Where Will Our Clean Energy Come From?

[Sid]

The woman briefly interviewed says they're cool in summer & comfortable in winter as "you've got the heating coming from the ceiling, with no radiators"

I'm not sure what she means by heating from the ceiling or whether the heating is underfloor..

I think what she meant to say was - with heat coming from the roof with no radiators. Which it isn't of course, as it's collected via the Solar Panels upon the roof!

 

[hunck]

I think what she meant to say was - with heat coming from the roof with no radiators. Which it isn't of course, as it's collected via the Solar Panels upon the roof!

That's my assumption too & presumably heating is underfloor since there's no radiators..

No details as to how effective heating from them is in winter or whether extra heating is required, only the woman saying it's comfortable.

 

[Tempest63]

A few years back there was a trend for commercial heat pumps in certain buildings, the ones I recall working on were in colleges. The idea is the gas in them is so cold it can draw heat from any temperature higher than itself, so it can effectively draw heat in sub-zero temperatures.
I presume they were not that successful as the seemed to disappear after a couple of years.

The principal is, I believe, the same in domestic heat pumps.
https://www.worcester-bosch.co.uk/products/heat-pumps/explained

 

[Giant R]

A few years back there was a trend for commercial heat pumps in certain buildings, the ones I recall working on were in colleges. The idea is the gas in them is so cold it can draw heat from any temperature higher than itself, so it can effectively draw heat in sub-zero temperatures.
I presume they were not that successful as the seemed to disappear after a couple of years.

The principal is, I believe, the same in domestic heat pumps.
https://www.worcester-bosch.co.uk/products/heat-pumps/explained

I was taken to see one about 5 years in an hotel somewhere in the North London area I think, it was a French design and massive, with two fitted in a carpark beneath the building -it had been installed a couple of years then and supplied all the hot water for the building. The owner said it was much more economical than the old gas boiler had been and was reliable but cost a massive amount to install compared to conventional systems. I can't remember exact details but it was a fairly big hotel with around 25 bedrooms.
I remember having a meeting with the rep from France and he was really keen and knew a lot about the concept but was struggling to convince customers that they were worth the extra cost.

 

[Mythopoeika]

I was taken to see one about 5 years in an hotel somewhere in the North London area I think, it was a French design and massive, with two fitted in a carpark beneath the building -it had been installed a couple of years then and supplied all the hot water for the building. The owner said it was much more economical than the old gas boiler had been and was reliable but cost a massive amount to install compared to conventional systems. I can't remember exact details but it was a fairly big hotel with around 25 bedrooms.
I remember having a meeting with the rep from France and he was really keen and knew a lot about the concept but was struggling to convince customers that they were worth the extra cost.

They're really only worth the cost of installation in multi-occupancy building.
Uneconomic for small houses.

 

[Sid]

They're really only worth the cost of installation in multi-occupancy building.
Uneconomic for small houses.

So, worthwhile for the people that can easily afford it, yet totally untenable for those that cannot?

 

[Mythopoeika]

So, worthwhile for the people that can easily afford it, yet totally untenable for those that cannot?

Yes.

 

[Giant R]

They're really only worth the cost of installation in multi-occupancy building.
Uneconomic for small houses.

Totally agree. Also large buildings are more likely to have a suitable space for them where noise would not be a problem. The ones I saw were very efficient extracting heat judging by the amount of frost on the heat exchanger on a hot summer day. Another problem could be that, if installed in a row of terraced houses there could be a collective 'hum' if they are all operating at the same time producing noise on a similar frequency.

 

[Trevp666]

Times was that in some cities around the world the production of heating was centralised to one location.
AFAIK it is common in Iceland where the geothermal heating is used from one central station and then dispersed to local properties.
Wasn't it also common in the US (I dunno if it still is) for steam to be generated and then piped to properties, hence the ubiquitous pictures of US cities with steam coming from vents in the pavement etc.
And the ancient Romans weren't shy of a hypocaust - okay that was mostly more for an individual property but I expect that larger ones existed for bigger buildings.
Therefore, moving that idea forward, wouldn't it make sense for governments or local councils etc to invest in larger, more efficient, 'heat pumps' to serve local communities? These could then be sited in separate buildings so that the 'hum' or other noises would not bother anyone.

