Who Killed the Black Dahlia?

[sonofajoiner]

Yet another theory on the case is about to be published;
'The Black Dahlia Files: The Mob, the Mogul and the Murder - Donald H. Wolfe'.
The author seems to be a bit of a conspiracy theorist as his previous book deals with the 'cover-up' following Marilyn Monroe's death/assasination (not that I've read it mind). But looking at the title of this new work the mind boggles at what conclusions he's come to in the Black Dahlia case.

 

[fire wilson]

I've been looking into this and there's a very weird theory about whodunit here . It involves a guy called Ed Burns wanting to turn Beth into a horse. It strikes me that its likely to be the author of the site twisting things to fit in with his own theory, but if you're into the case it may be worth a read. Beware - the site contains a very gruesome morgue facial photo. I think I'm going to find somewhere quiet to cry now :sob:

that whole story is ridiculous. the horse thing....

 

[fire wilson]

Black Dahlia - Killed By The Mad Doctor

Don't recall if this was ever discussed on the Black Dahilia thread, but here:

http://www.blackdahliaavenger.com/

is the site for a guy who thinks his dad was the Black Dahlia killer. Just saw a special on it on tv here, and I think it certainly makes a good circumstantial argument. Some things to consider (and I don't know if it's all on the site):

1) The father was a friend of Man Ray, and the son thinks the body was posed to mimic a Man Ray photograph (the Horns of the Minotaur or something like that).

2) He had a secret compartment in his house that the family knew was there but didn't know what he did there (they showed the compartment on the special).

3) He was connected with the crime by the LAPD, but all charges were mysteriously dropped.

St

 

[fire wilson]

Black Dahlia - Killed By The Mad Doctor

Don't recall if this was ever discussed on the Black Dahilia thread, but here:

http://www.blackdahliaavenger.com/

is the site for a guy who thinks his dad was the Black Dahlia killer. Just saw a special on it on tv here, and I think it certainly makes a good circumstantial argument. Some things to consider (and I don't know if it's all on the site):

1) The father was a friend of Man Ray, and the son thinks the body was posed to mimic a Man Ray photograph (the Horns of the Minotaur or something like that).

2) He had a secret compartment in his house that the family knew was there but didn't know what he did there (they showed the compartment on the special).

3) He was connected with the crime by the LAPD, but all charges were mysteriously dropped.

St

Hodel is or was a great detective, but his dad didn't kill Beth Short, i don't think.
For one thing, he was too busy, had no time to do it. Plus that, everyone knew about the , " secret room". so it wasn''t really a secret. Hodel's father, George, wasn't in physical condition to have done the deed anyhow. Nor did it take place in Georges downtown office. If Hodel had killed the Dahlia, where is any evidence? the photo in Georges' picture book, may look similar to Beth, but the lady is Asian, it isn't Beth. The bones are not structured the same. The nose, cheekbones are different. The eyes are different. As for the little beauty mark by the eyebrow, that is not enough to make it the same person. But that's my take, on the issue.Steve may be right, i don't think so, though.

 

[fire wilson]

Other oddities:

Jack Webb of tv's Dragnet, who worked with (and was briefly, iirc) a LA police officer, was told that the real killer was known, a doctor who lived on the same street as the guy's father.

All the physical, original evidence on the Black Dahlia case is missing from the LAPD files. All that exists are copies of items.

The doctor was considered such a key suspect his home was wiretapped. In one of the many pages of transcripts of this wiretap, he says something like: "Suppose I did kill the Black Dahlia? They could never trace it to me, now that my sectetary is dead". His secretary died of an overdose.

His daughter said he molested her, as well as letting rich & powerful friends molest her, so she pressed charges. He was released when the whole family said teh charges were unfounded.

After his questioning and the closing of the Black Dahlia case, he left the country for 40 years.

actually, no. just because you have the facts, doesn't mean you can prove them.

 

[fire wilson]

the whole thing is a mess. different police and investigators, took some of it home, perhaps some of it got lost. it is a matter of the Dahlia's notoriety, plus he attractiveness, and the extreme circumstances of the case, that caused the evidence to go missing, not to forget that the whole place moved to other locations, and evidence gets lost, it seems, even under the most prosaic circumstances. It may have something to do with the rotation of the earth. seems the evidence just falls out of the boxes into thin air. just routine typical type of thing, you know? Can't have it any other way.

