Who Believes In Me?

[Anonymous]

Donna Black corresponded a great deal with Bishop Manchester last century, trying to persuade him that she wasn't a Satanist, but was rather a misunderstood pagan of the Egyptian tradition, etc.

He didn't buy it, especially as she had visited and supported David Farrant who also claimed to be a witch and not a Satanist. It was not long before Black was blackening the bishop's name with Farrant falsehoods and propaganda in her self-produced newsletters. Somehow it all had a familiar ring to it.

So there was no suprise when, in this century, Donna Black "came out" and owned to being a full-blown Satanist, recommending the works of Anton LaVey and the Church of Satan et al on this message board. Now there's a big surprise!!?

At least the bishop refrained from saying: "I told you so!"

 

[Anonymous]

good grief.

 

[Anonymous]

Those Marylin Manson clones can be soo fickle!

 

[Anonymous]

Re: Re: AY??

Actually, we DO have the right.

You are, of course, right Ogopogo.

But everyone here by the same argument has the right to make fun of or dictate to ethnic minorities, gay people and the disabled etc.

Hands up who's prepared to do that?

IMO it's all victimisation and discrimination, religious, ethnic, sexual ...... whatever.

 

[Anonymous]

the limitations of language

"As for putting a curse on someone, it's the old 'pointing bone' trick. Even if the recipient doesn't believe in magic, the idea will play on their negative state of mind until they themselves cause their own 'misfortune'. This often has a snowball effect so that they may become reckless with their own safety, for instance, and crash the car.

I don't throw curses willy-nilly, only if someone is directly being a nuisance to myself, but it hasn't failed so far. And I don't believe in all that pagan/wiccan nonsense about a curse 'returning threefold' or whatever it is these days, because I'm absolutely justified in ridding myself of troublemakers. Any sense of guilt would, indeed, play on my mind and cause the curse to 'backfire' but only for the same aforementioned psychological reasons."
Donna Black.

Thank you Marion - I followed the suggested link and found that the thread is not unlike this one - in that many of the posts seem to create more heat than light. So many differing definitions of the same set of beliefs - and each claiming to be the only right one!

When I was younger, the labels went undisputed - and seemed clear-cut.

For example, the word 'Satan' = the Devil, the enemy of God, whose overthrow he sought by every underhand and evil means, like putting temptations (of every kind) in one's way. If you succumbed, you would go to Hell when you died. No-one, except some 'primitive' peoples abroad, actively worshipped the Devil - and the word 'satanist' is of relatively recent useage.

I chose the above extract from Donna's post, as it exemplified the sort of behaviour I would expect from one choosing Satan over God. But the rest of her posts show her in a very different light - indeed some of her statements read more like Buddhist instructions to 'take total responsibility for your own life', 'justifiable anger', 'avoid people who drain your energy'.

So I am still very confused about satanism, and I haven't even started on the 'wicca/witchcraft/pagan' definitions yet!

Serious point though - if Donna is to be believed and her curses actually did bring about a car-crash, she is hardly likely to make it public - so we will never know if 'satanism' is a viable belief-system, or just 'a word' conjured up to titillate the public's imagination.

Heather.

 

[Anonymous]

To be honest anyone who thinks they are a witch should be burned alive.

Donna should be ashamed of herself for wishing harm on to others. A belief system based on hatred and pain can only lead one way. Burn the witch!

Am I the only one who sees a bit of a double standard going on here?

 

[Jerry_B]

So, no-one sees Anton LaVey and the Church of Satan as some sort of pseudo-theatrical silliness? I remember seeing a CoS ceremony (on TV), and all it did was remind me of a Dennis Wheatley novel. It's really more of an exercise in pseudo-bohemian rebellion as far as I can see.

 

[river_styx]

So, no-one sees Anton LaVey and the Church of Satan as some sort of pseudo-theatrical silliness? I remember seeing a CoS ceremony (on TV), and all it did was remind me of a Dennis Wheatley novel. It's really more of an exercise in pseudo-bohemian rebellion as far as I can see.

I see most anglocised religious ceremonies as pseudo-theatrical silliness. The whole drinking the blood of christ and eating his flesh thing is far weirder than anything satanists get up to.

 

[Anonymous]

"An exercise in pseudo-bohemian rebellion" ~ or no

Anton Szandor LaVey founded the Church of Satan in 1966 in San Francisco, California, on Walpurgisnacht (April 30). LaVey identified his particular brand of Satanism in his book The Satanic Bible (1969). A derivative group, and offspring of the Church of Satan, is the Temple of Set founded by Michael Aquino in 1975.

