Zionism, Anti-Semitism & Conspiracy Theories?

A

Anonymous

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#1
To try and draw the disparate, and I think important threads together, I've put together a few thoughts for discussion.

Conspiracy theories have generally involved a shadowy group ("Them".) which is covertly plotting to acquire/gain/keep some form of power/control.

Frequently these groups, in the minds of the theorists, are linked with more overt groupings, e.g. semites, catholics, bankers, communists/socialists etc.

In the minds of some people, the link is explicit, e.g. Rothschild->Zionists->Jews. The making of this connection is sometimes utilised by some extremely unpleasant characters in order to further their own ends. This can itself be part of a conspiracy; for example a number of heads of state have used the faked-up protocols of Zion in order to justify pogroms and genocide.

We have seen the effect of some of these things feeding forward, but can there also be a case for them feeding back; e.g. the step Zionist->Jews is, in the minds of some, a logical step, thus making conspiratorial claims about Zionists can be a "respectable" way to further the the cause of anti-semitism?

On the other hand, if there *really* are conspiracies there, are we taking the risk of not exploring them fully because of the stigma (e.g. anti-semitism) attached to them?

This issue appears to be key to understanding at least some aspects of conspiracy theory. We are frequently told that when assessing information we must ask what the provider has to gain from it. The 9/11 story that 4000 Jewish staff at the WTC were warned to stay at home represents a deliberate attempt at disinformation, though it quickly gained currency in some quarters.

I believe that we are all guilty, at times, of taking a piece of information at face value, just because it fits in with our world view. This is as true of left-wing conspiracies, as right-wing conspiracies. This is sometimes complicated by the fact that we really are surrounded by conspiracies:
a) The Conservative party are conspiring behind closed doors to regaing control of the UK.
b) The Labour party are conspiring to remain in power.
c) The anti-capitalists, and anti-globalisation protestors are conspiring to get there message across.

They're all at it!

Remember, "Trust no-one", least of all me.;)

Any thoughts?
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
#2
Let us not forget the conspiracies to cover up the fallout from macho posturing that engenders untold amounts of grief and knocks back world diplomacy fifty years.

i.e. Post September 11, G.W.Bush opens a world wide war on terror. For whatever reason.

Then Israel and India take him at his word. On the one hand, Israel, pulverising their weaker cohabitee and stirring more trouble than a hornet's nest. And on the other, India and Pakistan stand tippy-toe on the brink of nuclear war.

Smart move, `Monkey Boy!' Doh!

I'm a great believer in the cock-up view of history, me.
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
#3
You say world events are secretly being ruled by Lizards and you get ridiculed. You say that it's the Vatican and you get dissmised. But if you point the finger at the Zionists and you get written off as a racist.

This has always confused me... when was Zionism a race? :confused: If we want to get anywhere in the world today then we must abandon our status quo which we aquired through our history of anti-jewish paranoia. So what... perhaps a Zionist elite really are secretly orchastrating world events. Would it make much difference if i said it was the bilderbergas instead? Well according to most poeple it would. I got into trouble a while back for calling CNN the Zionist News Network. Whats the big deal? Zionism's agenda is to preserve Israel. CNN are doing a mighty fine job of that as well....

Imagine this for a second... what if a Zionist elite really are secretly orchastrating world events? What would happen? I'll tell you... the Zionists would do a mighty fine job of it. No one would dare question them. No one would dare suspect anything (at least publicly). Anyone who does would be a racist, right?

Do poeple not realise the level of anti-zionist/Israel among Jews. Of course there are many for Israel but there are also some who strongly opposed their actions.

Zionism is not a race. Semites are a race. Zionism is a movement. Every single person on this planet has the right to question this movement.

But no.... i do not, for the record, think that the Zionists secretly rule the world. Poeple give them too much credit. It appears to me that Zionism and Israel are vehicles which can be manipulated to a great extent by... particully.... the US.
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
#4
I'd better claryify. Before anybody thinks I'm making light of the horror and tragedy of September the 11th. It was a criminal act of murder. Mass murder.