 

[Mythopoeika]

Times was that in some cities around the world the production of heating was centralised to one location.
AFAIK it is common in Iceland where the geothermal heating is used from one central station and then dispersed to local properties.
Wasn't it also common in the US (I dunno if it still is) for steam to be generated and then piped to properties, hence the ubiquitous pictures of US cities with steam coming from vents in the pavement etc.
And the ancient Romans weren't shy of a hypocaust - okay that was mostly more for an individual property but I expect that larger ones existed for bigger buildings.
Therefore, moving that idea forward, wouldn't it make sense for governments or local councils etc to invest in larger, more efficient, 'heat pumps' to serve local communities? These could then be sited in separate buildings so that the 'hum' or other noises would not bother anyone.

There are engineering problems associated with centralised, shared heating. Always leaks.
I used to work on a small science park years ago. This place had steam pipes in covered channels all over the roads and walkways between buildings. The heating was always breaking down because the steel pipes would rust or the seams would fail, so the maintenance guys were always pulling off the walkway covers to fix things. Steel pipes aren't the best thing to use, but what else is available?

 

[Giant R]

There are engineering problems associated with centralised, shared heating. Always leaks.
I used to work on a small science park years ago. This place had steam pipes in covered channels all over the roads and walkways between buildings. The heating was always breaking down because the steel pipes would rust or the seams would fail, so the maintenance guys were always pulling off the walkway covers to fix things. Steel pipes aren't the best thing to use, but what else is available?

Yes, I've worked in hospitals with the same kind of problem. Steam heating needs very high pressure of course. I think the communal heating mentioned in Trevp666's post above was quite widespread in the former Soviet Union. I worked with several Polish tradesmen who said it was common in Poland in blocks of flats.

 

[Trevp666]

small science

What, nano-science stuff?*
* No, I know, I'm just being funny

but what else is available

Well, once you rule out stuff like lead or clay pipes you have to start thinking about modern materials like polymers/plastics of various sorts, or other more advanced stuff I guess like carbon fibre etc.
It can't be 'beyond the wit of man' to come up with stuff that doesn't leak, and modern control systems, which will adequately do the job, surely?

 

[Analogue Boy]

What, nano-science stuff?*
* No, I know, I'm just being funny


Well, once you rule out stuff like lead or clay pipes you have to start thinking about modern materials like polymers/plastics of various sorts, or other more advanced stuff I guess like carbon fibre etc.
It can't be 'beyond the wit of man' to come up with stuff that doesn't leak, and modern control systems, which will adequately do the job, surely?

But the whole point of these measures and hoops we’ll have to jump through is to create a better environment. Using more plastics and polymers would surely be a hypocritical move from those seeking to phase out the use of fossil fuels.
Carbon fibre is based on oil and the process for making it isn’t clean.

Carbon fiber is manufactured by refining oil to obtain acrylonitrile and then spinning this acrylonitrile and baking the spun yarn. Due to the high baking temperature of 1000℃ or more, 20 tons of CO2 are emitted to manufacture 1 ton of carbon fiber.

The issue I have with parts of the green movement is their insistence we all must make changes to our lives based on their own limited ideas as end users of a ‘green’ product. Electric car drivers may turn a blind eye to forced child labour in Africa digging out rare earth elements with their bare hands. They may also fail to make the connection between the plug they put in the car and the need for more power plants on the other end.
Righteous cyclists* may think their mode of transport is clean and green but there’s a grim reality behind a shiny new bike…..