One of the delusions that will need to be established at the outset is the lie that leading Satanists do not believe in or truly worship the Devil. It should be understood that Anton LaVey, the founder of the Church of Satan, viewed Satan as a true entity that he absolutely worshipped before his death. LaVey deceived a lot of people who joined the Church of Satan by claiming that Satan only represented the repressed forces of nature, but was not a real entity. Interviews with former Charles Manson family member Susan Atkins, who is still in prison after being convicted of eight murders, resulted in Atkins blowing the lid off of LaVey’s lie. As a former associate of Anton LaVey’s, who danced for him and spent personal time with him before joining the Manson family, Atkins was privy to conversations with LaVey before he became popular. Atkins revealed repeatedly that, while LaVey promoted a watered down, almost palatable form of Satanism to the ignorant masses whom he deceived, he acknowledged the exact opposite to her and to his inner core of Satanists in the Church of Satan. Susan Atkins revealed that LaVey told her emphatically, while she was in his home, that they truly worshipped Satan as a real entity and as the one who began the initial rebellion against God. Atkins also stated:

“Anton told me that as a Satanist he does believe in the God of the Bible but he refused to worship Him and made a conscious decision to worship Satan instead.” (Susan Atkins interviewed by Joe Schimmel).

There are pictures of Atkins with LaVey in his ritual chamber when she associated with the Church of Satan. LaVey was aware that few people were ignorant enough to truly turn their lives over to Satan, knowing that they would not only be allowing themselves to be deceived by their worst enemy, but that they would spend eternity in the fiery torments of hell. LaVey, therefore, presented a seeker sensitive, user-friendly form of Satanism in the hope that it might appeal to the masses he was seeking to deceive. LaVey sought to put a spin on Satanism as a kinder and gentler form of Devil worship claiming that Satan merely represents a force in nature, and that, rather than Satanists’ sacrificing animals and little children, they are animal activist who love children. All of this was done to garner unwitting recruits. First and foremost, one should never trust a Satanist. Satanist’s view lying to be among their highest virtues. LaVey and other Satanists serve the one whom Jesus Christ repudiated as “The father of lies”. (John 8: 44). It would be just like the father of lies to cloak his religion in non-reality. Satan has long been about deception and has successfully deceived many recruits into believing that they are simply worshipping a symbol rather than a reality. Satan relishes in such ignorance. Atkins’ testimony that LaVey was deliberately duping Satanists in the outer circle is corroborated by evidence from LaVey’s own admissions. LaVey let his guard down when responding to other Satanists who considered him, “not extreme enough.” LaVey, while in a defensive mode, admitted that the image that he presented publicly was deceptive, declaring:

“If they’re at all intelligent [other true Satanists] … they’ll realize that there’s only so much I can say publicly … I will not advance things in print which make my position untenable … How long would the Church of Satan have lasted if I hadn’t appeased and outraged in just the right combination? It required a certain amount of discretion and diplomacy to balance the outrage.” (Lucifer Rising, p133).

Purposeful deception is needed amongst leading Satanists to enslave those whom they recruit as unscrupulous and unsuspecting pawns who feel more comfortable believing Satan is a symbol for force. Few Satanists realise the evil intentions among the inner core of the cult and how lower initiates are viewed as mere puppets to be used and later discarded. Those in the higher echelon are often aware of the nature of Satan and the demonic realm that they serve. They are often bound and blinded on another level because they have become addicted to the power that Satan deceptively promises. Kenneth Anger, who was a cofounder of the Church of Satan with Anton LaVey, used a similar spin on Satanism, as did LaVey. Kenneth Anger stated in the 1960’s, in his film, Lucifer Rising, that, “Lucifer is the light god, not the Devil.” (Publicity of the jacket for Lucifer Rising). This delusion that Lucifer is really the God of light, and not Satan, should not surprise those familiar with God’s word, which warns that Satan “masquerades” as an “angel of light” to draw the unsuspecting into his evil web. His agents do likewise.

 

[Anonymous]

And let's not forget all the stuff about La Vey and Jayne Mansfield.

 

[Jerry_B]

Hmm - bit of a paradox there. If 'Satanist’s view lying to be among their highest virtues', how can anything LaVey said (in private or not) be considered true? Perhaps his tongue was firmly crammed in his cheek?

LaVey/CoS stuff always comes across as distinctly beatnik occultism. I'd argue that the peculiar brand of 'Satanism' as practiced by certain section of Scandinavian youth is perhaps more dangerous - but mostly to themselves. And seeing as that whole scene has it's roots in a rather jokey band from Yorkshire back in the 1980's, one could say that it too is not an organised form of Satanism in any real way.

 

[Anonymous]

Exo,

You seem to be keen on portraying Satanism as some kind of an important threat. I'm curious as to what it is you think needs to be dealt with. I don't have the slightest interest in defending Satanism, by the way, but why do they deserve so much attention?
If anyone is commiting illegal acts, then it's a criminal/police matter. If it's magick that's the problem, well one Bishop Sean Manchester in FT148:52 writes "if ever you needed empirical evidence that witchraft and/or magic(k) don't work, it is the fact that I am still around to write this to you."
There's the "cult" angle I suppose, leading impressionable young minds astray, but there will always be leaders and there will always be sheep.
Then there's people who commit acts in the name of Satanism, but even if Satanism didn't exist then hormones, mental illness and criminality still would.
So what's the big deal whether a bunch of attention-seeking manipulators at the top of an imaginary heirarchy believe the Devil is real or not? Why should we be concerned?
Personally, I'm more concerned about people who fly planes into office buildings, but unfortunately they do it because some guy tells them God wants them to.
(I'm not blaming God for that one BTW)

And the accusation you level above is a little thin, i.e. your quote

“Anton told me that as a Satanist he does believe in the God of the Bible but he refused to worship Him and made a conscious decision to worship Satan instead.” (Susan Atkins interviewed by Joe Schimmel).

which she might have said, but she's a mass murderer currently doing hard time. Not somewhere I'd go to make a case.