There is a difference between an act of war and a policing action following a criminal act. The British Gov. were very careful to acknowledge this fact for over thirty years in dealing with Northern Ireland.

Different rules apply. Plus, acknowledging a war gave bin loader and his fanatics more credo than they deserved.
 
A

Anonymous

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#5
You say world events are secretly being ruled by Lizards and you get ridiculed. You say that it's the Vatican and you get dissmised. But if you point the finger at the Zionists and you get written off as a racist.
Adam, I'm sorry to have doubted you. Clearly, the lizards have entered your brain, already, through your bodily orifices, like that black oil stuff from the X files. Goodbye.
 

DerekH16

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#6
* Off topic *
I would give more credence to conspiracry theorists if more of them had a basic command of the English language. If you can't understand the (basic and simple) rules of grammar, why should I believe what you have to say about vast underground networks that are ruling the world?

* On topic *

The main problem with the majority of conspiracy theories is quite simple: too many people have to be involved for it to remain secret (given human nature), and, therefore, it cannot be a conspiracy; it's an open secret, which is self-defeating in this context.....

Conspiracies may exist/have existed, but if they are/were successful, we couldn't possibly know....

(Dons asbestos Y-fronts :) )
 
A

Anonymous

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#7
AndroMan said:
Adam, I'm sorry to have doubted you. Clearly, the lizards have entered your brain, already, through your bodily orifices, like that black oil stuff from the X files. Goodbye.
Not that I'm aware of. Going somewhere?
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
#8
Conspiracy theories are the information equivalent of a black hole. The warp events and other theories around themselves, sucking them in to create a singularity. A whole universe unto itself. Everything is contained within.

No matter how bizarre. It can be explained in the light of the theory. Everything becomes significant and feeds the gravitational well. Nothing can escape.

Eventually you believe everything and everything fits the theory.

We're pattern makers. We discern patterns in nature, in society. We imbue things, natural, or artificial with significance. Do the patterns really exist? What sound does a tree make crashing to the ground, in a forest, if there is no one to hear?
 
A

Anonymous

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#9
Conspiracies happen.

Fortunatly when they do there are poeple like me around to use my own mind instead of working out a pre-arranged philosophy wereby all conspiracies can be dissmised.
 

dot23

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#10
AndorMan - I have to agree with Adam to some extent. There are conspiracies (i.e. influntial groups of people who secretly turn events to their own ends). If 20 years ago you said that you thought a secret meeting of heads of state, business leaders and the like took place to discuss and shape world events, you would have been called a nut. Now there is some fairly conclusive evidence that this happens (ie. bilderberg, trilateral, etc). To lump all conspiracy theories in one basket is to put your head in the sand. If we do not question the reasons given by governments etc for military actions and other interventions we become puppets that dance when they shout dance.

I agree that all inclusive theories like the joke Illuminati plot, or Icke's Lizards, are unbelievable. But the military-industrial complex and those that benefit from it are unaccountable, extremely powerful, and undoubtedly culpable for some of the worst atrocities in recent history. To pretend that there's no connection between oil and wars in the middle east, for instance, is to fly in the face of history, logic and intuition. The very fact that this relationship is buried deep inside online press, and completely unknown by most tabloid reasders is testament to the nervousness the press have towards reporting these links. QED
 
A

Anonymous

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#11
Personally, I think the conspiracy theory outlined by Marx in the Communist Manifesto is the most credible:-
There is a small elite of rich people who exploit the rest of the world but manage to survive by dividing and subverting the working classes through a combination of religion, racism and violence.
I've never seen any evidence to suggest that this is wrong., but what we do about it, is another question.
 

dot23

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#12
chatsubo said:
Personally, I think the conspiracy theory outlined by Marx in the Communist Manifesto is the most credible:-
There is a small elite of rich people who exploit the rest of the world but manage to survive by dividing and subverting the working classes through a combination of religion, racism and violence.
I've never seen any evidence to suggest that this is wrong., but what we do about it, is another question.
divide and subvert the ruling classes through secularism, tolerance and pacifism?
 
