What Exactly Did Les Dawson See Re. Sid James' Ghost?

Hmm, I've just re-read my post about Williams' spastic bowel/IBS and it reads as if I was saying that gay people must be promiscuous.
I didn't mean that and was actually addressing the humorous comment about Williams being interested in bums.

Joe Orton wrote about Williams' sexual habits in his diaries. It seems Williams wasn't much into the wild rampaging sort of adventures Orton enjoyed. Half a dozen blokes silently pleasuring one another in gloomy underground London public toilets, that sort of thing.
 
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The plaster on my finger (needed after I foolishly splatted it trying to knock a broken piece of key out of the lock barrel) came loose and I thought 'Hmmm, I may have to put another on later!'

This suddenly brought back a powerful memory of being a kid and only being allowed ONE plaster per injury. If it fell off I couldn't ask for another.

Used to Sellotape them on and all sorts, and can particularly remember once sewing a flappy bit closed with green embroidery thread that I found in a drawer.

When I had my own children I'd stock up with a wide variety of plasters and dressings and encourage the kids to use however many they needed. Not sure if I knew why, it just seemed right.
 
The thread cannot exist without this:

DmIDCjPXsAA4wsU.jpg


Possibly the finest art the Western world has ever produced. Thank you David Plankton, for making sure this masterpiece saw the light of day - thank you.
 
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I have a very elderly friend who used to write material for Les and knew him very well. I shall ask him if he knows anything about what Les may have seen...

He knows a number of very scurrilous tales about old Northern WMC 'turns' and will tell them if fed enough Shiraz.
 
escargot said:
Joe Orton wrote about Williams' sexual habits in his diaries. It seems Williams wasn't much into the wild rampaging sort of adventures Orton enjoyed. Half a dozen blokes silently pleasuring one another in gloomy underground London public toilets, that sort of thing.
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He both envied and intensely disliked Charles Hawtrey for his promscuity. If you watch Fantabulosa (Michael Sheen yet again in an uncannily accurate impersonation of Williams) it really encapsulates Ken's neuroses and hang-ups, as well as his physical problems. He largely despised his own public persona, too, but knew it was his fortune.

Back to Les Dawson, from what I've read about him he was both liked and respected by his peers, and had a great deal of integrity. Unlike a lot of stand-ups he was stable and happy in himself with a settled home-life. So for him to say he'd experienced something (if indeed he did say he had) he was probably being straight.
 
When Les Dawson was doing panto seasons in Manchester he'd often have fish and chips brought in for the crew on a Saturday, when - back in the day - there'd often be three shows, and little time to get out for grub. it wasn't so much the generosity of the act that was remembered, even years later, but the fact that Les would then sit down with the crew and eat his own dinner alongside them - which is considered absolute class.
 
catseye said:
I have a very elderly friend who used to write material for Les and knew him very well. I shall ask him if he knows anything about what Les may have seen...

He knows a number of very scurrilous tales about old Northern WMC 'turns' and will tell them if fed enough Shiraz.
Click to expand...
It would be great if we could shed more light on Les's experience.

As for the other tales, I'd love to hear some, if you feel able to share. Plenty of good years laid up in the Troll's Head Shiraz cellars, or so I understand.
 
Naughty_Felid said:
The thread cannot exist without this:

DmIDCjPXsAA4wsU.jpg


Possibly the finest art the Western world has ever produced. Thank you David Plankton, for making sure this masterpiece saw the light of day - thank you.
Click to expand...
I love those pictures Tom Selmen uses for his stories.
 
escargot said:
Joe Orton wrote about Williams' sexual habits in his diaries. It seems Williams wasn't much into the wild rampaging sort of adventures Orton enjoyed. Half a dozen blokes silently pleasuring one another in gloomy underground London public toilets, that sort of thing.
Click to expand...