I'm not saying I disbelieve it, but you could level that accusation against any group of people with common beliefs, that "the people at the top believe something far more sinister than the rest." It's like saying those at the top of Christianity don't actually believe in God (though in the case of the CofE it's probably true to an extent). There's no real way to prove it, like any good conspiracy theory.

Anyway, who cares.

The point I'm making is that from what I've seen and learned about it, it really seems to be little more than what someone else described on these message boards as a "support group". Satanists tend to fit a profile. They've had a rough deal and choose to deal with it by being "reactionary", gaining some influence in a hierarchy and indulging in a guilt-free hedonism trip, a bit like a naughty child. Who's to say any of us in the same situation wouldn't do the same thing?
Just because they like scary pictures and old books and pretend to zap people with "magick", or fancy a night of humping in the woods, as long as they don't bother anyone else (which I don't think they do) why not leave them to it? What's the Master Plan?

 

[Anonymous]

Should we take Satanism seriously?

Jack Parsons, a rocket scientist, started a branch of Crowley’s Thelemic Satanism in Pasadena, California. He later changed his name to Belarian Armiluss Al Dajjaj Antichrist, and pledged himself to fulfill the work of the Beast 666, having supposedly been Crowley’s appointed “spiritual son.” Much of present-day American occultism can be traced back to the formation of Parson’s Pasadena chapter of the OTO during World War Two. In March 1946, Parsons was to try to call down the biblical Whore of Babylon into the womb of a living woman by a combination of strenuous copulation and incantation for three days. The female was a member of Ordo Templi Orientis. Keeping detailed records of Parsons unsuccessful black magic rite was friend and scribe Lafayette Ron Hubbard. Four years later Hubbard lay the foundations for his own religious cult, Scientology which, in turn, spawned the DeGrimstons, a British couple who were to establish the overtly satanic Process Church of the Final Judgement that took root in the counter-culture of the early 1960s. Founded by Robert Moore and Mary Anne MacLean, who were later to rename themselves the DeGrimstons, according to their literature, they worshipped a trinity of Jehovah, Lucifer and Satan. The role of Satan as executioner was further expressed in the following utterance by the church: “My prophecy upon this wasted earth and upon corrupt creation that squats upon its ruined surface is: THOU SHALT KILL!” The Process venerated Adolf Hitler and their chosen symbol was four Ps conjoined in a derivative of the swastika. Process literature contained articles on the Black Mass and necrophilia, illustrated with Nazi symbolism. Charles Manson was visited in jail and asked to contribute an article for the “Death” issue of the Process magazine. Author Maury Terry says the Process took inspiration from the Order of the Golden Dawn and Crowley’s OTO.

On 12 February 2001 Henry Bibby (alias Edward Crowley) was sentenced to life imprisonment at the Old Bailey for carrying out a Crowleyite ritual of child sacrifice on an innocent twelve-year-old victim. He was obsessed with the Satanist and changed his name to “Edward Crowley” in 1998. He had stabbed the boy, Diego Pineiro-Villar, over thirty times in Covent Garden, London, on 8 May 2000. Police found a holdall that Bibby had kept with him. It contained a small number of legal documents about his change of name, and a chilling sketch that police believe was drawn a few weeks before the attack. Entitled Delendus Est Pineiro, which roughly translates as “destroy Pineiro,” the pencil diagram makes references to child sacrifice, black magic and Greek mythology. The symbols relate to quotations from Crowley’s works. There are a number of references to child sacrifice. The most notorious came from Aleister Crowley’s Magick in Theory and Practice. It reads: “For the highest spiritual working one must accordingly choose that victim which contains the greatest and purest force. A male child of perfect innocence and high intelligence is the most satisfactory and suitable victim.”

Ordo Templi Orientis, once headed by Crowley, today boasts a membership of three thousand in forty countries, half of whom are in the USA. There are many more rival organisations describing themselves as the OTO. Aleister Crowley held an exceptionally high degree in Freemasonry and modern witchcraft’s three initiations are transparently derived from the three degrees of craft masonry. Crowley’s influence on wicca cannot be overestimated, but the Edwardian occultist was quintessentially a black magician who was to become the major inspiration behind the modern rival of Satanism.

