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Whatever Happened To Lord Lucan?

Anonymous said:
Maxwell's body was recovered. He was buried on the Mount of Olives - implying special service to Israel. A very different lilo.

Sandra Rivett's murder and the attack on Lady Lucan seems almost Cluedo - esque; gambling aristocrat ex guardsman; Belgravia basement; lead pipe. A case for Sherlock Holmes or maybe Miss Marple. Even the Police involved now seem almost stereotypically baffled and bungling.

I don't think that the investigation ever properly established what really took place that evening. The evidence and statements collected were quite contradictory. None the key statements seem entirely complete.
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I've gone back to the start of the thread to read through it and found this post from 20 years ago. You heard it here first!. :chuckle:
 
I chuckled when I heard the idea that the Cludeo cards were left as a cryptic confession.
Two objections:
1) If Lucan had been caught, the 'cryptic confession' might've been used by the prosecution. So what's the likelihood that he'd leave any form of admission?
2) By all accounts, Lucan was a supremely arrogant person, always relying on his 'luck' to get him out of fixes. Why would he confess at all, for anything?

I could just about stretch to him doing it to taunt the coppers, but it strikes me as so vague, it's not Lucan's style. He'd be more likely to 'do a Biggsy', go to a safe country and send a postcard.
 
Still reading the thread, up to page two out of six...

First observation: the seventh Lord Lucan seems to descend from a line of delightful human beings. Members of the Irish peerage who saw what was coming in 1922 and fled to Britain with the loot; the most eminent prior Lord Lucan got the nickname "The Exterminator" because he welcomed the Irish Famine hitting his lands and weeding out the subhumans, so that he didn't have to sustain them with even the smallest amount of cash. He even closed the local workhouse as an un-necessary drain on his resources. After distinguishing himself with his part in losing a full cavalry brigade in the Crimea (that Light Brigade) he settled in London and a somewhat corrupt (by modern standards) career in politics. So it's likely the foundation of the family wealth came from milking Ireland dry and participating in the halving of its population in the 1840's.

An earlier Lord Lucan - also a nice guy
 
Spookdaddy said:
It was the 70's. If there was no-one obvious to beat the shit out of, then they had to get help wherever they could.

REGAN: SO - WHAT HAVE WE GOT HERE?

CARTER: Looks like Mr Cheddar the Cheesemonger made a right mess of Mrs Potts the Painters Wife, sir.

REGAN: THAT’S HAPPY FAMILIES YOU MORON! WE’RE NOT BLOODY VICTORIANS. WHERE’S THE BLOODY CLUEDO GONE?

CARTER: Stop shouting.

REGAN: I CAN’T
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And there's a problem.

The police doing the initial investigating had to go easy. It's not as if they were policing scruffy trade unionists or leftie scum on a demo. it wasn't as if they were getting suspected Irish terrorists to confess, or stopping black people on sus.

These were very well-connected people. The sort who had the Chief Constable's name (Met Commissioner?) in their address books. The sort who knew Cabinet ministers socially. Provoke complaint from them, and that's your promotion gone. Did you want an OBE at the end of your career, Inspector? We can block that. We can make trouble for you. And you're under Chief Superintendant --------, aren't you? I know he's going to ring me later to ask how your visit went....

No wonder they couldn't get very far!
 
I haven't studied this case for a good while (and the old memory isn't as good as it was) so I need to refresh, but wasn't there a theory that he died and was buried at the Maxwell-Scott house?
 