 

[AlabasterdisasterIRL]

The Mob, the Mogul & the Murder was great for old LA sleaze trivia but the theory was just crap. At that time pre-DNA a love child wasn't that difficult to deal with so I doubt anyone killed an aspiring actress over a pregnancy. Also around that time even LAPD officers were known to have inconvenient women committed to asylums (code 12) to avoid a fuss (example Christine Collins). There were many other ways to get rid of that problem. The lid was kept on Clarke Gables love child, conceived in 1935 for a looooong time. An unwanted pregnancy had a lot of solutions.
Short was indigent, she relied on her looks to survive in LA which is a nice way of saying she was essentially a prostitute. Had the police done a better job of securing the scene photos wouldn't have been made public & I doubt anyone would have cared what happened. We live in comparatively more civilised times & yet someone like the Grimm Sleeper can carry on for so long because police & society in general don't care what happens to women like this. LISK is another present day example of no one caring until it reached a point where public morbid curiosity kicked in.
The press were all over this from the beginning & even informed her family before the police could. The case was a mess because the police at the time were deluged on a good day, Short only got the interest she did from them because it was a tabloid sensation due to the brutality. Along with that interest comes other things like false confessions & evidence going missing. Items belonging to her one time boyfriend ended up on ebay, people take things for a story to tell when they retire, that's to say nothing of the fact that police departments & government in general don't have a great reputation for organisation or administrative competence.
I don't think the Hodel theory or the Georgette Bauerdorf theory are that outlandish. I think if there had to be some reason that the killer was never outed publicly. If she were murdered by some random civilian it would have come out, people don't stop doing things like this. The fact that the police couldn't even get together an indictment (a very low bar) suggested things were going on behind the scenes to make sure it all blew over.
Many actresses at that time had abortions, studios often had doctors like Hodel who dealt with things which would cause a scandal. When she died there was evidence that Marilyn Monroe had 'dozens' of abortions, the studio arranged for a doctor to provide Judy Garland amphetamines so she would work through the night on Oz. It's possible Short & Hodel crossed paths & it was kept quiet as scrutiny of Hodel might shine a light on some things studios would prefer were not public.
It's very strange when at the time the evidential bar was so low that you could 'indict a ham sandwich' yet somehow they didn't even come up with a patsy. It looks like someone wanted it all to just go away & really go away it did.

 

[Swifty]

The Mob, the Mogul & the Murder was great for old LA sleaze trivia but the theory was just crap. At that time pre-DNA a love child wasn't that difficult to deal with so I doubt anyone killed an aspiring actress over a pregnancy. Also around that time even LAPD officers were known to have inconvenient women committed to asylums (code 12) to avoid a fuss (example Christine Collins). There were many other ways to get rid of that problem. The lid was kept on Clarke Gables love child, conceived in 1935 for a looooong time. An unwanted pregnancy had a lot of solutions.
Short was indigent, she relied on her looks to survive in LA which is a nice way of saying she was essentially a prostitute. Had the police done a better job of securing the scene photos wouldn't have been made public & I doubt anyone would have cared what happened. We live in comparatively more civilised times & yet someone like the Grimm Sleeper can carry on for so long because police & society in general don't care what happens to women like this. LISK is another present day example of no one caring until it reached a point where public morbid curiosity kicked in.
The press were all over this from the beginning & even informed her family before the police could. The case was a mess because the police at the time were deluged on a good day, Short only got the interest she did from them because it was a tabloid sensation due to the brutality. Along with that interest comes other things like false confessions & evidence going missing. Items belonging to her one time boyfriend ended up on ebay, people take things for a story to tell when they retire, that's to say nothing of the fact that police departments & government in general don't have a great reputation for organisation or administrative competence.
I don't think the Hodel theory or the Georgette Bauerdorf theory are that outlandish. I think if there had to be some reason that the killer was never outed publicly. If she were murdered by some random civilian it would have come out, people don't stop doing things like this. The fact that the police couldn't even get together an indictment (a very low bar) suggested things were going on behind the scenes to make sure it all blew over.
Many actresses at that time had abortions, studios often had doctors like Hodel who dealt with things which would cause a scandal. When she died there was evidence that Marilyn Monroe had 'dozens' of abortions, the studio arranged for a doctor to provide Judy Garland amphetamines so she would work through the night on Oz. It's possible Short & Hodel crossed paths & it was kept quiet as scrutiny of Hodel might shine a light on some things studios would prefer were not public.
It's very strange when at the time the evidential bar was so low that you could 'indict a ham sandwich' yet somehow they didn't even come up with a patsy. It looks like someone wanted it all to just go away & really go away it did.

