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Who Killed the Black Dahlia?

A

Anonymous

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http://www.bethshort.com/dahhome.htm

Anyone?

Was it this guy?

Was she murdered by the same person as Georgette Bauerdorf?

Or was there a cover-up? Was she killed by two cops?

"Just a few days after the finding, two homicide officers sat in a restaurant, discussing the case. After returning to headquarters, they got a call from a man, stating he just spotted the killers. The gentleman was a waiter in the restaurant, and his named suspects were the two officers. "

And some other associated weirdness:

- A woman walked five miles to tell detectives that if Short were buried with an egg in her hand, the killer would be found within a week.
- An astrologer asked the hour and date of Short's birth, then promised to provide the murderer's name within a few days.
- One wanted Short's right eyeball, saying that he would "photograph" the final image reflected and would return with a photograph of the killer.
- In at least three cases, landlords reported suspicious actions of tenants they had been vying to evict.
- A Barstow, California woman told a bartender, "I know who killed Beth Short, and if the reward is big enough I'll talk." Two officers discovered the woman knew no more than what was in the newspapers. She was trying to get back at two boyfriends who had walked out on her, and tried to implicate them in the crime.

Did Beth Short have a tattoo?
According to John Gilmore, Beth Short did not have a tattoo. The author says she did, however, have a rose-colored birthmark on her left thigh.
The LAPD will not comment on this issue.

What weapon was used to sever Beth's body?
It is believed the killer used a butcher knife to hack Beth Short's body in two. The LAPD will not comment on this issue.

What was in Beth Short's stomach at the time of her death?
According to John Gilmore, during the autopsy, Beth's stomach was found to have contained fecal matter.
The LAPD will not comment on this issue.
 
I think it's the ritual overtones that are the most disturbing: it's almost Ripper-esque, especially as there was no attempt to hide the body - it was left in plain(ish) view.

The LAPD attitude to this day does seem very strange: I was particularly grabbed by this quote: (from here)

The “filing cabinet” on the Dahlia case is actually an LAPD joke. Very little of the original “evidence” exists as most of it took a walk with Harry Hansen when he retired from the department. Not to say that Harry hadn’t been squirreling most of it away for quite some time before he rode off into the sunset.
Click to expand...

Lots of "friends in high places" overtones, again just like the Ripper. The evidence we know about, coupled with the official beligerence, do make it an enduring puzzle - can any US members comment on whether or not it holds a place in the American collective conciousness in the same manner as Jack the Ripper?

What is odd to me though is that the focus is far more on the victim than the perpetrator - or is that the spin that's been fed to everyone?

Stu
 
It certainly doesn't hold us in the same thrall as the Ripper, Stu. At least not on the East Coast. Moreover, I think the focus is on the victim--indeed, any interest in the case at all--lies in the hideous photographs. That's what Anger latched onto in Hollywood Babylon. It didn't hurt that the Dahlia was pretty and young.

I made the mistake of looking at them last night, and had to read nice things before retireing. :cross eye
 
I read detailed accounts of this several years ago now, and my memory of it is now rather dim, but I did form the opinion that a woman killed Elizabeth Short. Unfortunately, I can't remember why....sorry guys.
 
This is such an unusual case, though I'd like to focus on the circumstances rather than on the context - it certainly seems to be one of those cases that captures the imagination, including that of the press.

But who actually did it and why did he/she/they do it in the way they did? The mutilation carried out on the body and the seemingly haphazard method of disposal is interesting. Why cut someone in half like that? To make the body easier to move or dispose of? An aborted attempt to cut it into smaller pieces for disposal? But if that is true, then why dispose of it somewhere in plain view for all to see? Was the disposal some kind of panic - an attempt to get rid of it ASAP? Was it really the work of a loner, or maybe two people, as hauling a body around and hacking it up like that would be a big task for a single person (though not impossible). What is the significance of the slash across the mouth? Some kind of ritual context perhaps? And why was this the only crime of this type at the time, i.e. why didn't the killer strike again?
 
