What Exactly Did Les Dawson See Re. Sid James' Ghost?

[Paul_Exeter]

This has always been one of my pet mysteries, but one that we’ll never get a definite answer too.

Les being a highly prolific romance novelist is a fantastic detail to his career (and didn’t he also pen some speculative sci-fi at one point, too?)

His second wife is apparently still alive and they had a daughter:

"Tracy Dawson happens to be the second wife of LesLawson [sic]. They married in 1989 but divorced in 1993. The couple gave birth to Charlotte Dawson"

https://abtc.ng/who-is-tracy-dawson-top-facts-about-les-lawsons-wife/

Awful typos, so here is a better source:

https://www.express.co.uk/showbiz/t...wife-tracy-dawson-charlotte-dawson-death-loss

So is it possible he told them about his experience in Sunderland?

 

[gordonrutter]

One that might interest anyone from the FT publishing team: the current edition of Psychic News (dated August 2023) has sort of covered the Sid James ghost story.

I say "sort of" covered, as their article, on page 52 and attributed to "John West", appears to have lifted wholesale from the original coverage in Fortean Times and just seems to be an abbreviated version of the FT story. I know this is hard to prove and on a previous incident where an FT story appeared to have been pirated for a national newspaper (as opposed to syndicated with permission), one of the FT staffers who post here just sighed with deep resignation and said "it's one of those things", as if this goes on a lot and isn't worth pursuing. But as I said then... it'd be really nice, as well as courteous, if they at least acknowledged the source!

Message passed on.

 

[AgProv]

Thanks! Having had the opportunity to re-read FT's original text - reproduced earlier on this thread - I'm still wondering. At what point does something cross the line from being a "research source" or "background reading" and then becomes plagiarism? Just enough changes in terms of vocabulary have been made for it to be - arguably - original copy. But on the other had, the PN piece does feel as if the author has lifted the relevant paragraphs from FT's Forum piece on Les Dawson, and altered them just enough for them to be able to have plausible deniability. And that name... "John West". It's almost as if this is a by-line along the lines of "Alan Smithee" or "Phil Space". Or I could be wrong and there is some poor unfortunate out there who shares his name with a popular brand of canned seafood produce.

Reminds me of listening to Steve Wright's show on Radio Two: he did those "factoids", soundbite stories with a "stranger than truth" feel. After a while you just knew somebody on his production team read FT - so many of them were lifted from the sidebar columns in recent editions of FT.... (He could have been going to the original newspaper sources, but when three or four in a row were so familiar I went back to a recent copy of FT to check - no doubt about it. He could have been reading them out of FT)

 

[gordonrutter]

Thanks! Having had the opportunity to re-read FT's original text - reproduced earlier on this thread - I'm still wondering. At what point does something cross the line from being a "research source" or "background reading" and then becomes plagiarism? Just enough changes in terms of vocabulary have been made for it to be - arguably - original copy. But on the other had, the PN piece does feel as if the author has lifted the relevant paragraphs from FT's Forum piece on Les Dawson, and altered them just enough for them to be able to have plausible deniability. And that name... "John West". It's almost as if this is a by-line along the lines of "Alan Smithee" or "Phil Space". Or I could be wrong and there is some poor unfortunate out there who shares his name with a popular brand of canned seafood produce.

Reminds me of listening to Steve Wright's show on Radio Two: he did those "factoids", soundbite stories with a "stranger than truth" feel. After a while you just knew somebody on his production team read FT - so many of them were lifted from the sidebar columns in recent editions of FT.... (He could have been going to the original newspaper sources, but when three or four in a row were so familiar I went back to a recent copy of FT to check - no doubt about it. He could have been reading them out of FT)

Hang on - I'm a bit unsure here - has the material in PN been taken from the Magazine or from this forum? The two are completely separate entities.

Thanks

 

[AgProv]

Hang on - I'm a bit unsure here - has the material in PN been taken from the Magazine or from this forum? The two are completely separate entities.