I'm no psychiatrist, but whenever Williams mocked his father's lack of education, unrefined tastes and unrepentant homophobia, or boasted of how his own considerable wealth managed allowed him to exert some control over him, or emphasised his fierce affection for his mother, it only seemed to emphasise how greatly he lived in the man's shadow.

The poor bastard probably was probably racked with guilt over his sexuality and craved the approval that their vitriolic relationship guaranteed he would never receive.

But did he murder him? (See below):
https://www.carryon.org.uk/articles20.htm

Edit: Russell Davies' take:

Screenshot 2020-05-14 at 00.33.12.png
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Source:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Kenneth-Wi...ywords=kenneth+williams&qid=1589383265&sr=8-1
 
I was reading about Les and discovered he had written a novel called A Time Before Genesis - from the subject matter Les must have had Fortean interests
A Time Before Genesis (1986)


by Les Dawson


The rare book shown above (try getting hold of a copy) is Les Dawson’s only serious work of fiction. It provides a disturbing insight into the mind of the late comedian. Its thesis is that the earth has, for millennia, been controlled by alien forces who have had a hand in everything from the Maya to the Miners’ Strike; in its magisterial sweep the book takes in the Spanish Inquisition, the rise of Hitler, the Kennedy assassination, Glastonbury, the Second Coming, cigarettes stubbed out on the eyeballs (twice), various scenes of sexual mutilation, the projected collapse of the EEC in 1989 and the Sino-Russian war of 1992.
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https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/surprising-literary-ventures-14-october-2006
 
Comfortably Numb said:
Does this article, from the Sunderland Echo, maybe help with the background story?

The Carry On star, the on-stage tragedy - and the reason Les Dawson refused to set foot in Sunderland Empire

When Sid James took to the stage at Sunderland Empire 44 years ago today, he was one of the most recognisable faces in the country.

https://www.sunderlandecho.com/news...son-refused-set-foot-sunderland-empire-636199
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The final sentence from the article is poorly written "Dawson, supposedly, vowed never to set foot in the Empire again and apparently proved as good as his word until his death four years later. " That makes it sound like when he was dead he went back to the Empire!
 
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Comfortably Numb said:
Does this article, from the Sunderland Echo, maybe help with the background story?

The Carry On star, the on-stage tragedy - and the reason Les Dawson refused to set foot in Sunderland Empire

When Sid James took to the stage at Sunderland Empire 44 years ago today, he was one of the most recognisable faces in the country.

https://www.sunderlandecho.com/news...son-refused-set-foot-sunderland-empire-636199
Click to expand...

Back to Tom Slemen again. The only other mention seems to be from Sid's biography, as mentioned by @sdoig in post number 8. I was hoping there would be a few more sources out there.
 
Spookdaddy said:
When Les Dawson was doing panto seasons in Manchester he'd often have fish and chips brought in for the crew on a Saturday, when - back in the day - there'd often be three shows, and little time to get out for grub. it wasn't so much the generosity of the act that was remembered, even years later, but the fact that Les would then sit down with the crew and eat his own dinner alongside them - which is considered absolute class.
Click to expand...
I worked with someone who knew Les Dawson very well. At social gatherings apparently he was hilarious, but made sure he never stole the lime light. He would jokingly flirt and banter with her and was generous to everyone. She described him as an absolute gentleman. Great loss.
 
Ok, since this thread has come alive, I dug out my copy of the book I was talking about - can I get away with some quotes? - if not then - mods - feel free to delete as you wish. I'm finding this interesting, particularly as I suspect arms and legs have been added to the tale over the years!

Its called 'Sid James' by Cliff Goodwin -1995

The last page is an epilogue - "Les Dawson walks on to the stage of Sunderland's Empire Theatre to open his show. He appears subdued, lacking his usual bubbly confidence. Several members of the audience - which includes a large party of schoolchildren - notice that the comic is shaking. He looks over his shoulder into the wings; he seems to be pushing the show along eager for it to be over.

After the show, Dawson collects his things from his dressing room and leaves. He is strangely silent.