Found it;

However, there is one theory that places Lucan’s demise closer to home. In the late 1990s, Sussex police received a series of anonymous phone calls from someone who said they had been in the grounds of Grants Hill House on the night of 7th November 1974. The witness claimed to have seen two men shoot a third and dump his body in a cesspit. The caller refused to make a proper statement and the information was not acted upon. As the house had been demolished and the grounds redeveloped in the 1980s, a search for remains would have been difficult; but it might be that Grants Hill House is not only the place of Lucan’s last sighting, but his last resting place.

http://sussexsedition.blogspot.com/2017/11/last-resting-place.html
 
Floyd1 said:
Found it;

However, there is one theory that places Lucan’s demise closer to home. In the late 1990s, Sussex police received a series of anonymous phone calls from someone who said they had been in the grounds of Grants Hill House on the night of 7th November 1974. The witness claimed to have seen two men shoot a third and dump his body in a cesspit. The caller refused to make a proper statement and the information was not acted upon. As the house had been demolished and the grounds redeveloped in the 1980s, a search for remains would have been difficult; but it might be that Grants Hill House is not only the place of Lucan’s last sighting, but his last resting place.

http://sussexsedition.blogspot.com/2017/11/last-resting-place.html
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The information was not acted upon? Then it sounds as though the informant maybe gave the impression they were making it all up, either that or a cursory investigation revealed no cesspit...
 
Floyd1 said:
Found it;

However, there is one theory that places Lucan’s demise closer to home. In the late 1990s, Sussex police received a series of anonymous phone calls from someone who said they had been in the grounds of Grants Hill House on the night of 7th November 1974. The witness claimed to have seen two men shoot a third and dump his body in a cesspit. The caller refused to make a proper statement and the information was not acted upon. As the house had been demolished and the grounds redeveloped in the 1980s, a search for remains would have been difficult; but it might be that Grants Hill House is not only the place of Lucan’s last sighting, but his last resting place.

http://sussexsedition.blogspot.com/2017/11/last-resting-place.html
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So his friends murdered him? I can’t buy that. An anonymous phone call 25 years after the event doesn’t convince me either.
 
I can’t help wondering if the very close proximity of these events to the start of the John Stonehouse affair (like, within a couple of weeks) meant that the two episodes rubbed off against each other in the public mind. Very different cases, but they do share the elements of influential protagonist in severe financial straits, and intriguing disappearance. I wonder if this proximity led to an almost unconscious assumption that what Stonehouse was found to have done, Lucan had probably done.

My own opinion would be that the crime seems too chaotic to indicate a mind ordered enough to organise an effective disappearance, or even submit to being part of one. Suicide seems a much more likely endgame to me.

In regard to the suggestion that he was helped – I can’t help wondering, if there’s anything to this scenario, if Lucan’s confederates might have gone through their very own Kray twins/Frank Mitchell moment, and realised that the person they’d rescued from the long arm of the law was in fact a huge liability that needed to be neutralised. But I'm not convinced.
 
Spookdaddy said:
My own opinion would be that the crime seems too chaotic to indicate a mind ordered enough to organise an effective disappearance, or even submit to being part of one. Suicide seems a much more likely endgame to me.
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I would agree. He even failed to actually kill his wife after all, even though he could have. And given that the motive was supposed to be because he had lost custody of his children, what sort of ordered mind thinks:- "Oh no, I have lost custody of my beloved children and I do not believe this is in their best interest. What would be in their best interest? Oh I know, I will bludgeon their mother to death while they sleep upstairs!"

No. Just doesn't work for me.
 
AgProv said:
Still reading the thread, up to page two out of six...

First observation: the seventh Lord Lucan seems to descend from a line of delightful human beings. Members of the Irish peerage who saw what was coming in 1922 and fled to Britain with the loot; the most eminent prior Lord Lucan got the nickname "The Exterminator" because he welcomed the Irish Famine hitting his lands and weeding out the subhumans, so that he didn't have to sustain them with even the smallest amount of cash. He even closed the local workhouse as an un-necessary drain on his resources. After distinguishing himself with his part in losing a full cavalry brigade in the Crimea (that Light Brigade) he settled in London and a somewhat corrupt (by modern standards) career in politics. So it's likely the foundation of the family wealth came from milking Ireland dry and participating in the halving of its population in the 1840's.

An earlier Lord Lucan - also a nice guy
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Lucan’s wife seems to have been a bit weird as well - apparently she didn’t speak to any of her 3 children for the 30 years before she committed suicide in 2017 & she cut them out of her will entirely, leaving her estate to Shelter.