Wot I heard

I read a detailed coverage of the case here:

http://www.crimelibrary.com/notorious_murders/famous/dahlia/

that said the one guy who was briefly arrested for the crime but not charged was the killer (he died in a house fire soon after).

Read about it on the site, but be warned, the detail describing the actual murder is almost too gruesome (for me, at least).

The body was cut in two in a tub to facilitate removing the body.

The real sad bit is that in Elizabeth's paramour hadn't have been killed in the war, she probablly wouldn't have been in the wrong place at the wrong time.

[Emp edit: Updating link]
 
Collins's Take

Just now finished Angel in Black by Max Allan Collins, a well-researched crime novel focused on the Black Dahlia killing, and he thinks it was the Cleveland Torso Killer being manipulated by a sociopath who'd previously been considered a possible accomplice, Arnold Wilson. He's the very thin, very tall, acne-scarred creep who burned up in a flophouse fire long after the killing.

In any case, I agree with Collins on one thing: Orson Welles isn't a serious suspect.

As for his idea about Short's murder, he may well be right, but so far there is no conclusive evidence to cement it.

The book is very entertaining and worth reading, and contains an excellent afterword covering his research and thinking. Our now from Signet paperbacks, ISBN: 0-451-205017-0.
 
A few notes....

The Orson Welles as a suspect bit as referred to by FraterLibre comes from Childhood Shadows by Mary Pacios, a woman who knew Beth Short and wrote this book claiming that there were only 2 serious suspects ( and Orson Welles was one of them)..
I'm guessing here that he really is'nt a serious suspect...although he did take a powder from the U.S. for a number of years after the murder.

Actually there were other murders afterwards..the most famous being the "red lipstick" murder of avaitrix Jeanne French. The police labeled the other killings as copycat murders.
 
Practice and Truth Obscured

What strikes an observer most about Elizabeth Short's murder is how practiced the murderer is. This was not a first-timer. This was not a one-off or crime of passion. This was someone used to handling dead bodies and someone who enjoyed inflicting pain. That means there were other murders before Short's, and very likely others afterwards, unless the culprit died or was somehow incapacitated.

Collins mentions Pacios's book in his afterword.

Question: Does anyone know if the assertion that she had under-developed genitalia was disproven? I ask this because I would have sworn it was skotched as a myth, and yet Collins takes it seriously.

Of course, he also portrays her as a little cock-tease seductress, and I'd heard in fact that she had body lice and so on and would not have attracted any but the lowest forms of male hedonist or predator.

Does anyone know what's true?
 
Collins on State of Body

If we accept she had infantile genitalia and was prone to oral sex as a result, then we can buy what Collins proposes, which is that she habitually avoided anal sex, too, on the grounds that it would reveal her condition, and so offered fellatio freely.

He also states that the fecal matter in her throat may well be her own, if the killer fucked her anally, then forced her to deep-throat him. Not illogical, really.

He further states that the alleged "rose tattoo" from her thigh was found crammed into her anus. Not sure of his source for this.
 
john gilmore

Gilmore who wrote "Severed", ( generally regarded as the best non-fiction book on the subject )...stated that Short did not have a tattoo..that it was a birthmark..He also is the source of the infantile gentalia info...which he says was a well held secret of the L.A. detectives assigned to the case.
He also has pointed out that Short was probably well versed in oral gratification of the men who bought her dinners and clothing..Perhaps if pressed for intercourse...she would provide anal sex...But I would agree...it was probably only as a last resort.
 
An article from yesterday's (19/4/03) Guardian about the Black Dahlia case here.

Ex LAPD homicide detective Steve Hodel claims that the killer was his father. Certainly seems a nasty piece of work - but then so are lots of people. Anyone read the book?
 
Hodel's Book

I've looked for it at the public library and it hasn't yet cropped up. I'll either put in a request or find it at a book store, break down, and spend the damned money yet again. lol

At least I got the Cornwell book as a gift and found the prior Daddy Did It book in an inexpensive paperback edition.

