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Will Putin Offer Siberia To China To Guarantee Their Continued Support?

blessmycottonsocks

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With the world's two most notorious totalitarian dictators meeting next week, there is speculation that Putin, desperate for support from China - one of his few remaining allies, may offer the enormous Siberian resources to Xi Jinping.

Jinping's China is desperate for more Lebensraum for their unsustainable population and has long had aspirations to take Siberia.
Siberia is a vast territory, more than 50 times larger than the UK and with abundant natural resources.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/worl...s-as-putin-becomes-china-s-vassal/ar-AA18Mg40

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2023/03/18/putins-choice-vassal-xis-china/

 
I very much doubt Putin would willingly give even a square inch of Russian territory away.

But he might offer to take a few million Chinese Inner Mongolians and give them Russian citizenship and a place to live, plus some oil, to Xi.

In return for arms.
 
There is a strand of Russian nationalism that holds Siberia to be the true Russia, unsullied by any Western influences, in stark contrast to certain regions we could mention, eh, St Petersburg? Putin seems to genuinely believe in some quite esoteric ideas around Russianness and Eurasianism, and he has been vocal about his determination to keep Russia whole - this is not empty rhetoric: the two Chechen wars of 20-30 years ago were prosecuted with such intensity precisely because of the fear that the Russian Federation would collapse along similar lines to the USSR. The word "Federation" in the official country name is no accident - from memory, 51% of RF territory is comprised of autonomous regions and republics like Chechnia. If they had been allowed to secede, the great fear was that other regions would seek to follow suit. Which is a long-winded way of agreeing with @Victory.

My Dad said when he was shipped to the Siberian work / death camps, it was so cold his hands would stick to anything metal, so he had to be careful, it is way below zero there at times.

Your dad survived the Gulag?! Wow, that is no small achievement. And he was able somehow to then make his way to the USA? Have you told his story on here before? If not, would you be willing to share it with us? I was a Russian historian in an earlier phase of my life, and I'd be fascinated to learn more. I'm sure I'm not the only one.
 
I think there's going to be a military alliance between Russia and China. They're both performing joint military exercises.
 
Your dad survived the Gulag?! Wow, that is no small achievement. And he was able somehow to then make his way to the USA? Have you told his story on here before? If not, would you be willing to share it with us? I was a Russian historian in an earlier phase of my life, and I'd be fascinated to learn more. I'm sure I'm not the only one.
I grew up listening to the stories of many of the people who survived those times, I don't know where they found the strength.
My Dad was just a kid in Przemysl, Poland, and in 1939 the Russians invaded eastern Poland, taking millions to Siberia, and other places I'm sure. His mother died in the camps, she lost her mind and could not handle it. My Dad lost track of his father, older sister and younger sister. He came down with dysentery and was very ill, don't know exactly how he got out of Russia, but the Polish troops picked him up and put him in the hospital for 6 months to recover. He said if he was not so young, he would never have lived.
He was years too young to join the army, but being so ill aged him and he lied about his age to join the Polish Second Corps under General Wladyslaw Anders. While training with the men's Polish troops, the women's troops were training across the fence, and his older sister was there - she had gotten out of Siberia and ran to the fence, to tell him to meet her in England, when the war was over that was her plan. He went to Iran, Iraq, Egypt (saw and went inside the Pyramids), and was at the Battle of Monte Cassino in Italy, which he would never speak about until the end of his life, many thousands of Polish people lost their lives and are buried there. In Italy he met an Italian woman and wanted to marry her, but he was still years too young and had to have permission of his Commander, who refused. He said when the war was over, he could return.
But when the war was finally over, he traveled to England and found his older sister, she had married a Polish Army veteran and they were planning to eventually travel to the United States. My Dad met my British Mum while living there, they married at your St. Theresa's Church in Beaconsfield, and they joined his sister in the USA.
They then found their younger sister, nuns had smuggled her out of Russia and got her to the USA. She left the convent and married a millionaire and had her own family.
My Dad's father married a Russian woman and had a whole other family, he remained in Russia for the rest of his life, but was adamantly against the Russian government, and highly critical also of China. Odd how correct he was in warnings to my Dad.
How the people of those times managed to survive is unbelievable, where did they get the strength. And they were the happiest people!
 
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Well Ronnie Jersey I feel like history has recycled and WW II is happening again.

The ICC has called Putin a criminal because he has stolen 16,000 children from the Ukraine.

I really can’t even comprehend this tragedy.