In the document, released by the probate office, she said: "In view of the lack of good manners and reverence shown to me as their parent, I do not wish any of my three children to benefit from my death any more than they have to."
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Talk about dysfunctional family..
 
Trouble is, you are approaching the relevant situation with an 'uninvolved' eye.
When you have someone unhinged enough to equate "I would kill for the good of my children" to "I will kill my children because it's best for them" then questions must be raised, not only for the situation but for the mental 'world' of the attacker.
"If I can't have her then no one can" as an excuse to kill sounds easy, but it's a nonsensical proposition to the sane: if you love her so much then why kill her?" is the unanswerable question unless you talk of possessiveness.
In Lucan's case, he was raised and received privilege; a world where consequences don't happen. The law is flexible, you can change the narrative. In this case, I'm sure, the thought processes were "I want my children, to continue the 'great' and noble line. You are stopping me? Then you can't - they are my property and I can do anything I wish to take them. Their, and your, wishes are irrelevant. I'm 'Lucky' Lucan and you have no idea what I can do."
 
hunck said:
Lucan’s wife seems to have been a bit weird as well - apparently she didn’t speak to any of her 3 children for the 30 years before she committed suicide in 2017 & she cut them out of her will entirely, leaving her estate to Shelter.


Talk about dysfunctional family..
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Apparently this was because the children did not believe their father was the killer and she of course, did. It is all very sad.

Hold on a minute though, this is very strange..

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Bingham,_7th_Earl_of_Lucan

The scientific examination of the lead pipes found at the murder scene and in the Corsair's boot revealed traces of blood on the pipe from 46 Lower Belgrave Street. This proved to be a mixture of Lady Lucan's (blood group A) and Rivett's (B) blood. Hair belonging to Lady Lucan was also found on that pipe, but none belonging to Rivett. The pipe found inside the Corsair had neither blood nor hair on it. Home Office scientists were unable to prove conclusively that both pipes were cut from the same, longer, piece of piping, although they thought it likely.[93]
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Two lead pipes? Why on earth would he need two?

Is it plausible that Lucan was telling the truth and that he was fitted up for the murder? :thought:
 
Stormkhan said:
In Lucan's case, he was raised and received privilege; a world where consequences don't happen.
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I woud also just say, that, as easy as it is for 'us' to take the mick out of Eaton/Harrow/Winchester etc boys, we have to remember that a lot of them were put on a train at five years old and sent off to boarding schools.

It was basically like being in the army, or certainly was back in the 50s/60/70s/80s (I'm not sure if public schools are as tough now), which, as anyone knows who has done basic training, isn't the easiest way to live.

Surely, that makes a far more 'hardened' person than the average child who went through 'normal' schooling. Remember, this was the era of 'fagging' etc.

My point being that yes, 'honour' (or arrogance) due to what they had been through as a child, could most definitely have played a part either on LL's side or his 'friends'.
 
Min Bannister said:
Apparently this was because the children did not believe their father was the killer and she of course, did. It is all very sad.

Hold on a minute though, this is very strange..

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Bingham,_7th_Earl_of_Lucan



Two lead pipes? Why on earth would he need two?

Is it plausible that Lucan was telling the truth and that he was fitted up for the murder? :thought:
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I suppose it’s possible but not very plausible - if you were innocent would you do a runner, never to be seen again? Seems very unlikely.

According to the wiki page, he’d discussed murdering his wife in drunken conversations with friends

Greville Howard later gave a statement to the police describing how Lucan had talked of how killing his wife might save him from bankruptcy, how her body might be disposed of in the Solent and how he "would never be caught”.
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If he didn’t do it, who was the murderer & what was the motive? Nothing was stolen I believe, no sign of forced entry so either the perpetrator had a key or was known to either the wife or nanny who let them in.
 
A left field hypothesis:

Lady Lucan kills the nanny because she thinks the nanny is having an affair with her husband.