A

Anonymous

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#14
I agree that all inclusive theories like the joke Illuminati plot, or Icke's Lizards, are unbelievable. But the military-industrial complex and those that benefit from it are unaccountable, extremely powerful, and undoubtedly culpable for some of the worst atrocities in recent history. To pretend that there's no connection between oil and wars in the middle east, for instance, is to fly in the face of history, logic and intuition.
I agree with you Dot23. I have my limits, however. Those are necessary, partially to preserve my sanity and sense of proportion. Believe in `all inclusive theories' hard enough and one day you might find yourself hermetically sealed inside them.
 
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#16
DerekH said:
* Off topic *
I would give more credence to conspiracry theorists if more of them had a basic command of the English language. If you can't understand the (basic and simple) rules of grammar, why should I believe what you have to say about vast underground networks that are ruling the world?

* On topic *

The main problem with the majority of conspiracy theories is quite simple: too many people have to be involved for it to remain secret (given human nature), and, therefore, it cannot be a conspiracy; it's an open secret, which is self-defeating in this context.....
Sorry. I don't generally like big quotes but I sympathise fully with both DerekH's observations.

As a point of order anti-semitism and anti-zionism are not necessarily the same thing. An anti-semite will most likely be anti-zionist but an anti-zionist does not have to be anti-semitic. Apologies if someone has already pointed that out.

On the subject of conspiracy I had a very lonely discussionhere a few weeks back. I still hold to the idea that an obsession with great big shiny conspiracies only serve to distract us from what is actually happening on the ground.
 

DerekH16

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#17
Oh no, I didn't really type 'conspiracry' when slagging off standards of English, did I?

I'm sure I typed 'conspiracy', and it's been altered somehow.... I smell a conspiracy, or possibly a conspiracry....
:D
 
A

Anonymous

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#18
AndroMan said:
Adam, I'm sorry to have doubted you. Clearly, the lizards have entered your brain, already, through your bodily orifices, like that black oil stuff from the X files. Goodbye.
I don't like it when poeple make irrelivent snipes at me then fail to ellaborate.
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
#19
Spook said:
As a point of order anti-semitism and anti-zionism are not necessarily the same thing. An anti-semite will most likely be anti-zionist but an anti-zionist does not have to be anti-semitic. Apologies if someone has already pointed that out.
That's quite true. I guess that the problem may be a lack of sophistication on that part of certain members of society, i.e. that being a Zionist is not the same thing as being Jewish. Unfortunately there can be a blurring of the boundaries.

I'm still unclear, however, why so-called "Zionist" conspiracy theories are so widespread in their reach. They appear in pretty much any country you care to mention (though generally they are stronger in islamic countries for obvious reasons, and frequently they *do* merge into Jewish conspiracy theories.) If the purpose of Zionism was to have a Jewish homeland in Israel, then do they need to be as large and convoluted as they are made out to be?
 

dot23

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#20
mainly the reason they're so widespread is the fallout from Nazi propaganda during wwii. The protocols of the elders of zion was a 19th c russian forgery porporting to be minutes from a secret cabal of rich jews who were trying to orchestrate history to create an artificial homeland. This was a deliberate smear on the jewish community and was used by the author, ex secret policeman Pytor Ivanovich Rachovsky, to hit back at a modernising finance minister.

Despite being widely discredited as a plagiaristic forgery, the book still circualtes today - it is cited by Icke and many others in fringe conspriracy, and is almost the anti-semitic bible, being read by far right militiamen, KKKers and other unsavoury types (and I'm being generous assuming most of these people *can* read)

The obssession with jewish global banking conspiracies is widespread amongst Muslims also - arab-speaking press in the middles east and N Africa propagating the myth of the 4000 jews who didn't turn up for work on 9/11 for months after the event.