If all that is true, Randy Quaid is suddenly starting to sound a bit less crazy now. Star Whackers .. :creepy:

 

[hunck]

Black Dahlia Solved

Possibly. Someone has a new book out.

It was Leslie Dillon, who was apparently a suspect at the time, as instructed by Mark Hansen, a Hollywood businessman.

Hansen, originally from Denmark, had become a successful businessman by 1947, owning movie theatres and the part owner of a nightclub. He was said to be possessive with women and had links to the LA underworld. He had a number of girls stay at a property in Carlos Avenue - of which Elizabeth was one, and the one he was said to be obsessed with.
Frustrated that she would stay with him but wouldn't 'go all the way', Piu claims Hansen got tired of her and ordered Dillon to "get rid of her." Dillon, a criminal and bootlegger was chosen for this task, but his psychopathic tendencies meant the murder involved a horrifically gruesome mutilation.

And the evidence, Piu believes, hangs on the Aster motel, where Elizabeth, Hansen and Dillon were seen by witnesses. The day after her death a room in the hotel - cabin three - was found covered in blood and faeces, and a package of clothes - similar to what she was wearing - were found.

Dillon had stayed in the hotel on several occasions and witnesses saw him and Hansen there in the week Elizabeth disappeared. They also reported seeing a black haired girl there and suspiciously a receipt for an extraordinarily large laundry bill was found at the motel after the killing.

 

[MrRING]

That is an interesting theory, particularly the idea that there is a room that is likely where the murder could have taken place. The motive however, that she wouldn't go "all the way" seems to fly in the face of opinions I've read about that suggested she was engaged in mild sex work - or was that just modern conjecture? So count me as at least skeptical about the whys as presented in this new theory.

 

[hunck]

I think she had some sort of genital abnormality that may have made 'normal' sex difficult or maybe impossible.

 

[Cynical Apathist]

Do you believe in reincarnation?

Exactly 9 months (a normal human pregnancy) after the murder Hillary Rodham Clinton was born.

Somehow, it all fits together...

 

[Heckler]

I think she had some sort of genital abnormality that may have made 'normal' sex difficult or maybe impossible.

Her genitals were severely underdeveloped so normal sex or indeed normal child birth would've been impossible.

 

[henry]

wasnt that unsupported apochrypha

 

[Heckler]

I didn't know that but this from the Wiki page on her murder:

Another widely-circulated rumor (sometimes used to counter claims that Short was a prostitute)[91] holds that Short was unable to have sexual intercourse because of a congenital defect that resulted in "infantile genitalia."[k] Los Angeles County district attorney's files state that the investigators had questioned three men with whom Short had engaged in sex,[93] including a Chicago police officer who was a suspect in the case; FBI files on the case also contain a statement from one of Short's alleged lovers.[94] Short's autopsy itself, which was reprinted in full[38] in Michael Newton's 2009 book The Encyclopedia of Unsolved Crimes (ISBN 978-1-438-11914-4), notes that her uterus was "small"; however, no other information in the autopsy is provided that would suggest her reproductive organs were anything other than anatomically normal.[43][45] The autopsy also states that Short was not and had never been pregnant, contrary to what had been claimed prior to and following her death.[93]

Well fancy that, I wonder where that piece of information came from?

 

[Heckler]

Ah possibly it's a relatively recent thing:

In the early 1980s, actor and crime writer John Gilmore accused Jack Anderson Wilson, an alcoholic drifter also known as Arnold Smith, of the Short murder. In an interview, Wilson apparently revealed details about the murder that only the killer would know, such as a vaginal defect, which would have prevented Short from having sexual intercourse.

From here: http://www.crimeandinvestigation.co.uk/crime-files/elizabeth-short-the-black-dahlia/aftermath

 

[Kingsize Wombat]

And in the never ending series of "New Book claims to solve [insert favorite mystery here]":

Black Dahlia killer unmasked: Notorious case of aspiring starlet who was cut in half and had 'Joker smile' carved into her face is finally solved, despite 'cover-up by LAPD'

The full story here: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5012767/Black-Dahlia-killer-revealed-new-book.html

 

[ramonmercado]

Prince Philip did it.

 

[Kingsize Wombat]

Prince Philip did it.

Hmm... Let's see, she was murdered on January 15, 1947 in the US. Prince Philip arrived in Portsmouth aboard the destroyer "Whelp" on January 17, 1947.