Lord lucan gets home just as the murder is committed/just after the murder is committed, and Lady Lucan attacks him.

He defends himself, hits her, then runs off as he thinks he will get charged regardless.

She then runs to the pub and tells half the story?
 
Victory said:
A left field hypothesis:
Lady Lucan kills the nanny because she thinks the nanny is having an affair with her husband.
Lord lucan gets home just as the murder is committed/just after the murder is committed, and Lady Lucan attacks him.
He defends himself, hits her, then runs off as he thinks he will get charged regardless. ...
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A couple of points ...

The Belgrave home where the murder occurred hadn't been Lucan's residence since circa January 1973, when he moved out and the couple's separation began. He then began a campaign of spying on his wife and lurking around the Belgrave residence. Though he was the owner of the residence, he was in effect a visitor (or intruder) at the time of the murder.

Lucan claimed he'd been outside the residence (in effect, admitting to lurking there at the time of the murder), witnessed the nanny (Rivett) fighting with someone in the basement (kitchen?), and let himself in. The police later established no one could have seen anything occurring in the basement unless they were crouched down at a basement-level window.
 
The following (reported) facts stand out for me:

(1) Sandra Rivett (the nanny) didn't normally work on Thursday nights. She'd switched her night off that week to go out with her boyfriend the preceding night (Wednesday). No one who'd been surveilling the Belgrave home and learning the household's routines would have expected Rivett to be present that evening.

(2) The light bulb in the light fixture at / near the foot of the stairs had been removed and placed on a chair nearby. The police confirmed the light fixture worked fine once the bulb was re-installed.

(3) Lady Lucan was attacked at the top of the stairs, and (allegedly) only became aware of Rivett's murder when her attacker (revealed to be Lord Lucan) confessed to killing Rivett. She then feigned(?) willingness to help Lucan cover up the murder, and Lucan feigned(?) collaboration to clean up his wife so they could proceed with the cover-up. IMHO Lucan was rattled and improvising as best he could once his wife recognized him. Lady Lucan escaped (which may have been her own extemporaneous plan), whereas Lucan himself fled leaving evidence behind (which further suggests he was rattled and improvising after a plan had gone all to hell).

(4) Lucan had made multiple appointments for Thursday afternoon, but never showed up for any of them. He'd made an appointment to meet someone at the Clermont Club at 11:00 that night, and he called to check on the reservation circa 8:30 p.m. (only about a half hour before Rivett was killed). He wasn't preparing to flee that evening, because:
Officers also searched 5 Eaton Row, into which Lucan had moved early in 1973, ... and searched his last address at 72a Elizabeth Street. Nothing untoward was found; on the bed, a suit and shirt lay alongside a book on Greek shipping millionaires, and Lucan's wallet, car keys, money, driving licence, handkerchief and spectacles were on a bedside table.
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Bingham,_7th_Earl_of_Lucan

The scenario that strikes me as fitting these facts and the dismal marital history goes like this:

The recent downturn in his already-desperate financial and personal affairs (bankrupt and a stalker of his own wife) motivated Lucan to eliminate his wife. He set out to attack her in the home to which he still had access. After checking on his 11:00 Clermont reservation he undertook his plan, having traveled to the home site in a borrowed car (the Ford).

The planned attack was an ambush in the basement, facilitated by removing the light bulb at the bottom of the stairs to obtain a darkened kill zone. He viciously attacked the woman who'd walked into his ambush, only to realize he'd killed the nanny who was normally not in the house on Thursday evenings. This realization broke his plan and completely rattled him.

When his originally intended target came to the top of the stairs he began improvising - attacking her, screwing up by having her recognize his voice, then trying to gain her sympathy and cooperation in covering up what he confessed he'd done. The odds of success (in covering up ... ) diminished even further owing to his interaction with his daughter, whose statement would be read at the inquest.