I admit to being curious to see what Hodel's saying, in detail, although I also admit to a bias against his general notion on the simple grounds that a horrific father doesn't necessarily equate to a specific murder's solution.
 
Interesting article on the Hodel book in todays Times too. Particularly chilling being a police recording of a bug in Hodels house, Hodel is heard saying that the police could only prove he killed the Black Dahlia if they asked his secretary, then a woman is heard to scream twice.

Quite whether the police investigated the disappearance/murder of Hodel's secretary I don't know. Would be interested to read the book.
 
curious

I'm curious to know if anyone has heard whether Dr. Hodel's son heard or saw anything as he grew up. He became an LAPD homocide detective, but only dug into the Black Dahlia murder after retiring; one wonders if repressed memories surfaced, if mental itches finally demanded scratching, or if it all came as a shock to him as he made the link more and more solid between Liz Short and his father.

Can't wait to see this book.
 
Well apparently it was only after his father died, and he was given an album of his fathers that contained pictures of Liz Short that he started making the connection.
 
The Red Album

Yes, so apparently he had no clear recollections himself of his father torturing or murdering anyone? As I say, this book intrigues me. Sounds very interesting, whether or not I end up buying his solution.
 
Without looking into his case, on first hearing it does sound a little like the usual "pick your suspect then choose the facts to fit" {(c) P. Cornwell :D}. He seems to have had issues with his absentee, womanising father, who then deserted the family completely. Whether this coloured his investigation is open to discussion.
 
Bias Can Help

Still, in some cases a bias can help uncover facts which then prove out and demonstrate guilt. regardless of his motivation, if his investigation of his father's life reveals factual evidence, we must deal with the evidence, not his motives.

It seems evident that Liz Short was not killed by a first-timer, so we'd want to find someone with a psychopathic history of extreme violence toward women. Dr. Hodel seems to fit this to a tee. If his son, feeling abandoned and neglected all his life, eventually feels more motivated than others to make a genuinely thorough investigation, and in so doing uncovers solid evidence of a link to Short's death, then justice will have been served at last.

Hodel, as I recall, was linked all through the case, including having been the abortionist of choice among the high-class Hollywood-clone call-girls maintained in that house on the hill, and so on.

Incidentally, Max Allan Collins's book Angel in Black, which somewhat romanticizes Short, does focus on Hodel, but portrays him as a muddled old coot with Alzheimer's. Collins pegs Arnold Wilson as the killer, and postulates it was a hired-out mob hit, to keep Short quiet about the prostitution ring run out of the Mocambo and also to warn other potential squealers to shut up.

His novel is a fun read and well-researched; recommended.
 
Now Really...

...is that entirely helpful to mention? Useless Cornwell bashing is dull. Let it go, man. There's a larger world out there just waiting to be discovered. Kicking dullards isn't a mark of distinction.

Oh, sorry.
 
Poor Patricia

Alas, poor Patricia will have such a row when she publishes her next book, "This is Who Killed JFK Nyah Nyah," and reveals her remarkable research into the patterns one can just about make out by squinting sideways at Castro's beard clippings...
 
Anyway, back to the topic of the thread...

Why would the mob go to such lengths to mutilate the body? Mob hits aren't usually dramatic. Any mutilation that's done is for the sake of hiding the body. No body...less evidence, eh? So, I have a hard time with the mob hit theory.
 
Mutilation

The mob hired a psycho, is the basic answer. As long as he carved the face into a squealer's grin, he was allowed to do anything else he wanted.
 
*bump*

I'm aware that James Ellroy's fictional take on the Black Dahlia case was inspired by how his own mother was murdered when he was a child but was there ever any significant link between the two cases?

Or would that have been just promotional blurb for the book?
 
Similar MOs

Ellroy's mother's case wasn't linked per se to the Black Dahlia murder but the murders did have some similarities and for awhile in his investigation it seemed to him feasible that the same hand was guilty of both.

