New Blog: 'Dark' 19th Century History

[Tunn11]

Thank you for this @Tunn11 I hadn't heard about 'Harlene'. Yes there was little in the way of trading standards and consumer rights in the Victorian/Edwardian era. Will look be doing some severe websearching.
It is likely that 'Bears's Grease' was cut with dogs' fat and must have smelt vile.

Yes with the exception of the Jorvik centre and some remarks in the "traveller's guide to the middle ages" etc. there is rarely any mention of the smells of the past, strange industries, no deoderants, no running water, difficulty in heating water, etc. probably be quite an eye opener for most of us if not an eye waterer! Although I think Terry Jones once said that he was fascinated by the fact that you could smell a crusader army two miles away.

 

[Mr Bleak]

Yes with the exception of the Jorvik centre and some remarks in the "traveller's guide to the middle ages" etc. there is rarely any mention of the smells of the past, strange industries, no deoderants, no running water, difficulty in heating water, etc. probably be quite an eye opener for most of us if not an eye waterer! Although I think Terry Jones once said that he was fascinated by the fact that you could smell a crusader army two miles away.

Indeed, in my own life time....I was born 1961, have noticed changes. The idea of regular showering , clean socks and pants every day,frequent use of deoderant, was certainly not the case for many people who were about when I was young.
Found this BFI film about public wash houses in 1959 , last five minutes.

 

[Mr Bleak]

Back in March this year I wrote a blogpost about 'Peppermint Billy' , William Brown, who was hanged in Leicester in 1856, for the murder of a Tollgate Keeper aged 50 and his 9 year old grandson.
Local historian Joanne Vigor-Mungovin wrote a book about the case 'Peppermint Billy- William Brown and the Tollgate Murders of 1856' , published by 'Mango Books' 2022.
A retrial of Billy's crime was planned in Leicester.
https://bleakchesneywold.blogspot.com/2023/03/peppermint-billy-about-to-go-on-trial.html

On 18th July 2023 it was announced that Peppermint Billy was 'cleared' of the murder via said retrial

https://www.meltontimes.co.uk/herit...l-167-years-on-4222595?itm_source=parsely-api

Whilst I have a lot of respect for Joanne Vigor-Mungovin's dedication and commitment, I hold a different opinion shall we say concerning Peppermint Billy's crimes.

 

[maximus otter]

Back in March this year I wrote a blogpost about 'Peppermint Billy' , William Brown, who was hanged in Leicester in 1856, for the murder of a Tollgate Keeper aged 50 and his 9 year old grandson.
Local historian Joanne Vigor-Mungovin wrote a book about the case 'Peppermint Billy- William Brown and the Tollgate Murders of 1856' , published by 'Mango Books' 2022.
A retrial of Billy's crime was planned in Leicester.
https://bleakchesneywold.blogspot.com/2023/03/peppermint-billy-about-to-go-on-trial.html

On 18th July 2023 it was announced that Peppermint Billy was 'cleared' of the murder via said retrial

https://www.meltontimes.co.uk/herit...l-167-years-on-4222595?itm_source=parsely-api

Whilst I have a lot of respect for Joanne Vigor-Mungovin's dedication and commitment, I hold a different opinion shall we say concerning Peppermint Billy's crimes.

A sentimental modern verdict, l think:

“Case for the prosecution​

William Brown, alias Peppermint Billy, had returned to England for one thing and one thing only – to have his vile and bloody retribution on the man whose testimony saw him banished from these shores.

Billy had been wronged. That’s how he saw it. He wanted justice and he was determined to have it, casting himself in the role of avenging angel to ship’s carpenter Thomas Sarah on his long journey back to England. “Thank God we’re getting near home,” he told Sarah. “I will have my revenge and then be off again after I’ve murdered the person who sent me.”

The evidence against Billy was overwhelming, the prosecution alleged, as witness after witness was brought forward. William Moulding, a framework knitter from Bedford Street in Leicester, took the stand to tell how he had been threatened by Billy with a pistol which appeared identical to that found by police near the murder scene. Damningly, Billy’s brother, John, would say much the same thing. Another man, William Asher, also told the court he had seen the accused brandishing the gun.

