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Where Will Our Clean Energy Come From?

I was reading a piece t'other day about some millionaire architect and his wife who had spent a couple of years designing and building their super-efficient eco-home.
Insulated with earthen banking at the sides and with extra thick walls, triple glazed windows, heat-pumps for heating, extra insulation wherever possible, a grass-covered roof, a wind-turbine, solar panels, etc etc etc etc
Right at the end of the article it mentioned that they had also installed a 'mainly decorative' log-burning stove for those occasional days in the winter when the heating systems couldn't quite cope.

I expect that log-burning stove will be in operation quite a bit more than they were expecting, possibly from around mid October all the way through to April.
 
Trevp666 said:
I was reading a piece t'other day about some millionaire architect and his wife who had spent a couple of years designing and building their super-efficient eco-home.
Insulated with earthen banking at the sides and with extra thick walls, triple glazed windows, heat-pumps for heating, extra insulation wherever possible, a grass-covered roof, a wind-turbine, solar panels, etc etc etc etc
Right at the end of the article it mentioned that they had also installed a 'mainly decorative' log-burning stove for those occasional days in the winter when the heating systems couldn't quite cope.

I expect that log-burning stove will be in operation quite a bit more than they were expecting, possibly from around mid October all the way through to April.
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Well since they have heat pumps for heating, I'd hazard a guess at the log burner not getting that much use.

But let's have a go at bloody eco conscious architect millionaires eh?
 
I think heat pumps are only efficient if they’re a specially designed system for your particular home. I’ve been reading about lots of heat pumps that struggled to adequately heat the rooms during winter. There’s also other considerations involving insulation of the home causing condensation problems, people in listed buildings not being able to install double glazing and the sheer phew! cost of the new boilers.
 
I can imagine there could be problems with retro fitting heat pumps to old buildings but would assume a millionaire architect building an eco house from scratch would do his research.

Must say I haven't actually looked into how successful/effective they are in new build houses designed for them & whether people are pleased with the resulting heating, or whether there's downsides.

Expense would certainly be one, but if you're a millionaire architect, not so much.
 
hunck said:
I can imagine there could be problems with retro fitting heat pumps to old buildings but would assume a millionaire architect building an eco house from scratch would do his research.

Must say I haven't actually looked into how successful/effective they are in new build houses designed for them & whether people are pleased with the resulting heating, or whether there's downsides.

Expense would certainly be one, but if you're a millionaire architect, not so much.
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But the point of it all was the ‘millionaire architect’ found the heat pump system ‘couldn’t quite cope’ at times. If millionaire architects can‘t adequately heat their homes with the technology…. what hope do the rest of us unmillionaires (who’ll have to pay through the nose for the systems - and contribute to the whole project infrastructure through taxation) have once we’re committed to it?
 
I have a cunning plan to link up all the Peloton users to the National Grid thus solving all our energy issues in one fell swoop.
seriously though Ethical Consumer had an issue dedicated to clean energy and i am not sure heat pumps are going to be able to do it for a lot of properties. Well worth a read . Some sort of hybrid solution with solar and backup batteries might be the future, but we might have to wait for the battery technology to get a bit better first
 
I remember a comic book from WAY back in which there was a race of hyper-intelligent beings (foot-high foreheads, so you know they're really smart, right?) who powered their civilization purely by mental energy. Was it Atlantis? I don't remember. Anyway, all citizens were required to spend a certain amount of time hooked up to the grid via EEG terminals attached to their really amazing foreheads. Everything was apparently peachy until one of their number developed a persecution complex or something and worked himself into such a blazing rage that he blew everything up. Mental energy, see?

Luckily, humanity doesn't seem to have much to worry about on that front . . .
 
Analogue Boy said:
But the point of it all was the ‘millionaire architect’ found the heat pump system ‘couldn’t quite cope’ at times. If millionaire architects can‘t adequately heat their homes with the technology…. what hope do the rest of us unmillionaires (who’ll have to pay through the nose for the systems - and contribute to the whole project infrastructure through taxation) have once we’re committed to it?
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I remember reading many years ago, about heat extraction from water which is first pumped deep underground, which then is cycled back up as heated water to the surface. Would that be the same system, or would that be the more modern solar, or making heat from waste type methods?
 
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Analogue Boy said:
But the point of it all was the ‘millionaire architect’ found the heat pump system ‘couldn’t quite cope’ at times. If millionaire architects can‘t adequately heat their homes with the technology…. what hope do the rest of us unmillionaires (who’ll have to pay through the nose for the systems - and contribute to the whole project infrastructure through taxation) have once we’re committed to it?
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Fair enough. Heat pumps maybe not a clever idea then. You've clearly looked into it more than me, having never been in the market for one. I'll admit to jumping in with no knowledge on the subject whatsoever. I'm not aware of any plans to force their use, it seems fairly niche at the moment.
 
