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Witches (General; Compendium)

‘Witches’ was a term used by the Catholic Church to persecute anyone who remembered the oral traditions of the religion of their European country prior to their Catholic invasion/ occupation.

The reason why we have so little evidence of our previous pagan ‘mother’ religions (whether written, oral, architectural or artistic) and its veneration of ‘anti Christian’ gods is that it was all destroyed by the church with their Abrahamic invasion.

The continuing fear of ‘witches’ is a continuation of a Christian prejudice sadly still enforced in schools and culture today.
 
Amoradala said:
‘Witches’ was a term used by the Catholic Church to persecute anyone who remembered the oral traditions of the religion of their European country prior to their Catholic invasion/ occupation.
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wasn't the approach more syncretism than replacement? Many aspects of whatever came before were, deliberately or otherwise, included and perpetuated.
 
How do we know ? There is no evidential knowledge of what went before - there are theories but sadly we just don’t know what we have lost.
How do we know that the theories we have, were not Victorian invention?
 
Is "evidential knowledge" different to archaeology and history?
 
Yes, history and archeology is biased to the ‘winners’ and the narrative the academics want to promote as truthful.
Don’t underestimate the influence of the church on even modern academia.
 
Makes a nice change to being told we are biased against the winners and only in favour of social engineering and supporting the underdogs.

One of the most exciting (and best rewarded) things you can do as an academic is to upset the apple cart.
 
If exciting is having your funding pulled - losing your position and reputation and future employment prospects.

What examples can you give for ‘upsetting the apple cart’ ?
 
Amoradala said:
If exciting is having your funding pulled - losing your position and reputation and future employment prospects.
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what country is this in?

I'm thinking about, for example, changes in dating and chronology, changes in understanding of the shift and movement of peoples, changes in the theoretical basis of the subject.
 
My point is - your examples of scientific discoveries that ‘upset the apple cart’ probably don’t challenge the church’s wilful control of how our history is perceived.

My original post said that former non abrahamic religions were destroyed by desecration and murder, led by Christian invading armies.

You as an academic defended the Christian standpoint. And I understand why - it’s what you were taught, you’re defending the paradigm outlined by the church, and your defence of it - makes my point.
 
Amoradala said:
You as an academic defended the Christian standpoint. And I understand why - it’s what you were taught, you’re defending the paradigm outlined by the church, and your defence of it - makes my point.
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as an academic I joined in a discussion. You don't know what my biases are unless you ask and /or engage in the discussion.

Which country are you talking about?

Academics come in all sorts of colours and backgrounds, although the bias is still white, male and middle class.

What about, say, a pagan historian?
 
Amoradala said:
Hmm, there’s that social engineering you mentioned.
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How is describing the situation social engineering? Failing to acknowledge the situation means that inherent biases are not confronted.

I'm asking

* which country and education system are you basing this on?
* what about people who, in themselves, don't fit the view you are suggesting?
* if you are aware that personal and societal bias is something that everyone in the system is aware of?
* if you are aware that people try to break out of their conditioning and that this is strongly encouraged in both research and teaching?
* what your personal experience of this is?
 
I have to agree with Frideswide. A discussion cannot take place without setting a basis for where to start the discussion.
 
I have read a book written by Raven Grimassi about the Italian tradition of the Strega, though I cannot say that this is the full history of the tradition. He does claim that the tradition is in his family.

So I do know that not all traditional witch history has been destroyed by Christian religion. It can be found. It just is not common knowledge.
 
We need to define time periods too - early church is different to crusade and inquisition, is different to reformation, renaissance and New World.
 
On the other hand, what reason is there to think the people called witches were part of any longer tradition? Rather than just people who think they had magic powers, as we even have today.
 
I think I'd start by looking at the word - witch in english but what words are used in "which trials"? and how good a traslation of what happens in other countries is "witch".
 
Xanatic* said:
On the other hand, what reason is there to think the people called witches were part of any longer tradition? Rather than just people who think they had magic powers, as we even have today.
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‘ Witches’ were what the invading Christians called the women who remembered the traditions myths and folklore of their native upbringing. They were accused of worshipping anti Christian Gods and practicing sorcery by the church to justify their ( and their religion’s ) extermination.
The men could be killed without as much justification - they were just the collateral damage of war.

The practicing witches and satanist’s of today are actually confirming the church’s bias by maintaining their assertion :
Satan (Christian invention) = bad
Jesus = good
Witches = practicing magic = anti Christian

There’s nothing to suggest the people they were invading, practised magic or considered they did - that was a Christian invention.
 
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Mostly christianity didn't spread by invasion and population replacement. New world may differ, depending on your view. Can you tie this down to country please? and date too :) Are you talking about Italy pre Constantine? UK post James 6th and 1st?