Others came forward to testify that they had seen Billy wearing a distinctive brown coat, waistcoat, hat, and corduroy trousers with the buttons fastened with shoemaker’s wax. Clothes matching their description were found in a ditch close to the Grantham Road tollgate; torn-up and apparently haphazardly washed.

Yes, he had been in the area of the tollbooth, [Billy] admitted, and yes, he had called on Woodcock; but he did not kill him. He simply stopped off on his way to Nottingham. The clothes presented by the prosecution were his, said Billy, but they were not on his back when the old-timer was murdered.

“After passing a long way through Waltham I met a man,” he explained. “He told me he had had nothing for two days. I said I had nothing to eat but I had some clothes and some money. “I gave him a shilling, a pair of trousers, a waistcoat and a hat. He thanked me and bid me goodnight.” He had neither a pistol nor and knife in his possession and anyone who said he did was a liar, the accused insisted.

https://www.leicestermercury.co.uk/news/history/gruesome-double-murder-case-last-7280639

maximus otter

 

[Tunn11]

A sentimental modern verdict, l think:

“Case for the prosecution​

William Brown, alias Peppermint Billy, had returned to England for one thing and one thing only – to have his vile and bloody retribution on the man whose testimony saw him banished from these shores.

Billy had been wronged. That’s how he saw it. He wanted justice and he was determined to have it, casting himself in the role of avenging angel to ship’s carpenter Thomas Sarah on his long journey back to England. “Thank God we’re getting near home,” he told Sarah. “I will have my revenge and then be off again after I’ve murdered the person who sent me.”

The evidence against Billy was overwhelming, the prosecution alleged, as witness after witness was brought forward. William Moulding, a framework knitter from Bedford Street in Leicester, took the stand to tell how he had been threatened by Billy with a pistol which appeared identical to that found by police near the murder scene. Damningly, Billy’s brother, John, would say much the same thing. Another man, William Asher, also told the court he had seen the accused brandishing the gun.

Others came forward to testify that they had seen Billy wearing a distinctive brown coat, waistcoat, hat, and corduroy trousers with the buttons fastened with shoemaker’s wax. Clothes matching their description were found in a ditch close to the Grantham Road tollgate; torn-up and apparently haphazardly washed.

Yes, he had been in the area of the tollbooth, [Billy] admitted, and yes, he had called on Woodcock; but he did not kill him. He simply stopped off on his way to Nottingham. The clothes presented by the prosecution were his, said Billy, but they were not on his back when the old-timer was murdered.

“After passing a long way through Waltham I met a man,” he explained. “He told me he had had nothing for two days. I said I had nothing to eat but I had some clothes and some money. “I gave him a shilling, a pair of trousers, a waistcoat and a hat. He thanked me and bid me goodnight.” He had neither a pistol nor and knife in his possession and anyone who said he did was a liar, the accused insisted.

https://www.leicestermercury.co.uk/news/history/gruesome-double-murder-case-last-7280639

maximus otter

There seems to be a media driven impetus to some of this. There is a programme "Murder in my Family" or some such where two barristers re visit old cases and present new "evidence" to a High Court Judge who pronounces on whether he considers the conviction safe.

Mostly a bit silly as the law has often changed, the forensics are non existant or old and witnesses long dead. A few do look as if they have been rushed or an easy solution fixed on but the majority seem IMO to be fairly sordid murders where the culprit has been caught and "turned off" as was the law at the time.

But, it seems the producers want any modern relatives to get terribly involved in proving the innocence of some long dead Aunt/Uncle/Cousin etc. they never knew and possibly had hardly heard of just to make "good television".