How do these kids ever find their families again.

I know an elderly British lady in our area who still suffers physiological mental problems from the London bombings.

Her family got to a bomb shelter just in time as her house was destroyed by a German bomb.
 
I think there's going to be a military alliance between Russia and China. They're both performing joint military exercises.
Well let's hope not. Whilst the Chinese Communist Party and Putin's neo-Soviet regime obviously have a fair bit in common, remember that at the UN, China abstained from voting, rather than overtly supporting Russia's war against Ukraine.
I suspect China will play it cautiously. They cannot afford to alienate the free world too much, as they need a market to sell their tat to.
Will be interesting to see what emerges from the Putin/Xi summit.
 
I think one of the stumbling blocks with getting a proper hold on this is that geographical, historical, political, ideological (etc) Siberias don't actually appear to be quite the same things. I may be wrong - but I'm sure @Krepostnoi can give us a better idea of that. It's actually quite a fascinating subject.

(Of course, that nebulousness does open up the possibility for Russian negotiators to swap trillions of dollars worth of military equipment for two acres of swamp and a shed a five hour train ride from Irkutsk: Yes, my friend - but you never said which Siberia.)

In purely practical terms, although Siberia is considered to be sparsely populated, it still apparently contains something like one fifth of the Russian population, and I doubt that Putin can afford to lose 20% of his potential draft base just now - even for a very hefty transfer of hardware.

Strategically - Siberia for Ukraine? Five million square miles for less than a quarter of a million? The latter may be more developed, but the former is bursting with resources. And such a transfer of land and population would completely contradict the purported aims of the current war.

Siberia also forms a buffer zone between the east and the more populous (albeit maybe less 'Russian' to one of those esoteric purists) west. Moving the eastern border several thousands of miles closer to Moscow would surely be utterly unthinkable for a Russian leader. (My knowledge of the geography of that area is not perfect, but would the loss of Siberia - at least as a whole entity - not bring China's land border to Yekaterinburg?) It would also surely involve the loss of all of Russia's Pacific ports - including Vladivostok. Which, again, I cannot believe any Russian leader, however bonkers, would even consider considering.
 
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Well Ronnie Jersey I feel like history has recycled and WW II is happening again.

The ICC has called Putin a criminal because he has stolen 16,000 children from the Ukraine.

I really can’t even comprehend this tragedy.

How do these kids ever find their families again.

I know an elderly British lady in our area who still suffers physiological mental problems from the London bombings.

Her family got to a bomb shelter just in time as her house was destroyed by a German bomb.
My Mum was living outside of London during the bombings, she was just a little girl.
They had to use 'blackout' shades on the windows at night, no lights.
But at school she would notice the empty desks, from the bombings the night before.
She was sent to live with relatives way out in the country, after their house was bombed.
As I've written elsewhere here, my Grandmother knew the house would be bombed, so the family slept a mile away out in the forest, and in the morning when they went back, whole blocks of homes were gone.
My Mum had the photos.
 
Well Ronnie Jersey I feel like history has recycled and WW II is happening again.

The ICC has called Putin a criminal because he has stolen 16,000 children from the Ukraine.

I really can’t even comprehend this tragedy.

How do these kids ever find their families again.
It makes no sense. Think of the logistics of rounding up 16,000 kids and in the middle of a war? And for what purpose?

We they stolen or rescued?
 
It makes no sense. Think of the logistics of rounding up 16,000 kids and in the middle of a war? And for what purpose?...

It makes sense within the context of the Russian historical experience. Population transfer and forced resettlement was a trademark of Soviet policy - and in vastly larger numbers than those quoted in this context. The abduction and movement of children is also one with historical precedent - it was part of the Polish experience during WW2, and occurred on a lesser scale during Argentina's military dictatorship, as well as under the Pinochet regime. But this tangent is probably more relevant to the more generally based Ukraine thread than it is to this quite specifically focused one.
 
It makes no sense. Think of the logistics of rounding up 16,000 kids and in the middle of a war? And for what purpose?

We they stolen or rescued?
To be brainwashed into "good Russians", sadly. I'm not sure I will return to this thread, as the idiocy of the politics behind it makes my blood boil....
 
To be brainwashed into "good Russians", sadly. I'm not sure I will return to this thread, as the idiocy of the politics behind it makes my blood boil....
I'm not brainwashed into 'good Russians' or 'bad Russians' and my questions have nothing to do with politics. I was simply asking a question or is it a case of no questions allowed?
 