When you bought your last mountain bike, did you inadvertently finance its makers to rape and pillage the earth?
If you bought your bike new, the correct answer is “yes.” Every part of that bike came out of a hole somewhere on earth. If your bicycle frame is made of carbon, that hole is 12 to 30 inches wide and oil comes out of it. If it is aluminum or steel, well, those holes can be seen from space. But, the journey only begins there. There are emissions created by hauling the materials to where they are needed. Trans-continental pipelines, excavation equipment, trains, long-haul trucks, cargo ships, and oil tankers move raw materials to processing plants. Add in the pollution and energy draw of the foundries, refineries and chemical factories that turn raw materials into usable forms, and then realize that the places where metal, plastic, and carbon fiber are made are most likely on a different continent than where your bicycle was manufactured.

If your bike is made from metal, it came from a big hole in the ground. If it is carbon, it came out of an oil well.

Once those materials are produced, an army of container ships continuously ply the globe, dropping off aluminum, carbon fiber, thermoplastic pellets, and steel to the places where frames and components are manufactured. Some of those same ships will then be loaded with containers of bicycles, destined primarily to European and North American populations who are hungry for high tech mountain bikes, but have lost their appetites for the dirty work that is required to create them.

https://www.pinkbike.com/news/alumi...om-fiction-in-the-frame-materials-debate.html

Many of the suggestions and changes to our lifestyle are basically a sop to an angry and sometimes short-sighted green lobby. Our efforts here in the UK will make little difference to the planet as China ramps up production and builds more and more power plants. To those who say every little change can make a difference, I’d suggest they get rid of their Iphones, laptops, TVs and all non-essential electrical goods that need power unless they’re working from home. If they’re committed, they should lead by example and get rid of all their cars and take up public transport as the only form of transport, use an eco-friendly bike manufactured purely in this country or move nearer to your place of work. And stop buying plastic bottles of water.


*not YOU of course.

 

[Trevp666]

Using more plastics and polymers would surely be a hypocritical move from those seeking to phase out the use of fossil fuels.

The thing is, everything has to be made out of something, doesn't it!? Whether that be metals or plastics, the use of other 'rare earth minerals', fossil fuels, etc etc.
Even the adoption of all the recommendations to enable a more environmentally friendly future will require a substantial amount of usage of all those things.
I can't see any way in which wind turbines and electric cars etc etc etc can be produced without them. These things don't just grow on trees.

 

[Mythopoeika]

Whatever the future we end up with, humans are still going to be using fossil fuels such as oil, coal and gas - simply to create certain chemicals. If we want more helium, we need to continue pumping oil. If we want plastic, we still need oil. For certain industrial processes, we still need gas. These industries cannot be shut down completely, unless we decide to live in primitive conditions like our ancestors.

 

[Analogue Boy]

The thing is, everything has to be made out of something, doesn't it!? Whether that be metals or plastics, the use of other 'rare earth minerals', fossil fuels, etc etc.
Even the adoption of all the recommendations to enable a more environmentally friendly future will require a substantial amount of usage of all those things.
I can't see any way in which wind turbines and electric cars etc etc etc can be produced without them. These things don't just grow on trees.

Wind turbines don’t last forever and while the turbine itself can be recycled, the US are using landfill to bury the old carbon fibre blades and there’s thousands of them.

Meanwhile in Europe, wind power’s dirty little secret is getting a lot more exposure…

UNREPORTED EUROPE

Recycling turbine blades: the Achilles heel of wind power​

For some, wind turbines are extraordinary pieces of technology and the answer to our energy needs. For others they are a blot on the landscape and a threat to biodiversity.

One thing is for sure. A storm is brewing over the future of wind power in Europe. The latest controversy concerns the difficulty to recycle turbine blades.

Out with the old, in with the new​

A huge number of wind turbines will soon be dismantled across Europe. But only a small number of these will go because of local opposition from residents. The majority are up for renewal and need replacing as they are part of the first generation of wind turbines that were built in the 1990s.