I’ll probably be dead before all this kicks in but there’s a push to get rid of gas too. Cookers and hobs.

To reduce these emissions the committee has said new-build homes should be banned from connecting to the gas grid.
Instead of gas hobs these homes could be equipped with electric induction hobs and homes could be warmed using heat pumps.
An induction hob produces heat using copper wire coils which create an electro-magnetic field underneath a glass ceramic surface.
Heat is only produced when a pan with a magnetisable base is placed on the cooking surface - pans made of copper or aluminium will not work.
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https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-47320673

My house is ten years old and one of the issues is in the kitchen, where if there’s too many things plugged in, it has a tendency to trip the fusebox. I am about on the managing edge now.
I have a gas hob and would probably have to find a new cooker and hob to match future specifications. Maybe I’d have to get the wiring redone and the central heating is gas so I don’t know how it’s all going to be converted. I imagine the cost to be huge and I can’t see the government paying for the necessary conversion needed for every house in the country.

An imminent deadline may be great but I don’t think the implications and all the little details* have been considered.

*Ask a tradesman for a quote on a little detail.
 
More on heat pumps…

Electric heat pump​

If you have an electric heat pump that runs on “green” (renewable) electricity, there are no CO2 emissions. But for all heat pumps to do so, it does mean that sufficient green power needs to be available. That’s not a given.

The use of heat pumps increases demand for electricity. On average electricity demand will jump from 3500 kWh now to 5000 kWh (on the assumption of 40% lower energy use), i.e. 50%.

Currently in the Netherlands only 12% of the electricity produced is green. Over 80% of electricity comes from fossil sources (coal and gas) and the rest from nuclear power and other sources.

If the heat pump works on fossil-fuel based electricity, CO2 emissions will amount to 925 kilos on average per house. That is 40% less than if a gas-fired condensed boiler were used. In other words, the production of green power must be expanded considerably to make electric heat pumps CO2-free.

Electric heat pumps have other disadvantages. They are quite expensive – including installation and low-temperature radiators the purchase price varies between 9,000 and 19,000 euros. An electric heat pump that uses outside air is cheaper on average than an electric heat pump that uses heat and cold storage. Moreover, electric heat pumps can only be used in well-insulated houses. An electric heat pump does not deliver high enough temperatures for houses that are not well insulated.

Hybrid heat pump​

The hybrid heat pump is much more affordable than its electric counterpart: between 4,000 and 8,000 euros. Its efficiency, however, strongly depends on the temperature of the outside air. If that gets below 12° C, which happens quite a lot in the Netherlands, its efficiency is strongly reduced and natural gas has to be burned, on average between 20% and 50%.

The production of green gas must be scaled up drastically. At this moment a mere 0.2% of Dutch gas is green
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How much CO2 is saved with a hybrid heat pump partly depends on how much green electricity is used, and on the type of gas that is used. If green power and biogas or “green hydrogren” is used, the hybrid pump is CO2 neutral. But if 50% natural gas is burned and the pump uses “grey” electricity, emissions are some 1200 kg CO2 per year, which amounts to a saving of just 20%.

In other words, the emission reduction from hybrid heat pumps will remain limited if no additional investments are made in the production of green power and green alternatives for natural gas.

https://energypost.eu/a-revolution-the-netherlands-kisses-gas-goodbye-but-will-it-help-the-climate/
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Remember…. You’ll probably be having to charge the car(s) in winter too.
 
Sid said:
heat extraction from water which is first pumped deep underground
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I think that sounds more like 'geothermal' systems.
Proper 'geothermal' systems use heat directly from natural sources like hot springs, geysers and volcanic hot spots. They do not require any 'ground loop' and rely upon natural thermal difference in areas with a larger amount of volcanic activity, in places like Iceland.
Large scale 'geothermal' power stations take advantage of the naturally available heat occurring relatively close to the surface to heat water and power turbines.

Whereas ground source heat pumps (GSHPs) absorb heat from below the surface of the earth, but they aren’t technically geothermal.
There is nuance to this term, which has been muddied by incorrect terminology over many years.
(You can consider ground source heat pumps to be mechanically like air conditioners, but using groundwater or simply soil to cool the condenser instead of an outside coil and fan. It therefore uses electricity to move the heat energy from one place to the other.)
 
No, a heat pump is no the same as using geothermal for heating.