His mother's murder remains unsolved as, officially, does Liz Short's, although Ellroy seems now to lean toward the view that it was the doctor who lived near the dump zone, the one who did abortions for the local brothels.

His novel remains a must-read for anyone interested in the case. You might also get ahold of the documentary film JAMES ELLROY'S FEAST OF DEATH. This title refers to a dinner party he threw during the making of the documentary for some of his homocide detective pals. The film is about his investigation into his mother's death and touches on Liz Short's murder, too.

He also wrote a book, My Dark Places, written in an almost bullet-statement style due to having to force each phrase out of himself. It's wrenching and tells of his dark childhood and the mother's murder and so on. Recommended.
 
I've been looking into this and there's a very weird theory about whodunit here . It involves a guy called Ed Burns wanting to turn Beth into a horse. It strikes me that its likely to be the author of the site twisting things to fit in with his own theory, but if you're into the case it may be worth a read. Beware - the site contains a very gruesome morgue facial photo. I think I'm going to find somewhere quiet to cry now :sob:
 
Wow

Crank logic at its most paranoid and yet it all hangs together IF one accepts his interpretations.

Spooky, weird stuff.

If only the guy could write clearly and not continually show off for himself.

Not convincing but well worth checking out.
 
Black Dahlia - Killed By The Mad Doctor

Don't recall if this was ever discussed on the Black Dahilia thread, but here:

http://www.blackdahliaavenger.com/

is the site for a guy who thinks his dad was the Black Dahlia killer. Just saw a special on it on tv here, and I think it certainly makes a good circumstantial argument. Some things to consider (and I don't know if it's all on the site):

1) The father was a friend of Man Ray, and the son thinks the body was posed to mimic a Man Ray photograph (the Horns of the Minotaur or something like that).

2) He had a secret compartment in his house that the family knew was there but didn't know what he did there (they showed the compartment on the special).

3) He was connected with the crime by the LAPD, but all charges were mysteriously dropped.
 
I've read this book, and though I'm always doubtful about solutions to unsolved crimes, the Man Ray connection is about as persuasive as this sort of post-facto "evidence" ever is; the evidence in the lipstick murder is striking (though I have to be skeptical about anybody's ability to recognize handwriting under the circumstances); and unlike some proposed killers, he really did have some connection with poor Beth Short, as evidenced by the photograph. As suspects go, this is a good one. Also, the author went to some trouble to track down possible related crimes, which is not always done. If we can be sure of one thing about this murder, it is that it was not the only one ever perpetrated by this killer. So I would recommend the book to anyone interested in the murder.

Also, though I consider the suspect put forth in it to be absurd, the "Shadows of Childhood" book by the woman who Knew Short When is an important read. In far too many minds, "The Black Dahlia" is just a spectacular body formerly owned by a cheap little tart, who might be said to have died so we could invent theories of her death for our amusement. After reading how Beth Short rescued the author from the local child molestor, no one will be able to think of her that way again. The author of *Prisoner 1167* performs a similar service for Ripper victims, though less intimately - reading both books, it struck me as likely that both authors dredged up a suspect just because they knew a new book on the subject wouldn't get published without one. What interested these people was the victims, and quite right, too.
 
Other oddities:

Jack Webb of tv's Dragnet, who worked with (and was briefly, iirc) a LA police officer, was told that the real killer was known, a doctor who lived on the same street as the guy's father.

All the physical, original evidence on the Black Dahlia case is missing from the LAPD files. All that exists are copies of items.

The doctor was considered such a key suspect his home was wiretapped. In one of the many pages of transcripts of this wiretap, he says something like: "Suppose I did kill the Black Dahlia? They could never trace it to me, now that my sectetary is dead". His secretary died of an overdose.

His daughter said he molested her, as well as letting rich & powerful friends molest her, so she pressed charges. He was released when the whole family said teh charges were unfounded.

After his questioning and the closing of the Black Dahlia case, he left the country for 40 years.
 
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