Contemporary Satanism is divided into three distinct realities: solitary Satanists, prohibited underground cults, and neo-satanic groups. The Christian Church has always abhorred Satanism and its practice. The biblical warnings against all occult practices are clear (Leviticus 19: 26 – 31; 20: 6; Deuteronomy 13: 1 – 5; 18: 9 – 14; Isaiah 8: 19 – 22; Jeremiah 29: 8 – 9; et al). Additionally, the Bible speaks of Satan as being the “god of this age” (2 Corinthians 4: 4) who is the deceiver of the human race (Genesis 3: 4 – 13) and the arch-enemy of God (Matthew 4: 6; John 8: 44; 2 Corinthians 2: 11). Satan afflicts the righteous (Job), reigns in dominion over sinners (Acts 26: 18), attempts to reclaim Christians for himself (Ephesians 6: 12), and inspires deceptive and lying wonders (2 Thessalonians 2: 9). Traditional Christianity has steadily continued to defend the classical paradigms despite some modernists no longer subscribing to a literal supernatural reality that personifies evil. Yet nobody can deny the existence of Satanists who worship the Devil. Satanism continues to attract interest and involvement among people at each of its various levels. It is a complex issue, not easily dealt with concisely. There are many who merely dabble, mercenaries who use it for commercial interests, others who use it for hedonistic purposes, and finally those who immerse themselves with the utmost seriousness in ritualistic worship of Satan and commit violent crimes in their zealous quest to carry out their master’s bidding. It is virtually impossible to discover the number of authentic Satanists because of their axiom of silence and their clandestine nature.

What, then, is authentic Satanism? A contemporary British satanic magazine, Fenrir, published by the Thormynd Press in Shropshire, England, featured an article in its third issue titled “A Gift for the Prince.” The following are extracts: “Human sacrifice is powerful magick. The ritual death of an individual does two things: it releases energy … and it draws down dark forces. Sacrifice can be voluntary, of an individual, or involuntary … or results from events brought about by satanic ritual and/or planning (such as wars). Voluntary sacrifice usually only occurs every seventeen years as part of the ceremony of recalling. … An involuntary sacrifice is when an individual or individuals are chosen by a group, Temple, Order. Such sacrifices are usually sacrificed on the Spring Equinox. Great care is needed in choosing a sacrifice: the object being to dispose of a difficult individual or individuals without arousing undue suspicion. … The bodies are then buried or otherwise disposed of, care being taken if they are found, for suspicion not to fall on any of those involved. Those involved, of course, must be sworn to secrecy and warned that if they break their oath their own existence will be terminated. Breaking the oath of sacrifice draws down upon them the vengeance of all satanic groups. … Those who participate in the Ritual of Sacrifice must revel in the death(s): it being the duty of the Master and Mistress to find suitable participants.” Earlier in the text the unnamed author describes as the choicest victims for sacrifice: “interfering Nazarenes [Christians], those attempting to disrupt in some way established Satanist groups or Orders (eg journalists) and political/business individuals whose activities are detrimental to the Satanist spirit.” Another satanic publication, called the Black Flame, asserts that “The end times are here, the final days of the rule of the cross. The world will be swept by a wave of satanic individuals who will stand forth to claim their birthright as humans, proud of their nature. … An elite of the able will move forward towards the true destiny of our species, to master ourselves and the Universe.”

 

[Jerry_B]

Exo - firstly, associating Aleister Crowley with Satanism is a mistake the press made back when he was alive. I'm suprised that it's still reeled out nowadays. Secondly, Satanist mags may say many things, but whether they actually do this is another thing entirely. And if 'Satanists' revel in lying, perheaps all that they say is pure hokum, designed to scare.

 

[ruffready]

re:Exorcistate

Really interesting:never read it in such a clear form.you put it very well.Ive heard (read of that parsons guy ,in FT,amazing stuff )smart folks can really be bord with excistance and follow the devil,.evil!

Hold Them!! HOOLLD THEMMM!!!! "Michael Cain in: " ZULU "

 

[Anonymous]

"And if 'Satanists' revel in lying, perhaps all that they say is pure hokum, designed to scare." ~ JerryB

Yes, like the Nazis ~ or the Communists ~ perhaps ...

Or, then again, perhaps not.

 

[Jerry_B]

Your point being...?

 

[Anonymous]

Just because people are proficient in deceiving does not make them any less likely to carry out their threats of terror and death.

 

[Anonymous]

"And if 'Satanists' revel in lying, perhaps all that they say is pure hokum, designed to scare." ~ JerryB

Yes, like the Nazis ~ or the Communists ~ perhaps ...

Or, then again, perhaps not.

Or, for another example, wasn't it Paul who commented when accused of misrepresenting himself: "I am a runner in a race and I will not finish last.", or somesuch?

 

[Anonymous]

In this letter of his to the Corinthians, Paul is discussing the importance of taking care of our liberty, and is now explaining how to use our liberty in service to Jesus Christ. He states:

"Am I not free? Am I not an apostle? Have I not seen Jesus our Lord? ... My defence to those who examine me is this: Do we not have a right to eat and drink? Do we not have a right to take along a believing wife, even as the rest of the apostles, and the brothers of the Lord? ... For though I am free from all men, I have made myself a slave to all, that I might win the more. ... I have become all things to all men, that I may by all means save some. And I do all things for the sake of the gospel, that I may become a fellow partaker of it. Do you not know that those who run in a race all run, but only one receives the prize? Run is such a way that you may win. And everyone who competes in the games exercises self-control in all things. They then do it to receive a persihable wreath, but we an imperishable. Therefore I run in such a way, as not without aim; I box in such a way, as not beating the air; but I buffet my body and make it my slave, lest possibly, after I have preached to others, I myself should be disqualified."