Gas might have it's downsides but having everything in your house run on electricity seems like a risky move. In case of a powercut, you lose everything, heating, cooking, light.
 
Sid said:
And Gas fridges.:)
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Even in the 2000s I remember that part of the Corgi and later Gas-safe assessment courses included testing gas tumble driers. Mind you I would draw the line at the Edwardian bath I saw once which featured a gas burner beneath it to keep the water hot - poached anyone I wonder?
 
Xanatic* said:
No, a heat pump is no the same as using geothermal for heating.

Gas might have it's downsides but having everything in your house run on electricity seems like a risky move. In case of a powercut, you lose everything, heating, cooking, light.
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Mind you, most gas appliances, even hobs and fires, now have electronic ignition and controls so still wouldn't work without electricity.
I was in the heating industry for many years and installed a few heat pumps -mainly on swimming pool heating at the time. I haven't looked into the latest ones too much but the main thing with them was the time to heat from cold. OK for heating a pool which takes ages anyway but in a house, if you were used to a gas boiler it would take some getting used to and different method of control.
Speaking to someone recently who runs a big heating company, he said there is some research as to whether having a number of heat pumps running relatively close together would cause problems with collective 'humming' when they are all producing low down noise on a similar frequency. Personally I wouldn't want one just yet.
I quite like the Hydrogen boiler idea - I remember seeing a prototype design once which worked with Hydrogen peroxide (I think) crystals which created heat virtually instantly when wet but only for a short time -this one had a very small gas burner just to dry the crystals so the cycle could continue -very quick heat up times but a bit volatile I would think.
 
Also, if there’s a move to get rid of gas, that also means boilers and conversion to heating in business premises too surely. Pity the people who have to convert their homes and their shops, garages and offices too.
 
Apparently, the best solution is to have a heat pump to heat your house when the weather is warm and have a proper boiler for when it gets cold in winter.
Madness.

How a heat pump works in cold temperatures​

It's no surprise that air source heat pumps perform at their best during warmer weather. This is because there's more heat in the air to extract and use to heat the rooms of a home.

With the temperature sitting above freezing, an air source heat pump has the potential to meet all demands for heating and hot water. However, lower outdoor temperatures can mean a lower heat output from the heating system and it can be a good idea to have a back-up heating system. This is where hybrid heating systems come in.

A hybrid heating system pairs a renewable heating system, such as a heat pump, with a traditional boiler. While heat pumps can be used all year round, they're most effective during the summer months. During the winter however, a boiler would be more efficient.

Hybrid heating systems intelligently switch between these 2 heating systems depending on which would perform most efficiently at that time.
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https://www.boilerguide.co.uk/articles/use-heat-pump-winter
 
Analogue Boy said:
Apparently, the best solution is to have a heat pump to heat your house when the weather is warm and have a proper boiler for when it gets cold in winter.
Madness.
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There is no joined-up thinking going on.
It's time that a proper scientist stood up and said 'this is all bollocks'.
 
Heat pumps run on electricity. So that’s all our normal electricity use, plus phones, pads, laptops and other peripherals charging as well as all our heating and the cars that’ll need charging as soon as we get home. I’m willing to bet in future, electricity costs will surge annually like a rail commuter’s season ticket. Outages and street blackouts will be common as the national grid melts and fails on a regular basis.* I’m also willing to bet that once electric cars are established, ownership, congestion charges or road tax prices will be introduced to make up for the shortfall in petrol and diesel fuel duty.

Where will all this electricity come from?

*All electric. No heat in the home. No gas to cook on.

Someone. Please convince me this has been thought through clearly and isn’t just an expensive rash promise made on our behalf but we‘ll all have to pay for.
 
New low carbon houses for rent in Wales

Short video. I'm assuming heat pumps used + solar but no real details though..

The Welsh government plans to make 20,000 available to rent by 2026 in an effort to tackle a housing shortage and greenhouse gas emissions.

Spending on social housing for rent in 2021-22 is to be doubled, with ministers committing £250m to the project.
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Mythopoeika said:
Let's just hope they're not cold in the winter.
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The woman briefly interviewed says they're cool in summer & comfortable in winter as "you've got the heating coming from the ceiling, with no radiators"

I'm not sure what she means by heating from the ceiling or whether the heating is underfloor..
 
hunck said:
The woman briefly interviewed says they're cool in summer & comfortable in winter as "you've got the heating coming from the ceiling, with no radiators"

I'm not sure what she means by heating from the ceiling or whether the heating is underfloor..
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Surely that not very practical seeing as heat rises :dunno:
 
It's Wales - maybe she has access to some dragons to breathe fire onto them in the winter.
 
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