Thanks

Apologies, I suspected the magazine was the source for the PN Article and may have inspired it - there's a regular FT magazine feature headlined as "FORUM" and the original Les Dawson/Sid James material was under this heading. Sorry for confusion.

 

[gordonrutter]

Apologies, I suspected the magazine was the source for the PN Article ad may have inspired it - there's a regular FT magazine feature headlined as "FORUM" and the original Les Dawson/Sid James material was under this heading. Sorry for confusion.

Ok cool thanks. I just wanted to check I hadn't handed something on to the Magazine that was relevant to us, so yes I sent it to the right place.

Thanks

 

[Paul_Exeter]

Thanks! Having had the opportunity to re-read FT's original text - reproduced earlier on this thread - I'm still wondering. At what point does something cross the line from being a "research source" or "background reading" and then becomes plagiarism? Just enough changes in terms of vocabulary have been made for it to be - arguably - original copy. But on the other had, the PN piece does feel as if the author has lifted the relevant paragraphs from FT's Forum piece on Les Dawson, and altered them just enough for them to be able to have plausible deniability. And that name... "John West". It's almost as if this is a by-line along the lines of "Alan Smithee" or "Phil Space". Or I could be wrong and there is some poor unfortunate out there who shares his name with a popular brand of canned seafood produce.

Reminds me of listening to Steve Wright's show on Radio Two: he did those "factoids", soundbite stories with a "stranger than truth" feel. After a while you just knew somebody on his production team read FT - so many of them were lifted from the sidebar columns in recent editions of FT.... (He could have been going to the original newspaper sources, but when three or four in a row were so familiar I went back to a recent copy of FT to check - no doubt about it. He could have been reading them out of FT)

Steve Wright was into the US 'National Enquirer' magazine (he was married to an American back then) and got many of his 'space alien' stories from there, so there may have been some crossover perhaps?

 

[catseye]

Heard another of John's 'dodgy act' stories today, whereby he shared a bottle of whisky with Matt Munroe, who drank the majority, went out to do his act and fell off the stage...

 

[AnonyJ]

His second wife is apparently still alive and they had a daughter:

"Tracy Dawson happens to be the second wife of LesLawson [sic]. They married in 1989 but divorced in 1993. The couple gave birth to Charlotte Dawson"

https://abtc.ng/who-is-tracy-dawson-top-facts-about-les-lawsons-wife/

Awful typos, so here is a better source:

https://www.express.co.uk/showbiz/t...wife-tracy-dawson-charlotte-dawson-death-loss

So is it possible he told them about his experience in Sunderland?

I remember Les Dawson dying at the age of 62, leaving a younger second wife, a baby daughter and his children from his first marriage - he was never divorced though. His first wife died from cancer in 1986.

 

[AgProv]

Steve Wright was into the US 'National Enquirer' magazine (he was married to an American back then) and got many of his 'space alien' stories from there, so there may have been some crossover perhaps?

Can't rule it out; but when Wrighty read out four Factoids that had also appeared in what was then a recent edition of FT, one after the other, and I could sit there and verify this as it happened, then you begin to think "hmmm..."

 

[Ghost In The Machine]

Heard another of John's 'dodgy act' stories today, whereby he shared a bottle of whisky with Matt Munroe, who drank the majority, went out to do his act and fell off the stage...

Almost all my dad's musician's gossip consisted of who had to get drunk before they'd get onstage lol. Although he was usually playing already before they came on, so was never drinking with them. And wasn't a drinker. They'd line drinks up for him across the top of the piano but he didn't drink it, much. I was only a kid when he talked about the acts so don't remember much but got the impression that for some of them, the musicians felt like it was stage fright. They'd have to get pissed to even get onstage. My dad didn't get stage fright or nerves at all, he just loved playing and was in a world of his own. So you also picked up a slight bit of disgust that they had to get pissed to get onstage.