 

[Jerry_B]

Just because people are proficient in deceiving does not make them any less likely to carry out their threats of terror and death.

Well, Satanists seem curiously lacking in the 'terror and death'-waging department. One could argue that other religions have been much more successful than they have ever been in this field. Satanists seem to be saying 'Boo!' alot, and that's about it.

 

[Anonymous]

Oh really ...

On 7th June 2000 the small Italian town of Chiavenna was rocked by the discovery of a gruesome murder in one of its quiet back lanes. The blood-soaked victim, who had been struck with rocks and smashed against a wall before being stabbed nineteen times, was later identified as Sister Maria Laura, the much-loved Mother Superior of the local convent. The brutality of the killing shocked townspeople, and attracted widespread media attention: and with no obvious motive for the murder, rumours soon started to fly. Satanic signs and slogans were found nearby and the killing was blamed on devil worshippers striking a blow against the Catholic Church. However, on 28th June 2000 three popular teenage girls were arrested. They were vampiroidic fans of the depraved “entertainer” Marilyn Manson, a member of the Church of Satan, whose lyrics are too blasphemous, hate-filled and obscene to quote on this site. At first the girls’ attitude was arrogant and cold. They refused to speak to the police. But when they eventually began to speak it became apparent that their appalling crime was a premeditated act. Milena, one of the girls, admitted that they had met outside the church one night and cut their hands, drinking the blood while they pledged an oath of eternal loyalty to each other. “We decided to go for a nun,” Veronica, another of the three girls, told her interrogators, “because she was the opposite of us. We believe in Satan.” The third girl is named Ambra. They beat the nun into unconsciousness with a tile and by beating her head against a stone wall. When that failed, they took out knives and stabbed her to death. But throughout her ordeal, Sister Maria Laura had prayed for her attackers, and promised them that God would forgive them even as she did herself. Armed with these confessions, the carabinieri searched the girls’ homes and found diaries testifying to their obsession with Satanism, and with the lyrics of the degenerate performer and singer Marilyn Manson who cashed-in on the tragedy when touring Italy in February 2001. Manson said: “If having your own opinion makes you evil, then I am evil. … All I say is don’t feel guilty for having emotions like lust, greed and hate ~ because you are going to have them.” On 9th August 2001 Ambra had the case against her dismissed on the grounds of diminished responsibility, and was sentenced to three years’ rehabilitation. The other two girls, Milena and Veronica, were found guilty of first degree murder and were each sentenced to eight years and six months. There is a move in Chiavenna to have Sister Maria Laura, who had taught in the town for more than thirty years, beatified.

A German woman accused of taking part in the ritual killing of a friend says she became a Satanist in Britain. Manuela Ruda and her husband Daniel were tried for the murder of former workmate Frank Haagen. They say they killed him on orders from the Devil. She told a court in Bochum, Germany, that she got a taste for vampirism and the occult while in London and Scotland. German police said that any evidence pointing to other possible crimes or a satanic ring in Britain will be sent to the relevant authorities. Mr Haagen, who was 33, was hacked to death with a machete before his head was crushed with a sledgehammer. He had 66 knife wounds to his body. They then carved a satanic pentagram into the victim’s stomach and dumped his body in a silk-lined oak coffin which Manuela usually slept in. They also slit Mr Haagen’s veins to drink his blood.

Manuela, 23, whose head is partly shaven to reveal tattoos of an upside down crucifix and a target, told the court about drinking blood from volunteers contacted via the internet. She said: "I was in England and Scotland, met people and vampires [sic] in London. We went out at night, to cemeteries, in ruins and in the woods. We drank blood together, from willing donors. I had implanted pegs put in - the teeth which were pulled out were replaced with fangs. I also slept on graves and even allowed myself to be buried in a grave to test the feeling. I signed over my soul to Satan two-and-a-half years ago." The couple denied responsibility for killing Mr Haagen in July 2001, on the grounds that Satan had influenced their actions, although they have both admitted to carrying out the gruesome act itself.

Daniel, 26, was ordered to be incarcerated for fifteen years and Manuela for thirteen years in secure mental prisons.

As sentence was passed on 31st January 2002, in the court at Bochum, near Dusseldorf, the pair laughed, casting mocking glances at their victim’s tearful mother. This is the second big Satanism case in Germany in recent years. One of the couple’s idols is Hendrik Moebus, who in 1993, aged 17, strangled a classmate because he was “bothering” Moebus’ group, the Children of Satan. Experts estimate that 7,000 people, the majority adolescents, engage in satanic rituals in Germany. However, many more do so in the UK and USA.