The process, called repowering, has begun all over Europe. Élisabeth Calenza, a project manager from Engie Belgium, says the new turbines will be far more productive.

In Europe, most blades that are not reused or incinerated, end up in landfill. This image above of a blade graveyard in the US has become symbolic of the darker side of this renewable energy.

“We do not want these blades to end up in landfill."

Only four countries in Europe - Germany, Austria, The Netherlands and Finland - have banned blades being sent to landfill. The leading voice of Europe’s wind energy industry has called for a Europe-wide landfill ban by 2025.

“We do not want these blades to end up in landfill. The blades are admittedly non-toxic and technically, they are landfill safe, but it is a waste of valuable resources and it is incompatible with the wind industry's commitment to full circularity that we should be putting blade waste in landfill,” said Giles Dickson, CEO, Wind Europe.

https://www.euronews.com/2021/06/25...-wind-power-and-the-controversy-engulfing-ren

There are some ingenious recycling solutions to disassembling and repurposing the materials in turbine blades (meaning transportation and pollutants) but perhaps it would have been better if more forethought had been applied instead of rushing to some deadline. ‘Hey! They look great but what happens when we need to replace them?’

 

[Trevp666]

Multiple pun opportunities missed in that report with the exception of "A storm is brewing".

I mean come on....it's just laziness....
The report has 'blown' their cover.
It added a new 'spin' to the story.
Getting the information was a 'breeze'.
etc

 

[Analogue Boy]

Not a big fan.

Or Icarus. When the wings come apart, it gets real messy.

 

[Mythopoeika]

Wind turbines don’t last forever and while the turbine itself can be recycled, the US are using landfill to bury the old carbon fibre blades and there’s thousands of them.

Yep. Example:

 

[Trevp666]

Hundreds of years from now they'll probably be digging this stuff up again.

 

[Sid]

Multiple pun opportunities missed in that report with the exception of "A storm is brewing".

I mean come on....it's just laziness....
The report has 'blown' their cover.
It added a new 'spin' to the story.
Getting the information was a 'breeze'.
etc

They might now get the wind-up!

 

[Mythopoeika]

Hundreds of years from now they'll probably be digging this stuff up again.

It may have reverted back to being oil. There'll be a new oil-rush all over again.

 

[Naughty_Felid]

Yep. Example:

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S1359836821001608

Sorry abstract only but you get the idea.

Abstract​

The development of novel strategies for recycling and reusing fiber composites is driven by various environmental and economic factors. Recycling materials mean that materials are processed with feasible processing methods or environment-friendly methods without deterioration of mechanical or physical performance enabling their reuse. Recycling end-of-life (EOL) waste of wind turbine (WT) blade composites is a critical challenge for renewable energy sector. This paper reviews various recycling methods (mechanical, thermal, chemical, and hybrid) and reuse of reclaimed fiber composites of carbon and glass fibers. Physical, mechanical, and chemical properties of recovered fibers and new composites (made of recovered fibers) have been discussed in detail. This paper aims to find out the optimum recycling process from existing recycling methods to recycle EOL waste of WT blades. Glass fibers (GFs) and carbon fibers (CFs) are energy-intensive to manufacture, which means these have high recycling capability in terms of the environment as well as an economic perspective. Challenges in the recycling of fibers have been identified from the available literature; future research possibilities with promising values of recovered fibers to reuse in some high-value structural applications have been highlighted.

https://www.windpowerengineering.com/tennessee-carbon-fiber-recycling-outfit-can-recycle-100-of-wind-turbine-blades/


Carbon Fiber Recycling has developed a recycling process to recycle many forms of carbon fiber waste. This process has been tested on wind turbine carbon fiber blade waste.

Carbon Fiber Recycling’s process has successfully separated the epoxy matric from the carbon fiber on wind turbine blades, returning the carbon fiber to a useable chopped form used in many different applications. In its process, Carbon Fiber Recycling can use 100% of the waste materials, and nothing goes into the landfill. The epoxy resin is turned into fuel that is recycled back into the facility and used to generate power to run their equipment.