It is the last booking he accepts from the Empire. He flatly refuses to return. Pleas from the theatre management to include the theatre in future tours are turned down.

"Nothing would tempt me to return to that theatre" He tells a friend "And certainly not in the dressing room. What I experienced in that room will stay with me for the rest of my life."


On 26 april 1976, only minutes before he died, that same dressing room had been occupied by Sid James."
 
Back in the 90's, when I used to work as a production carpenter installing theatre sets, I must have been to Sunderland maybe three or four times. The stories associated with places like the Liverpool Empire (a faceless gentleman who hovered around front of house and had allegedly scared the living shite out of a guy I knew back then) and Bath (the haunted butterfly - associated with a piece of scenery that hung in the grid and could never be moved, on pain of much horribleness) were well known on the circuit, probably even to those who had never been to the places; but oddly, despite my love of a good ghost story, most theatre crews love of putting the wind up visitors, and most theatre managements love of a good bit of publicity, I don't recall ever hearing the Sid James story at the time.

If my memory serves me okay, I think the Mel James mentioned in the newspaper article was quite legendary - an ex-para, whose brother (Ernie, I think, and also ex-forces, and rumoured ex-SAS...I also think) worked at the Hull New Theatre and was equally legendary - and also responsible for the most brutal off the cuff put down I've ever heard in my life, delivered to a professional Glaswegian hard-case with a nasty reputation and a very high opinion of his own invincibility. Unfortunately it's unrepeatable - not so much for the rude words, but for the implied criticism of certain of the citizens of a nation which, although not my own, I hold close to me heart. (But it did make me choke on my coffee. And it's a fine thing to see a hard-man square up, have a bit of a think, and then take a step back - because he's just entertained the possibility that he might not in fact be the hardest bastard in the room.)

Ah, those were the days. Backstage theatre was as close as you could get to running away to sea without getting your feet wet.
 
stu neville said:
He both envied and intensely disliked Charles Hawtrey for his promscuity. If you watch Fantabulosa (Michael Sheen yet again in an uncannily accurate impersonation of Williams) it really encapsulates Ken's neuroses and hang-ups, as well as his physical problems. He largely despised his own public persona, too, but knew it was his fortune.

Back to Les Dawson, from what I've read about him he was both liked and respected by his peers, and had a great deal of integrity. Unlike a lot of stand-ups he was stable and happy in himself with a settled home-life. So for him to say he'd experienced something (if indeed he did say he had) he was probably being straight.
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All good points. Sheen is just an awesome actor isn't he!
Poor Kenneth, with his bowel problem. Even if he'd wanted to indulge in wild carnal wickedness he couldn't.
 
sdoig said:
Ok, since this thread has come alive, I dug out my copy of the book I was talking about - can I get away with some quotes? - if not then - mods - feel free to delete as you wish. I'm finding this interesting, particularly as I suspect arms and legs have been added to the tale over the years!

Its called 'Sid James' by Cliff Goodwin -1995

The last page is an epilogue - "Les Dawson walks on to the stage of Sunderland's Empire Theatre to open his show. He appears subdued, lacking his usual bubbly confidence. Several members of the audience - which includes a large party of schoolchildren - notice that the comic is shaking. He looks over his shoulder into the wings; he seems to be pushing the show along eager for it to be over.

After the show, Dawson collects his things from his dressing room and leaves. He is strangely silent.

It is the last booking he accepts from the Empire. He flatly refuses to return. Pleas from the theatre management to include the theatre in future tours are turned down.

"Nothing would tempt me to return to that theatre" He tells a friend "And certainly not in the dressing room. What I experienced in that room will stay with me for the rest of my life."


On 26 april 1976, only minutes before he died, that same dressing room had been occupied by Sid James."
Click to expand...

Screenshot 2020-05-15 at 05.39.26.png


Large extracts available here:
https://books.google.co.kr/books?id...pAhVG7WEKHa96AoUQ6AEIJzAA#v=onepage&q&f=false
 
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