These cults attract people from every belief system and from all social classes. No group is immune. Most cults have arisen since the late 1960s. Since the 1980s, however, vampiroid cults have flourished and continue to do so. Many hundreds of people have been lured by their false promises of fulfilliment. The reality is emptiness, isolation, manipulation, discord, lies and hatred. Cult members undergo a profound change. Family and friends witness a change for the worse, but cult victims are programmed to feel good about the change. They are no longer able to critically evaluate to the degree that was possible prior to recruitment into their new lifestyle. Tell-tale signs may include sudden drastic personality transformations; appearing distant (as trance states are common); seeming detached; being withdrawn and secretive; appearing to be cold or emotionless to family and friends; physical deterioration and a loss of critical ability.

 

[Jerry_B]

Horrific. But - with the German case, we only have their word for what they claim to have done in the past, and the reasons they gave for carrying out the murders. As for the Italian case, no-one accused admitted to being a Satanist. I'd argue that these are isolated cases, and not some part of an organised Satanic cabal or organisation. Screwed-up youths who kill aren't entirely new. If Satan is truly abroad in the world, he seems to be taking a very economical approach. Also, I wonder how many murderers of recent years have claimed to carried out any acts at the behest of God? Either way, this doesn't stand out as something which is either a major societal or religious threat, IMHO.

 

[Anonymous]

Quote from St. Paul about deception.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Exorcistate
"And if 'Satanists' revel in lying, perhaps all that they say is pure hokum, designed to scare." ~ JerryB

Yes, like the Nazis ~ or the Communists ~ perhaps ...

Or, then again, perhaps not.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Or, for another example, wasn't it Paul who commented when accused of misrepresenting himself: "I am a runner in a race and I will not finish last.", or somesuch?

and

That's a new one on me. I was never much into athleticism at school.

The version I was recalling was from an old edition of the Gideon's Bible I used to have knocking around: can't find it or the same translation on any online version, but I did find the following on http://unbound.biola.edu/:

1 Corinthians 9:19
For though I was free from all, I brought myself under bondage to all, that I might gain the more.

1 Corinthians 9:20
To the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain Jews; to those who are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain those who are under the law;

1 Corinthians 9:21
to those who are without law, as without law (not being without law toward God, but under law toward Christ), that I might win those who are without law.

1 Corinthians 9:22
To the weak I became as weak, that I might gain the weak. I have become all things to all men, that I may by all means save some.

1 Corinthians 9:23
Now I do this for the gospel's sake, that I may be a joint partaker of it.

1 Corinthians 9:24
Don't you know that those who run in a race all run, but one receives the prize? Run like that, that you may win.

 

[Anonymous]

Yes, I am, of course, familiar with 1 Corinthians 9: 24 which is significantly removed from the spin Zygon gave it in the first instance.

But, to return to JerryB, the Italian girls did worship Satan (as revealed in diaries) and accepted the Church of Satan philosophy espoused by CoS member Marilyn Manson (whose pseudonym arises from a combination of the names of Marilyn Monroe and Charles Manson).

Regarding the German couple of whom JerryB says "we only have their word for what they did in the past" ~ are you saying that they are really closet Mormons or something, and that they are deceiving us by claiming to be Satanists with satanic connections in London?

“Evil men and impostors will go from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived.” (2 Timothy 3: 13)

Richard Ramirez, known as the night Stalker, was deceived by Anton LaVey’s assertion in the Satanic Bible that Satanists could reign in Hell. Ramirez believed that his human sacrifices to Satan would earn him a place of power in Hell next to Jack the Ripper and other serial killers. Further evidence of what leading Satanists really believe is revealed in admissions made by Lieutenant Colonel Michael Aquino of the United States Army. Aquino was a leader in LaVey’s Church of Satan and was LaVey’s “second-in-command” before he broke off to begin his own satanic order called the Temple of Set. Aquino ended up taking several of LaVey’s followers with him. The Temple of Set would eventually attract the likes of Anton LaVey’s daughter Zeena LaVey. So rabid a Satanist is Aquino that he had the number 666 tatooed on his scalp. The Temple of Set proclaims that Set, another name for Satan, is a real entity and is a name for “The oldest known form of the Prince of Darkness.” Aquino seems to have been under the conviction that society had become so jaded that many of those in the outer circle of Satanism were ready to worship Satan as a real entity. Aquino believed it was time for Satan to come out of the closet in all of his naked deformity. Aquino even took the more up front view of Satanism to the television airways where he virtually admitted that Satan is a real entity and that many are in the dark as to whom they are really worshipping, including millions of New Agers. On Oprah Winfrey, Aquino acknowledged that they are following the infernal being that orchestrated the initial rebellion against God, the Creator of the Universe. Aquino admitted to Winfrey and the television audience made up of millions that they are following Satan who initiated the original rebellion against God:

“We believe that this quality [to oppose God’s natural order] in the human soul that makes it different from all other life forms … was deliberately inculcated in humanity in its distant evolutionary past by an active agency that is acting in defiance of the universal norm [God’s moral law]. And that agency has been caricatured … as Lucifer, as Satan, and, in the greatest antiquity, by the ancient Egyptians as Set.”