Can we look also at the word "witch"? My impression is that it's a vernacular word and quite late in the sense of "witch trial". We will need to unpick the difference between "witch", heretic and latin/non english words - unless you think we don't?
 
"Witches’ were what the invading Christians called the women who remembered the traditions myths and folklore of their native upbringing. "

Yes, that is what you said. What do you have to back it up with?
 
what evidence would you accept and from what sources ?
Current academic papers ?
 
Yes, that would be fine.
 
I suppose that's one source... but we don't have to be specific yet I suggest.

Just an establishing of the basics of your thesis so we can see if we agree or don't. Still don't know that.

These are the current questions I think?

Relevant to "
"Witches’ were what the invading Christians called the women who remembered the traditions myths and folklore of their native upbringing. "

* geographical area
* era
* the word "witch"

and before that, relevant to the playing field (what you think about "evidential evidence" versus "academic evidence"

* which country and education system are you basing this on?
* what about people who, in themselves, don't fit the view you are suggesting?
* if you are aware that personal and societal bias is something that everyone in the system is aware of?
* if you are aware that people try to break out of their conditioning and that this is strongly encouraged in both research and teaching?
* what your personal experience of this is?
* How is describing a situation social engineering?
* what about, say, a pagan historian or archaeologist?

I'm trying to get things laid out so that I don't get wildly confused :rollingw:
 
Well you are hardly going to find evidence that counters your belief in the this by refusing to read and critique them!

Edit to add - was your question about if they would be acceptable sources posed with an intent to deliver that as a punchline? Lack of good faith? :( Please say that it wasn't......
 
Alright, what else have you got?
 
Europe
Roman invasions
‘Witches’ or whatever the terminology and language they used for their concept of ‘witch’ (I have outlined ) at that time.
There is no “evidential evidence” that survived.
Christian based education.
Not talking about individuals - only established axioms.
Yes there are social biases (that is what I’m saying)
-
-
Social engineering- You brought up ‘white middle class males’ for some reason. The myth of the tyrannous white male is currently being used to promote diversity and equality (social engineering)
Do you mean a historian that researches paganism or a historian that practices Paganism ?
 
Amoradala said:
Europe
Roman invasions
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313 is Edict of Milan. Which decriminalised Christaianity in the roman empire before that it is extremely unlikely that any official (and the Roman Army was based on "official") attempt would have been made to promulgate Christianity. Rome worked by absorbing and having no problem with local belief systems. All you had to do was include the offical cults in your pantheon and all was fine and dandy. The exception is human sacrifice which they weren't keen on at all - look at the propaganda stuff about the german tribes and especially the Druids in the british isles.

Christians were a problem because they

a) didn't accept the official line in tandem
b) appealed to the less powerful and therefore seemed to be fomenting a change in the status quo.

The empire didn't like to invade and take over. It aimed to establish client areas to act as buffers, using their troops and population to keep the borders secure. Within the borders it was as I have said above.

This is a neat graphic on Wikipedia which shows the extent and date of the expansion of the empire.

Look at the dates. The peak comes at about 360 - and the expansion before that has switched to the east, into Judea for example. In Europe the peak is about 300. So before the persecution of the christian cult was officially terminated.

So...

* Who exactly was doing the invading you mean? The non christian roman army? the persecuting official structure?

* When were they doing it? the rough dates from above suggest that there may be no overlap when it could have been policy - so lets say... what? 20 years? 50 years? If we drill down here we can find out where the "invasions" were and so see pretty well how much territory and time this could happen in.

Amoradala said:
‘Witches’ or whatever the terminology and language they used for their concept of ‘witch’ (I have outlined ) at that time.
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I think you are using "Witches’ were what the invading Christians called the women who remembered the traditions myths and folklore of their native upbringing. " Please can you suggest where we can look to find them? as I say above, archaeology/history says that everything continued as before except for the human sacrifice thing (which may well have been simply a propaganda invention).

Amoradala said:
There is no “evidential evidence” that survived.

Christian based education.
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Primary and contemporary secondary sources?

Amoradala said:
Not talking about individuals - only established axioms.
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I don't understand this, sorry. Please can you quote some of these axioms?

Amoradala said:
Social engineering- You brought up ‘white middle class males’ for some reason. The myth of the tyrannous white male is currently being used to promote diversity and equality (social engineering)
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I brought them up to acknowledge that the current population isn't as representative of all views as would be useful. Are you criticising me for

* recognising this?
* not rejecting it all entirely?
* not stating that this is/isn't "The myth of the tyrannous white male"?


Amoradala said:
Do you mean a historian that researches paganism or a historian that practices Paganism ?
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Either, both.

Edit to add the link that show imperial expansion! D'oh!
 
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Might I please recommend.

If you download the Pinterest app, it has many exceptional photographs uploaded by subscribers and which are unavailable elsewhere online.

If you search for, 'Witches Graves', you will discover some quite fascinating substance therein.
 
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