Conspiracy theorists should beware of Zionism, as 'evidence' of it's global domination plan is often derived from anti-semitic goons. Just because some jewish people have risen to the top in banking, the media and other well paid professions is not an indiaction of their all powerfulness. If that's the case why does Woody Allen still have to beg for money for his films? No one talks about an 'Anglo-Celtic' conspiracy or a 'Teutonic' conspiracy, despite people of those racial groups having significant positions of power in the global elite. Of course many people point the finger at the Vatican (implicating all catholics?), Freemasons (implicating all fat, middle aged coppers and ex-public schoolboys?), Intellectuals (everyone who went to University?) and Communists (everyone from east of West Germany). Perhaps all these groups are involved on some level with globalisation, the rise of the NWO and a host of other evils. Or not - it's also quite possible that conspiracy theorists are the unwitting propagators of racist, anti-religious propaganda spread by governements, big businesses etc who want to discredit and undermine these groups for their own purposes.

As with any group who start out as emigrants, distanced from their families and friends, jewish people undoubtedly gave a warmer welcome to fellow jews when they appeared in their social circles, and jobs and perks went there way and perhaps not to others. This probably lead to resentment amongst working people in the film industry etc and was predated upon by racists who wanted to undermine and destroy jewish succeses in Hollywood for example.

Found a very interesting, perceptive, and well researched article Jewish Hate and the Global Conspiracy
 
A

Anonymous

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#21
I'm reminded of an old Jewish joke a friends grandad used to say:
One day in small Jewish village out in the Ukrainian Pale, Goldman is working home when he sees his poor neighbour, Abraham, sitting on the steps of his dishevilled hovel reading a copy of the Protocols of the Elders of Zion.
'Abraham,abraham, why are you wasting your time reading rubbish like that'
'Ah, Mr. Goldman, I look around my house and my village, and I see that I have nothing and most of my people are poor. But I read this book and I see that I control the world and my people are richer beyond their wildest dreams;
(Its probably funnier in Yiddish)
(PPS. I think one of the main reasons for the popularity of Jewish conspiracies is a throwback to the medevial days when Christians were forbidden to lend money for a profit, so Jews were naturally identified with finance and or dodgy dealings.)
 
A

Anonymous

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#22
(PPS. I think one of the main reasons for the popularity of Jewish conspiracies is a throwback to the medevial days when Christians were forbidden to lend money for a profit, so Jews were naturally identified with finance and or dodgy dealings.)
And outside of the small jewish enclaves most other professions and trades were closed, or forbidden to them. Oh, and there was a much higher degree of literacy and numeracy amongst the Jewish communities. Very suspicious!
 
A

Anonymous

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#23
It is ironic that the conspiracy community is so distrustful of any statement that could be seen as supportive of governments or big corporations, but that there is a blind spot when talk of Zionist conspiracies arise from decidely iffy quarters. The critical faculties have a tendency to be deployed in a rather selective fashion.

Also remember that, I as said at the start, there are conspiracies all around us. Its just that normally we call it politics. An example from many years back. When at university I happened to take part in a sit-in protest in the university library. (Seemed like a good idea at the time, the university authorities were wanting to close the student health centre. The whole thing turned into a vodka drinking session between the bookshelves. :cross eye) Anyway, at the time, there were moves to change the constitution of the union to make it more inclusive of the wider student body; not just for the politicos who saw it as a springboard to a career in politics. As I wandered around the library during the night, I came across a largish group of student RCP (Revolutionary Communist Party) members engaged in a discussion about how they were going to defeat the constitution change. What did they decide on? Was it reasoned debate? No, it was "Lets all get there early, so that there isn't room for the people likely to vote in favour of the motion." Was this democratic? No. Was this a conspiracy? Yes. Is this typical of the way that political parties, and pressure groups operate? I would imagine so.

So let us all examine everything with a critical eye. It is entirely possible that the conspiracy theory is actually part of a conspiracy (and I use that word in its broadest sense) against the group accused.

By the way, Chatsubo, great joke. I had heard it a long time ago, but had forgotten the punchline.:)
 

Mike_Pratt33

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#24
chatsubo said:
Personally, I think the conspiracy theory outlined by Marx in the Communist Manifesto is the most credible:-
There is a small elite of rich people who exploit the rest of the world but manage to survive by dividing and subverting the working classes through a combination of religion, racism and violence.
I've never seen any evidence to suggest that this is wrong., but what we do about it, is another question.