Aquino went on to describe how they believe that they as Satanists are now becoming gods. This was at the heart of Satan’s initial rebellion and now Aquino was parroting the essence of Satanism, which is a desire to usurp the true and living God’s authority and follow Satan into God realisation. “We are not servants of some God,” declared Aquino, “we are our own gods!” Oprah Winfrey appeared to be shocked to find out that this was exactly what she believed as a New Ager, failing to realise that the New Age movement has it roots in Crowleyite Satanism even as Aquino’s Satanism. It has been established beyond a shadow of a doubt that Crowley was not only a confessed Satanist, but that he was the father of the hippy drug movement and counter-culture from which popular New Age teachings first became entrenched in Western civilisation. Almost gasping for air, Winfrey declared in response to Aquino’s assertion:

“Well, the way you explain this is very the way a lot of people who are into metaphysics now and the New Age movement and New Age thinking, they say the very same thing. Are you saying that it’s the same?”

Aquino, without skipping a beat, said “Yes” to Winfrey’s question, implying that New Agers and Satanist are on the same wave length in their rebellion against God and in their quest to achieve god-hood as they follow in Satan’s footsteps. He only clarified that most New Agers are not aware that they have joined a satanic rebellion against God and that Satanists know what is going on. Aquino stated:

“Yes, except that I would say we [Satanists] have a more precise grasp … We would say that we understand what’s actually happening a little better than many New Agers.”

Much to Aquino’s chagrin the Temple of Set would find out that even as debauched as the world has become most people are still smart enough not to knowingly serve Satan and end up spending eternity in Hell. After bringing Satan out of the closet the Temple of Set failed to enlist the large amount of recruits they apparently hoped for. In their failure to acquire more recruits they changed their method of evangelism and returned to a formula more in keeping with that of the Church of Satan. Today the Temple of Set, like the Church of Satan, espouses a more palatable seeker sensitive form of Satanism so as not to scare off potential recruits. The result is that Satan is once again cloaked in ambiguity, but the song remains the same as inner circle initiates are deceiving outer circle initiates.

Winfrey was surprised that Aquino, as a confessed Satanist, would try to deny the hard facts of the evil behind Satanism. When Aquino stated that they as Satanists have “nothing to do with evil,” she said:

“It’s just difficult for me to understand that the Devil is a good thing…that Satan isn’t evil, which is the opposite of what everybody in this world has been taught…”

Winfrey went on to exclaim:

“In every state of the nation authorities are investigating some form of what they call satanic activity … Children are telling the same stories about infants being murdered before their eyes in strange devil rituals. The list of bizarre stories goes on and on.”

Not surprisingly Aquino tried unsuccessfully at this point to put another typical spin on Satanism by claiming that they are not into such things. Even as leading Satanists like to hide the fact that they are truly worshipping Satan so it is that they seek to deny that Satanists sacrifice humans including children. The truth of the matter is that Aleister Crowley, whom Aquino acknowledges had an incredible influence on Aquino and the Temple of Set, not only taught his followers to engage in child sacrifice but admitted to sacrificing scores of children himself. After Aquino made the false claim that Satanists do not really sacrifice children, a law enforcement officer spoke up and stated:

“To say that there are no bodies and that these [Satanists] are not committing crimes is the farthest from the truth … in every case that I’ve investigated, now extending over two hundred, I have found this particular book [The Satanic Bible].”

At this point the investigator held up The Satanic Bible. In The Satanic Bible, LaVey proclaimed that he was seeking to “not advance things in print which make my position untenable” lest he find himself behind bars, and further stated that his followers were to commit human sacrifices by proxy:

“We perform human sacrifices, by proxy you might say—the destruction of human beings who would, let’s say, create an antagonistic situation toward us—in the form of curse and hexes, not in actual blood rituals because certainly the destruction of a human being physically is illegal.”

Note that the only reason LaVey concedes that he is not publicly advocating actual physical human sacrifice is because it is against the law, implying that if they could get away with it they would do it. In fact, LaVey takes credit for the deaths of Jayne Mansfield and her boy friend and lawyer Sam Brody, stating that it was the result of a ritual curse on Brody, and Mansfield happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. LaVey also believes that he was responsible for the Manson family murders. Manson was heavily influenced by the satanic cult known as the Process Church of the Final Judgement. The Process also acknowledged that Satan is a real entity. Their particular twisted spin in an effort to get unwitting recruits was not to pretend Satan was not a true entity but to claim that Satan was actually a Jesus loving Devil. The Process claimed that they, Jesus and Satan had reconciled and that all would work out well in the end for everyone including Satanists, because Jesus had supposedly forgiven the Devil. Ridiculous as this spin was it proved successful in garnering more than a few recruits. The bodies have piled up and the idea that Satanism is not behind the death of countless multitudes of innocent people is a lie only believed by the incredibly naîve. Manson, who was a confessed Satanist, was responsible of up to thirty-five murders if the admissions of some of his former followers are to believed. Charles Manson, whom Marilyn Manson cites as one of his pre-eminent inspirations and a brilliant philosopher, has stated, “Jesus Christ is for real and so is that other guy [ie Satan].” Charles Manson knows that Satan, whom he serves, is a real entity and has been more candid than has his follower Marilyn Manson. Son of Sam, who was part of a Process coven made up of twenty-two Satanists and connected to several other satanic covens, also murdered several people at the direction of the coven. Richard Ramirez, who followed The Satanic Bible and met with Anton LaVey before his satanic killing spree, killed twenty people. Ramirez even went so far as to torture his victims and made some “swear to Satan.”