A facility for carbon fiber recycling is currently under construction in Tazewell, Tennessee, and will be completed in the first quarter of 2021. Carbon Fiber Recycling is currently collecting waste materials to recycle at the location. This facility alone will recycle 4 million pounds of waste materials a year.

Visit carbonfiberrecycling.com to find more information on how to recycle wind components.


News item from CFR

 

[Sid]

Yep. Example:

I'm wondering why on earth they are burying them in the first place?
As they are made of carbon - I should imagine it will not break down. Are they discontinued in there use because of twist in the blades?
If they have to dispose of them for the time-being, then why can't they store them stacked in an upright form. At least that way they would take-up far less space, and not involve spreading them the over.
And in any case I believe there was at least one company who were testing ways of converting them into carbon pellets so that they could be used in other forms manufacturing processes? (As I've only just read about in 'Naughty_Felids' thread)

 

[Trevp666]

Any form of long-term storage costs money.
Digging a big hole in the ground and bunging them in it is the lowest cost option.
Out of sight, out of mind.

 

[Nosmo King]

Any form of long-term storage costs money.
Digging a big hole in the ground and bunging them in it is the lowest cost option.
Out of sight, out of mind.

And there is plenty of desert out there, the only thing they have to watch out for is accidentally digging up Jimmy Hoffa's body

 

[Analogue Boy]

Interesting article on the projected costs for new green heating…

https://thecritic.co.uk/issues/august-september-2021/what-will-net-zero-cost/

Determined to get answers about how much Net Zero might cost my constituents, I examined some of the most high-profile cost estimates. But again and again, I was met with a troubling lack of transparency and routine wishful thinking.

First, I went to the Committee on Climate Change (CCC). They are Parliament’s official climate change advisors who are supposed to provide rigorous, independent advice. When the legislation for Net Zero first came through Parliament, they assured ministers that the cost would be about £50 billion per year in 2050, equivalent to 1-2 per cent of GDP. This was described as modest. For comparison, the entire spend of the Ministry of Defence in 2019-20 was £40 billion.

This is the report that ministers wave around and yet no one can test its credibility because no one can see the calculations that underpin it…

…More recently, the CCC has come up with a new estimate for the cost of Net Zero that details £1.4 trillion of capital spending that will be required to meet Net Zero. They were keen not to publicise this extraordinary number, and so discounted it with a range of speculative benefits that may or may not materialise.

The £1.4 trillion figure has been brought to public attention because the Office for Budget Responsibility (OBR) recycled the CCC figures for its fiscal risks report. It means households are each facing a £50,000 bill over the next 30 years.

…Air source heat pumps sadly fail to heat homes to the temperatures we are used to, cost more to run, work particularly poorly in winter, and require large water storage tanks. There is no technology to elegantly replace the gas boiler and I’m yet to find a constituent who would assent to pay out £20,000 to be colder and face higher bills.

The pain doesn’t stop there. The use of electric cars, which are already much more expensive than their petrol equivalents and have the obvious limitations of range and charging, are made more expensive if electricity prices rise to accommodate large amounts of additional offshore wind or expanded reliance on interconnectors from the continent supplying coal-powered electricity.

 

[Trevp666]

It would seem to be the case that in order to manage a 'carbon neutral' future the best type of trees to be planting are Money Trees.

 

[Mythopoeika]

£1.4 trillion?
Forget that!

 

[Sid]

It would seem to be the case that in order to manage a 'carbon neutral' future the best type of trees to be planting are Money Trees.

I've seen those advertised in garden centres. The only problem with them, is that you get very little change throughout the growing season, and they drop their 'notes' very quickly! They are also notoriously late in bearing any ripe fruit, and interest in them usually wanes when they dry-up.