How can anyone tell if the religion, racism and violence are a conspiricy or a consequence of human nature. My belief is the latter.

Communisms fails because people are greedy, selfish and stupid.
Capitalism succeeds for precisely the same reasons.
 
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#26
I'm reviving this old Thread as I think this review of an interesting book fits in here. The myth of a specifically Jewish Communism which has lived on.

An extract from the review:

In April 1919 Eugenio Pacelli, the papal nuncio in Munich (and future Pope Pius XII), reported to the Vatican that the communist-led Bavarian Soviet (which existed for less than a month before it was crushed by the counterrevolutionary Freikorps) was composed entirely of Jews. One of its leaders, Max Levien, was described as “also a Russian and a Jew,” “dirty,” “vulgar,” “repulsive,” and “sly.” Levien was in fact a Russian émigré to Germany, a four-year veteran of the German army, and a non-Jew. This did not, as Hanebrink observes, signify an exceptionally anti-Semitic disposition on the part of Pacelli but simply reflected the “utterly typical” consensus of virtually all European conservatives at that time.

The Fake Threat of Jewish Communism

Christopher R. Browning
FEBRUARY 21, 2019 ISSUE
A Specter Haunting Europe: The Myth of Judeo-Bolshevism

by Paul Hanebrink
Belknap Press/Harvard University Press, 353 pp., $29.95

One of the great merits of Paul Hanebrink’s A Specter Haunting Europe is its demonstration of how Europe’s most pervasive and powerful twentieth-century manifestation of anti-Semitic thought—the myth of Judeo-Bolshevism—emerged before the rise of National Socialism and has continued to have a curious life long after the Holocaust and the defeat of Nazi Germany. Hanebrink’s approach is not to repeat what he considers an error of the interwar era—the futile attempt to refute a myth on the basis of historical facts and statistical data. A small kernel of truth underpinned the stereotype of the Jewish Bolshevik: a number of well-known early Bolshevik leaders (Béla Kun, Leon Trotsky, Karl Radek, and others) were of Jewish origin. That Stalin killed almost all of them, that overall a very small percentage of Jews were Bolsheviks, and that many prominent non-Jewish revolutionaries (Lenin and Karl Liebknecht, for example) were mistakenly identified as Jewish had no countervailing impact, because, Hanebrink writes, the Jew as “the face of the revolution” was a “culturally constructed” perception.

Trying to discredit powerful political myths with mere facts, as we know all too well today, is a frustrating endeavor. Thus Hanebrink seeks instead to understand the historical background and the “cultural logic” of the myth of Judeo-Bolshevism—how it functioned and morphed through different phases. Ultimately Judeo-Bolshevism embodied, in the form of “Asiatic barbarism,” an imagined threat to national sovereignty, ethnic homogeneity, and Western civilization conceived as traditional European Christian hegemony. It fused, in short, political, racial, and cultural threats into a single “specter haunting Europe.”

https://www.nybooks.com/articles/20...&utm_term=The Fake Threat of Jewish Communism
 
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#27
The nazis also feared Jewish-Marxist ‘art’ manifestation,”. An interesting article which provides a history and evaluation of the Bauhaus Movement.

The Nazis in Dessau sought, according to one fascist editorial, nothing less than “the disappearance from German soil of one of the most prominent places of Jewish-Marxist ‘art’ manifestation,” and they were not going to relent.

How Bauhaus Redefined What Design Could Do for Society
A century after its founding, the German school of art and architecture remains one of the most transcendent — and frustrating — movements of the Modernist age.

By Nikil Saval Feb. 4, 2019

ON APRIL 11, 1933, the architect Ludwig Mies van der Rohe stepped off the tram in the Steglitz neighborhood in southwest Berlin, crossed a bridge and found that his place of work had been surrounded by the Gestapo. The Bauhaus, where he taught and served as the director, had occupied an old telephone factory building there since 1932. The school first opened in Weimar in 1919, as a place for uniting craftsmanship with the arts in the service of architecture; over time, it changed, becoming more about uniting art with industrial techniques. Once Mies took over the directorship in 1930, it became almost purely a school for architecture.