It's shocking when you realise people on the downwards trajectory so who might have once been in movies, or done large theatre tours, or had their own TV shows, were too scared to go onstage in a little working men's club in the back of beyond, unless they were well fortified. But stage fright is a thing that can overtake anyone. I guess some were plain alcoholics but more often than not, I got the impression that he felt it was stage fright.

 

[catseye]

Almost all my dad's musician's gossip consisted of who had to get drunk before they'd get onstage lol. Although he was usually playing already before they came on, so was never drinking with them. And wasn't a drinker. They'd line drinks up for him across the top of the piano but he didn't drink it, much. I was only a kid when he talked about the acts so don't remember much but got the impression that for some of them, the musicians felt like it was stage fright. They'd have to get pissed to even get onstage. My dad didn't get stage fright or nerves at all, he just loved playing and was in a world of his own. So you also picked up a slight bit of disgust that they had to get pissed to get onstage.

It's shocking when you realise people on the downwards trajectory so who might have once been in movies, or done large theatre tours, or had their own TV shows, were too scared to go onstage in a little working men's club in the back of beyond, unless they were well fortified. But stage fright is a thing that can overtake anyone. I guess some were plain alcoholics but more often than not, I got the impression that he felt it was stage fright.

I'm not sure it was 'stage fright' (except for people like Yootha Joyce), so much as the culture of the time. EVERYONE drank enormous amounts nearly all the time, even when they were on the golf course (according to John) they would drink a bottle of whisky in a day. And we wonder why they're all dead...

 

[Tunn11]

I'm not sure it was 'stage fright' (except for people like Yootha Joyce), so much as the culture of the time. EVERYONE drank enormous amounts nearly all the time, even when they were on the golf course (according to John) they would drink a bottle of whisky in a day. And we wonder why they're all dead...

Interviewer to W.C. Fields: "What would your father say if he knew you drank a bottle of whiskey a day?"
Fields: "He'd say I was a sissy."

 

[Sabresonic]

Interviewer to W.C. Fields: "What would your father say if he knew you drank a bottle of whiskey a day?"
Fields: "He'd say I was a sissy."

Thats good but you can not drink a bottle of whiskey playing Rugby etc

 

[Ghost In The Machine]

I'm not sure it was 'stage fright' (except for people like Yootha Joyce), so much as the culture of the time. EVERYONE drank enormous amounts nearly all the time, even when they were on the golf course (according to John) they would drink a bottle of whisky in a day. And we wonder why they're all dead...

That too! It was a drinking environment in a drinking culture. But doing something that is your work, you're more likely to want to be firing on all cylinders, I'd guess? Mind you, maybe they were drinking because they'd been on TV/in movies and were now on the downwards slope doing a turn at a working men's club, alongside the up and coming acts nobody had heard of yet or might not ever hear of. That must have been hard to handle. Reading between the lines though, I felt that with some at least, they had to get tanked up before they could get on the stage at all.

 

[Stormkhan]

I know for a fact that The Pogues, esp. McGowan usually performed pissed.
As far as the drink being part of the circuit, this might be true. After all Roy Castle blamed his cancer on all the years he spent playing in smokey Jazz clubs.

 

[escargot]

After all Roy Castle blamed his cancer on all the years he spent playing in smokey Jazz clubs.

Yup, I saw Castle discussing that on TV. Parkinson perhaps?
His act involved playing the trumpet in the clubs so he'd have to take a deep breath before starting. At the time the air in the clubs would be thick with smoke. He believed he'd acquired the lung cancer through passive smoking.

 

[hunck]

Being pissed as a musician certainly won’t improve your playing & won’t do anything for co-ordination/timing between brain & fingers. A ‘light refreshment’ can be OK though.

Some other drugs will have a less deleterious effect in this respect. If you banned records in which drugs were used by the participants you’d lose a sizeable percentage, possibly a majority.