When he discovered his wife had escaped he'd lost even that slim hope of covering up the murder, so he fled without returning to his own residence, gathering his wallet (ID; passport; etc.) and making his planned 11:00 rendezvous at the Clermont. The letters he wrote before abandoning the Ford and disappearing entirely were further attempts to notify others of necessary facts (e.g., the upcoming auction of some assets) during an exit into oblivion (either exile or death) that circumstances (and his own bungling) had rendered unavoidable to as arrogant and self-absorbed a jerk as he obviously was.
 
EnolaGaia said:
The police later established no one could have seen anything occurring in the basement unless they were crouched down at a basement-level window.
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Like a man stalking his wife you mean?

hunck said:
I suppose it’s possible but not very plausible - if you were innocent would you do a runner, never to be seen again? Seems very unlikely.
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You would if you already knew Veronica thought it was you who did it and would tell everyone. It does indeed look very very bad for him.
hunck said:
According to the wiki page, he’d discussed murdering his wife in drunken conversations with friends
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People do do this sometimes. It also meant that he would be even easier to fit up for the murder.
hunck said:
If he didn’t do it, who was the murderer & what was the motive? Nothing was stolen I believe, no sign of forced entry so either the perpetrator had a key or was known to either the wife or nanny who let them in.
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Lucan would not have had a key either as they were seperated and it was very acrimonious. Letting him in doesn't work as if Sandra had let him in, he would have known she was there and wouldn't have killed her. Lady Lucan did not let him in or she would have said.

Lucan was in a great deal of debt. He almost certainly was involved with some very shady types. He talked openly about murdering his wife. How easy would it be to put a piece of pipe in his borrowed car (the police may not look too closely or assume he had cleaned it up), kill Lady Lucan then let the police go straight to Lord Lucan since he is the obvious suspect?

EnolaGaia said:
The planned attack was an ambush in the basement, facilitated by removing the light bulb at the bottom of the stairs to obtain a darkened kill zone. He viciously attacked the woman who'd walked into his ambush, only to realize he'd killed the nanny who was normally not in the house on Thursday evenings. This realization broke his plan and completely rattled him.
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She had already made the tea though as the cups and saucers were found on the floor. So he was hiding in the basement, watched her make the tea, then killed her? If there was enough light to make tea, there was enough light to recognise (or not) the woman he had been married to for 10 years.
From the Wikipedia page;-
At the foot of the stairs, two cups and saucers lay in a pool of blood.
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Floyd1 said:
I woud also just say, that, as easy as it is for 'us' to take the mick out of Eaton/Harrow/Winchester etc boys, we have to remember that a lot of them were put on a train at five years old and sent off to boarding schools.

It was basically like being in the army, or certainly was back in the 50s/60/70s/80s (I'm not sure if public schools are as tough now), which, as anyone knows who has done basic training, isn't the easiest way to live.

Surely, that makes a far more 'hardened' person than the average child who went through 'normal' schooling. Remember, this was the era of 'fagging' etc.

My point being that yes, 'honour' (or arrogance) due to what they had been through as a child, could most definitely have played a part either on LL's side or his 'friends'.
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I've always known of the hot house element of the rearing of the wealthy and titled. I consider it part and parcel of the trouble we have of our class-based ruling/governmental system. Bottom line is, once only the landed gentry could afford to educate their children and it was these who were 'bred to rule'. Don't underestimate the ingrained idea that the upper class were 'genetically' predisposed to rule over others. In the other classes, a posh accent and an entitled background was enough to conclude "they're not like us puny mortals". The Great War then the Second World war changed this. But the deeply ingrained class system is still there, with the possession of wealth being a bigger tell of class than actual lineage.
In 1974, I was 10 and given the opportunity for a fully-paid grant to go to a 'posh' boarding school, all the ones in my area of London being the usual state schools. My parents considered that the choice of school be left to me as "you're the one going to live there". Consequently, we viewed four different 'suitable' schools. One stuck in my mind in particular as it had a communal bathroom of 10 individual baths and dorms of 15 at a time! I settled on the last which was a private, and very progressive, boarding school where the dorms started at a mix of 2 and 6-berth dorm rooms, turning to individual rooms as you got older. But I can attest to the 'military-feel' of many places at the time ... and this was in the 70's. Just read the childrens books of Anthony Buckerage Jennings series, and Blyton's Mallory Towers to get the idea - and they weren't based on the public schools of the elite!
Lucan's sense of entitlement was nothing unusual to his time or class - but it must be considered a factor in the case. Why confess or come forward for a crime, innocent or not, when you know deep down that your entitlement will get you off?
 