But this instability, even vagueness, of purpose helped propagate its influence. In just over a decade, it had become a byword for modernity in design, a symbol of a progressive age across the world, from New York to Calcutta. The Nazis perceived the Bauhaus to be, along with atonal music and Expressionist painting, yet another specimen of the globe-spanning Jewish Bolshevik conspiracy they sought to eliminate. They weren’t wrong to intuit a basic radicalism at the heart of the Bauhaus project: Uniting all of its multiple tendencies and impulses was an attempt to put art and architecture to use as social regeneration for the world’s working classes. As National Socialism steadily took power across the country, the school became itinerant, always in search of a safe home. It traveled from Weimar, where it lay not far from where the constitution of the first German Republic had been drawn up, to industrial Dessau, where it left its most enduring architectural presence, before ending up in the capital, where its time would be fleeting, with no physical testament to its having ever been there. By that point, the Bauhaus was on its third director, Mies; political developments ensured that he was to be the last. ...

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/02/04/...cid=newsltushpmgnews__TheMorningEmail__020519
 

uair01

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#28
Compromise operations, maybe by Israeli operatives
https://www.washingtonpost.com/worl...ory.html?noredirect=on&utm_term=.b7fc6afb72c7

LONDON — When mysterious operatives lured two cybersecurity researchers to meetings at luxury hotels over the past two months, it was an apparent bid to discredit their research about an Israeli company that makes smartphone hacking technology used by some governments to spy on their citizens. The Associated Press has now learned of similar undercover efforts targeting at least four other individuals who have raised questions about the use of the Israeli firm’s spyware.

The four others targeted by operatives include three lawyers involved in related lawsuits in Israel and Cyprus alleging that the company, the NSO Group, sold its spyware to governments with questionable human rights records. The fourth is a London-based journalist who has covered the litigation. Two of them — the journalist and a Cyprus-based lawyer — were secretly recorded meeting the undercover operatives; footage of them was broadcast on Israeli television just as the AP was preparing to publish this story.

All six of the people who were targeted said they believe the operatives were part of a coordinated effort to discredit them.

“There’s somebody who’s really interested in sabotaging the case,” said one of the targets, Mazen Masri, who teaches at City University, London and is advising the plaintiffs’ attorney in the case in Israel.

Masri said the operatives were “looking for dirt and irrelevant information about people involved.”

The details of these covert efforts offer a glimpse into the sometimes shadowy world of private investigators, which includes some operatives who go beyond gathering information and instead act as provocateurs. The targets told the AP that the covert agents tried to goad them into making racist and anti-Israel remarks or revealing sensitive information about their work in connection with the lawsuits.

NSO has previously said it has nothing to do with the undercover efforts “either directly or indirectly.” It did not return repeated messages asking about the new targets identified by the AP. American private equity firm Francisco Partners, which owns NSO, did not return a message from the AP seeking comment.
 

AnonyJoolz

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#29
......
I believe that we are all guilty, at times, of taking a piece of information at face value, just because it fits in with our world view. This is as true of left-wing conspiracies, as right-wing conspiracies. This is sometimes complicated by the fact that we really are surrounded by conspiracies:

a) The Conservative party are conspiring behind closed doors to regaing control of the UK.
b) The Labour party are conspiring to remain in power.
c) The anti-capitalists, and anti-globalisation protestors are conspiring to get there message across.

They're all at it!

Remember, "Trust no-one", least of all me.;)

Any thoughts?
Reading this post now, 17 years later, it seems all 3 mooted conspiracies went very awry.

And that 'Anonymous' now has a very different meaning in the context of high-speed data connections and VPNs and Tor browser.
 

blessmycottonsocks

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#30
How can anyone tell if the religion, racism and violence are a conspiricy or a consequence of human nature. My belief is the latter.

Communisms fails because people are greedy, selfish and stupid.
Capitalism succeeds for precisely the same reasons.
Or rather, communism fails because it suppresses liberty.
Capitalism succeeds because it embraces liberty.
 
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