A singer could probably get away with being pissed more than a musician.

It must also depend on the kind of music you’re doing - if it’s a set of stuff you’ve done scores of times & know your parts off by heart it’s probably easier to do it drunk. Also working mens clubs are possibly less critical than other gigs. The audience may be a bit pissed as well.

 

[catseye]

Being pissed as a musician certainly won’t improve your playing & won’t do anything for co-ordination/timing between brain & fingers. A ‘light refreshment’ can be OK though.

Some other drugs will have a less deleterious effect in this respect. If you banned records in which drugs were used by the participants you’d lose a sizeable percentage, possibly a majority.

A singer could probably get away with being pissed more than a musician.

It must also depend on the kind of music you’re doing - if it’s a set of stuff you’ve done scores of times & know your parts off by heart it’s probably easier to do it drunk. Also working mens clubs are possibly less critical than other gigs. The audience may be a bit pissed as well.

John was a stand up comedian in the days when a 'turn' lasted about half an hour, and you did two 'turns' a day, one in the morning show and one in the evening. He told me about a comedian who was asked to do two 'turns' one evening because another act didn't show up, so he got up and did the exact same act as he'd done about an hour earlier - because they only knew one routine.

And they would normally go on stage sober and then drink themselves insensible in the dressing room after the act, although there were plenty who just drank heavily all day.

 

[Cochise]

Being pissed as a musician certainly won’t improve your playing & won’t do anything for co-ordination/timing between brain & fingers. A ‘light refreshment’ can be OK though.

Some other drugs will have a less deleterious effect in this respect. If you banned records in which drugs were used by the participants you’d lose a sizeable percentage, possibly a majority.

A singer could probably get away with being pissed more than a musician.

It must also depend on the kind of music you’re doing - if it’s a set of stuff you’ve done scores of times & know your parts off by heart it’s probably easier to do it drunk. Also working mens clubs are possibly less critical than other gigs. The audience may be a bit pissed as well.

Hmm. Getting pissed before going on stage is not helpful, although a shot of Dutch courage is sometimes needed for some folk to get there in the first place. Drinking while playing - I've been in more than one pub band - doesn't seem to affect one until after, I guess it's countered by the adrenaline. One pub that let us play for free beer struck out for paying us after a couple of weeks. None of the people in bands I played in were into drugs other than the odd joint at a party. I don't do illegal drugs due to losing a close mate to heroin and also seeing the effect of drugs on people of my son's generation. He'd probably argue I'm just as bad on booze.

I recall watching Peter Hamill - Van Der Graaf Generator - swigging neat gin throughout a performance.

 

[Stormkhan]

Still recall watching Axl Rose stagger of the stage, wheezing, take a couple of gulps from an oxygen cylinder (it was marked as such at least ) then crack on with another couple of songs before repeating his 'intake'.
Rock 'n' roll, eh?

 

[hunck]

Still recall watching Axl Rose stagger of the stage, wheezing, take a couple of gulps from an oxygen cylinder (it was marked as such at least ) then crack on with another couple of songs before repeating his 'intake'.
Rock 'n' roll, eh?

Helium - it’s how he hits the high notes.

 

[hunck]

Hmm. Getting pissed before going on stage is not helpful, although a shot of Dutch courage is sometimes needed for some folk to get there in the first place. Drinking while playing - I've been in more than one pub band - doesn't seem to affect one until after, I guess it's countered by the adrenaline. One pub that let us play for free beer struck out for paying us after a couple of weeks. None of the people in bands I played in were into drugs other than the odd joint at a party. I don't do illegal drugs due to losing a close mate to heroin and also seeing the effect of drugs on people of my son's generation. He'd probably argue I'm just as bad on booze.

I recall watching Peter Hamill - Van Der Graaf Generator - swigging neat gin throughout a performance.