A while ago I picked up on the fact some Russians appear to want Alaska back and feel the government of the time was manipulated into selling it to the Americans. I also got that that while a lot of people think this is a huge rather black joke, or at least impractical, there are just enough who are deadly serious about at and consider that land once part of Russia should be Russia again.

Now imagine how Russians who think like that might receive the possibility that some of Siberia should be sold to China.
 
I'm not brainwashed into 'good Russians' or 'bad Russians' and my questions have nothing to do with politics. I was simply asking a question or is it a case of no questions allowed?
I don't think Dino was having a go at you Kesava. They were just saying how (in their opinion) the children were taken away to be 'brainwashed' and that the situation makes them so mad, they won't talk about it anymore.
 
I don't think Dino was having a go at you Kesava. They were just saying how (in their opinion) the children were taken away to be 'brainwashed' and that the situation makes them so mad, they won't talk about it anymore.
I didn't realise that's what Dino meant. Apologies to Dino and thanks Floyd for the correction.
 
In purely practical terms - although Siberia is considered to be sparsely populated - it still apparently contains something like one fifth of the Russian population, and I doubt that Putin can afford to lose 20% of his potential draft base just now - even for a very hefty transfer of hardware.
As I understand from an expat Russian pal, this is something of a Putin supporters area - might the story be a ruse just to reduce his support?
 
It seems very unlikely to me.

(But wouldnt Siberia be a grand haul??)
 
As for the headline question, why would China do that? China can wait for Russia to fall apart/into civil war as they lose in Ukraine and other Russian regions like Chechnya decide that Russian military weakness as shown in Ukraine means they can successfully rebel and become independent. Then China can take advantage of the Russian military being in chaos and just march into Siberia and declare it theirs and the people there have really been Chinese all along (for instance using this wikipedia sourced genetic map), followed by a Siberian equivalent of China's treatment of the Uyghurs.
 
Very unlikely verging on impossible that Russia would give up all those natural resources and all that Russian population (greatly exceeding the minority groups near the Chinese border) - and Russia and China already have a series of military treaties going back to 1949. Just another example of someone wanting to find something that sounds exciting to write about. Not to say that China wouldn't like just a little bit more territory beyond the Russian border based on the excuse of the ethnic groups living there. And just last week I read a reasonable analysis of the Chinese government's admitted current problems with insufficient population resulting from their one-child policy of past years; in terms of available land they're doing OK. So the answer seems to be - no he won't. And about Alaska - whatever wacky group in Russia wans to get it back clearly has never met any Alaskans, who probably wouldn't like the idea much.
 
I'm sorry but for these types of things I wouldn't trust wikipedia to tell the truth or rather I've no way of knowing if what is written is the truth.
Wikipedia isn't always reliable but I would suggest reading some of the articles referenced. There doesn't seem to be much doubt that children have been abducted by the Russians.
 
I'm sorry but for these types of things I wouldn't trust wikipedia to tell the truth or rather I've no way of knowing if what is written is the truth.
Just put 'children missing from Ukraine' or similar into Google & you’ll find many links. Pick a few & read to get a broad view.
 
To be brainwashed into "good Russians", sadly. I'm not sure I will return to this thread, as the idiocy of the politics behind it makes my blood boil....
I'm not brainwashed into 'good Russians' or 'bad Russians' and my questions have nothing to do with politics. I was simply asking a question or is it a case of no questions allowed?
I don't think Dino was having a go at you Kesava. They were just saying how (in their opinion) the children were taken away to be 'brainwashed' and that the situation makes them so mad, they won't talk about it anymore.
I didn't realise that's what Dino meant. Apologies to Dino and thanks Floyd for the correction.
I wasn't having a go at @kesavaross - merely putting my two cents into a discussion that, understandably, makes me mad at the cruelty of the world.

All happy thoughts to @kesavaross :bpals:
 
Quite often they where offered places in summer camps and then never returned. The Telegraph has extensive coverage off it.
Do you mean summer camps in Ukraine? Thanks.
 
That sounds rather...fictional?

What kind of parent sends their kids away in the hols?
 
That sounds rather...fictional?

What kind of parent sends their kids away in the hols?
Nothing fictional about it: this was an extremely common practice in the USSR, and it has continued in the post-Soviet space.

See also the summer camps programme in the USA, not to mention the many similar camps here in the UK that cater to children from all over the world. I've got a couple of interviews lined up for summer work teaching English at some.

It's almost as though very few parents can take six weeks off during the school holidays...
 
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