Min Bannister said:
... She had already made the tea though as the cups and saucers were found on the floor. So he was hiding in the basement, watched her make the tea, then killed her?
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Without knowing the layout of the stairs, kitchen, etc., I don't know whether removing the light bulb in the light at the bottom of the stairs had any effect on the kitchen illumination. It conceivably could have been the case that removing the light bulb darkened the area at the foot of the stairs alone, and this was the intended ambush zone. If so, he may have been hiding somewhere out of sight and assumed the adult who'd come down to the kitchen must be his wife.

Min Bannister said:
If there was enough light to make tea, there was enough light to recognise (or not) the woman he had been married to for 10 years. ...
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This is the part that bugs me the most. There are accounts that claim Rivett and Lady Lucan were of similar height and build, differing mainly in hair color. Rivett is cited as being one dress size larger than Lady Lucan. I don't see much resemblance, and I've never seen specifics (e.g., height, weight) by which to compare the two women. I've been unable to locate photos or descriptions concerning the two women's hair length and styling as of the fatal night.
 
EnolaGaia said:
It conceivably could have been the case that removing the light bulb darkened the area at the foot of the stairs alone, and this was the intended ambush zone. If so, he may have been hiding somewhere out of sight and assumed the adult who'd come down to the kitchen must be his wife.
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Yes, this is true. I believe there are floor plans somewhere on one of the LL websites.
EnolaGaia said:
This is the part that bugs me the most. There are accounts that claim Rivett and Lady Lucan were of similar height and build, differing mainly in hair color. Rivett is cited as being one dress size larger than Lady Lucan. I don't see much resemblance, and I've never seen specifics (e.g., height, weight) by which to compare the two women. I've been unable to locate photos or descriptions concerning the two women's hair length and styling as of the fatal night.
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Yes and I can imagine that the first bop on the head could happen mistakenly but all the others? And poor Sandra was said to have been punched in the face as well. I guess it depends how dark it was.
 
I can certainly see why the late Barry Halpin fell under suspicion of being Lucan:

lucan1.png
lucan2.png

As for the latest suspect, unfortunately neither The Guardian nor anyone else seems to have a photo of this 87 year-old living in a Buddhist community in Australia, although I expect journalists are rushing there this very moment.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...ord-lucan-hunt-continues-48-years-after-nanny

https://www.theguardian.com/media/2016/feb/07/lord-lucan-lucky-journalists-world-expenses
 
blessmycottonsocks said:
I can certainly see why the late Barry Halpin fell under suspicion of being Lucan:

View attachment 60574View attachment 60575
As for the latest suspect, unfortunately neither The Guardian nor anyone else seems to have a photo of this 87 year-old living in a Buddhist community in Australia, although I expect journalists are rushing there this very moment.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...ord-lucan-hunt-continues-48-years-after-nanny

https://www.theguardian.com/media/2016/feb/07/lord-lucan-lucky-journalists-world-expenses
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I like the way it goes from:

"It's him," he is quoted as saying in the Daily Mirror. “That isn’t opinion, that’s a fact” to... contacted by the Guardian, Ugail said: “I can’t 100% confirm it’s Lord Lucan. It looks remarkably like him – it’s worth investigating further.”

Either the Mirror over-egged the original quote (my vote) or Ugail is backtracking a little...

(Has anybody ever checked our Lord Lucan, which would be the ultimate example of hiding in plain sight?!)
 
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