I’m not saying no-one gets hammered then performs - plenty have, Shane McGowan being but one example, but you couldn’t do it regularly for long. He doesn’t look too well these days..

I remember seeing Davey Graham years ago - somewhat legendary & influential acoustic guitarist & purported to be the inventor of DADGAD tuning, in a small folk club. He’d been in the wilderness & out to lunch for years mainly due to booze I think but also heroin. He’d been resurrected by a young man/fan who looked after him & got him back functioning to some extent & doing some gigs. He had quite a North African/Arabic flavour to his playing in the sort of scales he used, which was unusual in his heyday of the 60s, & probably unique for a young white solo guitarist.

Everyone in the audience were supportive & rooting for him, wishing him well on his reappearance & he had flashes where his playing was practically as good as it ever was, then he’d lose track somewhere it’d fall apart. Sometimes he’d get back onto some sort of track, other times he’d come to a halt. He barely said anything & what he did say was indecipherable. He did manage to do about an hour though. Before he came on I saw him down a pint of Guinness in a matter of a few seconds.

A bit sad to say the least but a memorable night.

 

[Cochise]

I’m not saying no-one gets hammered then performs - plenty have, Shane McGowan being but one example, but you couldn’t do it regularly for long. He doesn’t look too well these days..

I remember seeing Davey Graham years ago - somewhat legendary & influential acoustic guitarist & purported to be the inventor of DADGAD tuning, in a small folk club. He’d been in the wilderness & out to lunch for years mainly due to booze I think but also heroin. He’d been resurrected by a young man/fan who looked after him & got him back functioning to some extent & doing some gigs. He had quite a North African/Arabic flavour to his playing in the sort of scales he used, which was unusual in his heyday of the 60s, & probably unique for a young white solo guitarist.

Everyone in the audience were supportive & rooting for him, wishing him well on his reappearance & he had flashes where his playing was practically as good as it ever was, then he’d lose track somewhere it’d fall apart. Sometimes he’d get back onto some sort of track, other times he’d come to a halt. He barely said anything & what he did say was indecipherable. He did manage to do about an hour though. Before he came on I saw him down a pint of Guinness in a matter of a few seconds.

A bit sad to say the least but a memorable night.

I remember seeing Tony McPhee (Groundhogs) circa 2005 at The Bulkeley on Anglesey. he took two numbers to get his fingers moving, maybe booze, maybe arthritis. but after that he was brilliant. And, because he was a hero of mine, i was prepared to give him the space.

 

[hunck]

I remember seeing Tony McPhee (Groundhogs) circa 2005 at The Bulkeley on Anglesey. he took two numbers to get his fingers moving, maybe booze, maybe arthritis. but after that he was brilliant. And, because he was a hero of mine, i was prepared to give him the space.

First band I ever saw live was the Groundhogs in a youth club in about 1969. They were great!

 

[gordonrutter]

So, Les Dawson and Sid James in Sunderland.

 

[Ghost In The Machine]

I know for a fact that The Pogues, esp. McGowan usually performed pissed.
As far as the drink being part of the circuit, this might be true. After all Roy Castle blamed his cancer on all the years he spent playing in smokey Jazz clubs.

Roy Castle came from just down the road so I bet he may well have played the same circuit my dad was an accompanist on. Never mentioned him but he might not have recognised Roy, as I'm guessing he did it before he was famous.

Pretty sure I saw the Pogues (supporting someone else) and they were truly awful so that explains it...

 

[hunck]

So, Les Dawson and Sid James in Sunderland.

Funnily enough they were both big Groundhog fans as well.

Trouble is, there’s not much more to be said about what Sid James’s ghost may or may not have said to Les or what he saw. The thread is one long diversion from the topic.

 

[Steven]

I'm glad I don't know exactly what Les saw...
*shivers*

 

[hunck]

I'm glad I don't know exactly what Les saw...
*shivers*

Most here would love to know what Les saw but I don’t think we’re going to find out.