The formal establishment of the Church of Satan, with such derivatives as the Temple of Set, has certainly played its part. Between Charles Manson, Son of Sam and Richard Ramirez alone we have dozens of murders in the name of Satan. We could easily add to this list case after case that would fill a book, perhaps several books, but the point has more than sufficiently been made for those who will honestly look at the evidence. The most influential and notorious satanic leaders have had a campaign to dupe their followers into becoming unwitting followers of not a symbol, nor an abstract force, but of Satan himself. Not only their own admissions, but the deceptive web they have spun to prey on outer circle initiates, give witness to this fact.

 

[Anonymous]

Zygon's vague recollection off the top of his head:
"wasn't it Paul who commented when accused of misrepresenting himself: "I am a runner in a race and I will not finish last.", or somesuch?"

and the actual line he was trying to recall:

"1 Corinthians 9:24
Don't you know that those who run in a race all run, but one receives the prize? Run like that, that you may win."

and then there's Exorcistate's response:

"Yes, I am, of course, familiar with 1 Corinthians 9: 24 which is significantly removed from the spin Zygon gave it in the first instance."

A significant remove? OK, so my flawed recollection was transposed into the first-person, and the line is actually expressed in the third-person, however the meaning of it remained the same. And that's what you call a spin of 'significant remove'??

Well OK, time for another 'significant remove' then.

 

[Jerry_B]

Exo - I think you're taking it all far too seriously. Any disturbed or deranged person (like the ones you've described) can claim to do certain things in the name of Satan. I'm sure an equal amount would claim to do the same in the name of God, etc.. Others who claim to be involved with Satanism obviously do it for publicity - Marilyn Manson being a good example. Should we take them on face value, because it fits in with our world view of things, or take a step back and try and view it from a wider point of view? Do you think that the CoS is involved in a wider Satanist plan? I'm also getting a bit tired of the Set=Satan thing. Satan, as an entity, post-dates Set. It's a bit of error to lump the two together, when it seems that other 'negative' gods are not.

 

[Anonymous]

I've just listened to a really interesting documentary on the BBC, World Service, `Omnibus' series, Witchcraft in Tanzania. It's well worth a listen. I covers a lot of ground concerning the whole satanism debate, that rang a few bells, for me.

Well worth a listen. It's available until, Tuesday, 27th August, 2002, as a Real Player file.

 

[monster_magnet]

For your info

------------------------------------------------------------------------
It is a logical fallacy to suggest that "links" between crime and an interest in satanism and the occult imply causality (Hicks 1990). It is, in effect, stating that because some youths who call themselves satanists have committed suicide or murder, therefore satanism causes suicide and murder. By this same faulty logic, one could also claim that, since some Christians commit suicide or murder, Christianity causes suicide or murder. Jenkins (1992) and Lanning (1989) both observe that murderers who attribute their crimes to commands from God far outnumber murderers who blame Satan -- yet it would go against reason to label their crimes "Christian ritual sacrifices."
_____As Hicks (1990, p. 282) observes, "where satanic motifs or imagery turn up in cases of troubled youth, even a superficial inquiry reveals other misbehavior, destructive preoccupations, even psychiatric disorders." Larson (1989), an antisatanist, states that alcohol abuse, violence, and neglect within the family contribute to youth attraction to satanism. He thus implicitly admits that problems within the family are the root "cause" of the teenage delinquency and crime he explicitly blames on satanism. It is here, in the realm of the family, that Larson's warnings to parents about heavy metal, obsessive D&D playing, and self-defined satanism have some validity: these "destructive preoccupations" (Hicks 1990, p. 282) are symptoms of an underlying problem, not the problem itself. Cast in this light, it becomes apparent that the proper response to troubled youth is not an all-out law enforcement attack on a supposed satanic megacult, but active participation and guidance by parents and other people concerned about confused adolescents. A belief in the antisatanist ideology of a nonexistent satanic conspiracy can divert parents and other concerned people away from taking the constructive, critical actions needed to deal with the problems of troubled youth. Nonetheless, the antisatanist movement promises, for better or worse, to be a rich source of data in the study of the sociology of religion for years to come.
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The rest of it is here:
http://www.uaa.alaska.edu/just/reports/html/9309satn.html

 

[luciferrofocale]

Exorcistate talking rubbish

93,

How many times do we have to read this ludicrous 'Crowley sacrificed babies' rubbish on the internet.
Sigh.
Try getting your facts right rather than ranting.
Crowley talks in magick in theory and practice about sacrificing thousands of babies a year. Now you can take that as a literal truth, if so where exactly did all the bodies go?
Or you can realise that he's talking about sex magick.
It's not that complicated.
I've yet to meet anyone who takes the mass satanic murder stories as real apart from born again christians.
Of course Christianity has a spotless record on child abuse and murder and can afford to point the finger...

93 93 93

Peter Grey