I'm not sure how he would have done it - unless he was using a Nazi Bell.

 

[ramonmercado]

Hmm... Let's see, she was murdered on January 15, 1947 in the US. Prince Philip arrived in Portsmouth aboard the destroyer "Whelp" on January 17, 1947.

I'm not sure how he would have done it - unless he was using a Nazi Bell.

Maybe the Queen Mum did it.

 

[Min Bannister]

And in the never ending series of "New Book claims to solve [insert favorite mystery here]":



The full story here: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5012767/Black-Dahlia-killer-revealed-new-book.html

There certainly is a lot of detail there.
Daily Mail- keeping it classy as always.

 

[Kingsize Wombat]

Well, and now the Podcast:

In this eight-part documentary series, sisters Rasha Pecoraro and Yvette Gentile, the great grand daughters of George Hodel, take a deep dive into their family history to try to figure out what really happened, and where do they all go from here? Root of Evil is the companion podcast to TNTs limited series I Am the Night. Inspired by the true story of the Hodel family, the series stars Chris Pine and comes from acclaimed Wonder Woman director Patty Jenkins.

I listened to a few bits of it, and the whole Hodel clan today think that George "did it". It sure sounds like he was a sordid character. A lot of the podcast is also devoted to the effect he had on the family even today. I couldn't listen to all of that - but yes, in the eyes of his family, he was the killer.

https://podnews.net/podcast/1450277129

 

[Kingsize Wombat]

PS: While scanning over the Wiki page, I also found this update from July 2018:

In July 2018, Sandi Nichols of Indianapolis, Indiana, while going through her recently deceased mother's personal effects, discovered a "Dying Declaration Letter" written by her grandfather, W. Glenn Martin, some 70 years before (October 26, 1949). The handwritten envelope read, "In case of Margaret Ellen's or Glenna Jean's Death" and was initialed "WGM"; the letter was written out of fear that one or both of his teenage daughters might be killed. The three-page letter identified W. Glenn Martin as a paid LAPD police informant working for a "Sgt. McCawley" (Sgt. McCauley, LAPD Internal Affairs Division). He described his activities as working undercover for LAPD detectives to help them identify and arrest corrupt police officers; in his words, "... it was to try and see if other officers could be inveigled into crime." The Martin letter, reproduced in full in the chapter "Afterword" in Black Dahlia Avenger III,[8] went on to name "GH" on 17 separate occasions identifying him as a personal acquaintance of Martin's as well as of Sgt. McCauley's, and named him as the killer of both Elizabeth "Black Dahlia" Short and of a second lone woman, Louise Springer, the "Green Twig Murder" victim. Martin's letter claimed that both he and "GH" personally knew the Springer woman and that he believed "GH" also killed her. LAPD at that time was actively investigating the Louise Springer and Black Dahlia murders and had publicly identified them as "probably connected". Springer was garroted on June 13, 1949, just two blocks from where the body of Elizabeth Short was found in 1947.
Included in the letter was the fact that LAPD, after being informed that "GH" knew victim Springer, that "GH" was taken in and "grilled about the Springer murder". The Martin letter made it clear that "GH" was known and protected by law enforcement officers, and that they "let him go". Martin's instructions were that his letter was to be opened only in case of harm coming to either of his daughters. No harm came to either of them so the letter remained unreported and in the family's possession for 70 years until discovered and read by Martin's granddaughter.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Hodel

Well, that certainly makes it sound like George was the guy.

 

[Ronnie Jersey]

I've read all the books on the Black Dahlia murder, really interesting case.
All the authors use the facts supporting their version of the murder, while pretty much ignoring the rest of them, so I've never known what to think. George Hodel certainly is up there with the rest of the suspects, but one part of this case has always bothered me.
The Aster Motel in Los Angeles had one room that was horribly bloody the very night Elizabeth Short was murdered, and the owner simply cleaned the mess up and threw everything out in the trash.
Henry Hoffman, the owner, had been arrested for beating his wife, Clora, only 4 days prior, and didn't want to have police involved in the mess. He also found a bag of bloody women's clothes in another room.
And when police did finally look into this matter months later, when asked who had rented rooms in the motel on the night Short was murdered, Clora had 'thrown out' the motel records already, so that there was no firm evidence.
But a dark-haired woman fitting Short's description was seen at the time at the Aster Motel.
I just think Ms. Short was surrounded by many creeps, led one of them on, and he might have been drunk or stoned.