but none of the actual birds themselves are exactly huge, and not six feet long. So there's a big difference between a creature six feet long and a creature with a six foot wingspan.

None of which is anything to do with the subject in hand, however.
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Dragon Flight Analyzer

A fuzzy logic system to determine if, and how well, a dragon might be able to fly:

https://ciscwww.cs.queensu.ca/courses/cisc467/Samples/Dragon Flight Analyzer.pdf

maximus otter
 
blessmycottonsocks said:
If you Google for medieval depictions of dragons, you will see that they are shown as reptilian/serpentine things but are way smaller than say a crocodile.
These images are fairly typical:

View attachment 84456View attachment 84457

They are also usually shown being skewered by a knight, and depictions rarely show them as having anything more than unfeasibly small vestigial wings which don't look capable of flight.
I understand that legendary Chinese dragons were larger and more powerful, but the European ones seem pretty pathetic and never stood a chance against a well-armed knigts
blessmycottonsocks said:
If you Google for medieval depictions of dragons, you will see that they are shown as reptilian/serpentine things but are way smaller than say a crocodile.
These images are fairly typical:

View attachment 84456View attachment 84457

They are also usually shown being skewered by a knight, and depictions rarely show them as having anything more than unfeasibly small vestigial wings which don't look capable of flight.
I understand that legendary Chinese dragons were larger and more powerful, but the European ones seem pretty pathetic and never stood a chance against a well-armed knight.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...

blessmycottonsocks said:
If you Google for medieval depictions of dragons, you will see that they are shown as reptilian/serpentine things but are way smaller than say a crocodile.
These images are fairly typical:

View attachment 84456View attachment 84457

They are also usually shown being skewered by a knight, and depictions rarely show them as having anything more than unfeasibly small vestigial wings which don't look capable of flight.
I understand that legendary Chinese dragons were larger and more powerful, but the European ones seem pretty pathetic and never stood a chance against a well-armed knight.
Click to expand...
There is a reason for that artistic trend. The dragon represented paganism and the knight Christianity. Hence the dragon was depicted as being small as it was being driven out. Look at most old paintings of St George and you will see that the dragon is about as big as an Alsatian dog. But if you read actual descriptions of them from centuries past they are actually huge, powerful and hard to kill. They defeat and kill knights and even groups of armed men, destroy buildings, kill and eat cows and other livestock, often carrying them off. The dragon that killed Beowulf was described as 50 feet long and that was not particularly big. Many also had self healing powers like the dragon of Longwitton.
 
blessmycottonsocks said:
If you Google for medieval depictions of dragons, you will see that they are shown as reptilian/serpentine things but are way smaller than say a crocodile.
These images are fairly typical:

View attachment 84456View attachment 84457

They are also usually shown being skewered by a knight, and depictions rarely show them as having anything more than unfeasibly small vestigial wings which don't look capable of flight.
I understand that legendary Chinese dragons were larger and more powerful, but the European ones seem pretty pathetic and never stood a chance against a well-armed knight.
Click to expand...
That's made me feel sad for the pathetic dragons and I might start a charity whereby for £3 a month it'll all be grand for the rescue dragons
 
maximus otter said:
Dragon Flight Analyzer

A fuzzy logic system to determine if, and how well, a dragon might be able to fly:

https://ciscwww.cs.queensu.ca/courses/cisc467/Samples/Dragon Flight Analyzer.pdf

maximus otter
Click to expand...

That was actually quite an interesting read although, as the author acknowledges, applying real-world physics to imaginary creatures, is of questionable value.
I liked the comparisons between dragons and extant sizeable birds, namely the albatross and swan which, in its very rare black form can look quite otherworldly:

swan.gif


And the conclusion that, if a flesh and blood dragon were a sizeable reptilian creature, similar to a 3 metre Komodo Dragon, it would require wings with a span in excess of 8 metres to be a viable flyer - unlike this whimsical mock-up:

dragon3.gif


Obviously, if we're talking about paranormal creatures, as Lord M suggests, then all bets are off as it's as useless trying to apply the laws of physics to them as it would be to ghosts, UFOs or deities.
 
lordmongrove said:
The dragon that killed Beowulf was described as 50 feet long and that was not particularly big.
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Wasn't Beowulf itself a Christian allegory though, with the dragon representing Satan?
A 50ft devil/dragon is far bigger than the swan-sized dragons in early European artwork.
 
blessmycottonsocks said:
Wasn't Beowulf itself a Christian allegory though, with the dragon representing Satan?
A 50ft devil/dragon is far bigger than the swan-sized dragons in early European artwork.
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It was translated from Swedish into English, i don't know about it being a Christian allegory though there was a mention of Grendel the troll being a descendent of Cain though this may have been added by the translator as happened allot. As i mentioned above in medieval bestiaries they are described as the largest of all living things and they preyed on elephants. The dragons described in legend are huge and often killed the heroes who fort them as at Aller, Bisterne, Loschy Hill, Slingsby, and Kellington. Some dragons were so vast they coiled round hills a number of times.
 
lordmongrove said:
It was translated from Swedish into English, i don't know about it being a Christian allegory though there was a mention of Grendel the troll being a descendent of Cain though this may have been added by the translator as happened allot. As i mentioned above in medieval bestiaries they are described as the largest of all living things and they preyed on elephants. The dragons described in legend are huge and often killed the heroes who fort them as at Aller, Bisterne, Loschy Hill, Slingsby, and Kellington. Some dragons were so vast they coiled round hills a number of times.
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As far as I know, it was not translated from Swedish. It was written in Anglo-Saxon, quite possibly from an orally-transmitted epic. The dating and language are complex, harking back to ancestral memories of tribal homelands now in northern Germany and Denmark. The most likely origin is a tale that was sung in the longhalls for generations before it was written down, with a pagan origin. Later scribes added a Christian influence, but the text seems to have been copied and adapted in various Anglo-Saxon kingdoms.
 
SimonBurchell said:
As far as I know, it was not translated from Swedish. It was written in Anglo-Saxon, quite possibly from an orally-transmitted epic. The dating and language are complex, harking back to ancestral memories of tribal homelands now in northern Germany and Denmark. The most likely origin is a tale that was sung in the longhalls for generations before it was written down, with a pagan origin. Later scribes added a Christian influence, but the text seems to have been copied and adapted in various Anglo-Saxon kingdoms.
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Oh sorry i thought it had been translated before it was written down. I stand corrected. I do think the Christian stuff was added in just like the sin of fishing on a Sunday was probably added to the Lambton Worm story.
 
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