 

[Mr Bleak]

A sentimental modern verdict, l think:

“Case for the prosecution​

(Cut!)

https://www.leicestermercury.co.uk/news/history/gruesome-double-murder-case-last-7280639

maximus otter

Thank you for 'The case for the Prosectuion'.
Personally everything that I have read so far -including Joanne's book makes- me think that- Billy was guilty. To be quite honest I am a bit disappointed that it seems that the coverage of the Retrial doesn't seem to have yielded anything new.
I feel that Billy's supporters are drawing on quite circular arguments. The brutal murder of an old chap and a child by an able bodied man at the peak of his physical strength flies is just so horrific by any humanitarian ethics . Billy's mental state must therefore have been beyond anything we can consider as 'sane' . Which means if he was insane then he was not morally responsible for his actions. I just think that Billy was most probably very embittered and just lashed out at two of the most vulnerable people he could find for gratuitous reasons.
Yes if we judge 19th judiciary by 21st century standards then probably we would find a lot to question. But murder is still a criminal offence now and then.

 

[Mr Bleak]

There seems to be a media driven impetus to some of this. There is a programme "Murder in my Family" or some such where two barristers re visit old cases and present new "evidence" to a High Court Judge who pronounces on whether he considers the conviction safe.

Mostly a bit silly as the law has often changed, the forensics are non existant or old and witnesses long dead. A few do look as if they have been rushed or an easy solution fixed on but the majority seem IMO to be fairly sordid murders where the culprit has been caught and "turned off" as was the law at the time.

But, it seems the producers want any modern relatives to get terribly involved in proving the innocence of some long dead Aunt/Uncle/Cousin etc. they never knew and possibly had hardly heard of just to make "good television".

I was typing my post below when this one was published. I agree with a lot written though personally think that Joanne Vigor-Mungovin , the authoress of the 'Peppermint Billy' book has quite genuine motives and is a talented historian.
I wonder if that many convictions from the 19th century would be 'safe' by 21st century standards.

 

[maximus otter]

Thank you for 'The case for the Prosectuion'.
Personally everything that I have read so far -including Joanne's book makes- me think that- Billy was guilty. To be quite honest I am a bit disappointed that it seems that the coverage of the Retrial doesn't seem to have yielded anything new.
I feel that Billy's supporters are drawing on quite circular arguments. The brutal murder of an old chap and a child by an able bodied man at the peak of his physical strength flies is just so horrific by any humanitarian ethics . Billy's mental state must therefore have been beyond anything we can consider as 'sane' . Which means if he was insane then he was not morally responsible for his actions. I just think that Billy was most probably very embittered and just lashed out at two of the most vulnerable people he could find for gratuitous reasons.
Yes if we judge 19th judiciary by 21st century standards then probably we would find a lot to question. But murder is still a criminal offence now and then.

lt seems that Billy deemed the tollgate keeper responsible for his having been transported to Oz for 13 (?) years, so it wasn’t a random crime. The kid was probably either just collateral damage, or could identify Billy as the killer.

So: “Logical”, if that’s the correct word in this case.

lt does seem odd that there’s no apparent reference to the M’Naghten Rules having been applied in the case, but maybe that’s just slack, condensed reporting of the issue.

maximus otter

 

[Mr Bleak]

lt seems that Billy deemed the tollgate keeper responsible for his having been transported to Oz for 13 (?) years, so it wasn’t a random crime. The kid was probably either just collateral damage, or could identify Billy as the killer.

So: “Logical”, if that’s the correct word in this case.

lt does seem odd that there’s no apparent reference to the M’Naghten Rules having been applied in the case, but maybe that’s just slack, condensed reporting of the issue.

maximus otter

That's great- Thank you. To be honest I hadn't considered the 'M'Naghten Rules' so appreciate the reference. Yes if Billy was deliberately targeting the Tollgate Keeper then as causing him to have been transported -or perhaps had knowledge of crimes that he was currently committing - then seems like murder to me. Yes it is possible that nine year old lad was murdered for having witnessed the killing of his grandfather, rather than Billy setting out to murder him, but the terror and pain BIlly's victims must have endured in their last minutes of life must have been agonising.

 

[Mr Bleak]

Earlier this evening was listening to BBC Radio 3 news : It was mentioned that ( Peppermint Billy's biographer )Joanne Vigor -Mungovin had attempted to raise money for a statue of Joseph Merrick, the 'Elephant Man' in Leicester, but had fallen far short of it's target.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leicestershire-66328693

The idea of a statue to Joseph Merrick had faced some criticism
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leicestershire-51012975

I don't personally have strong feelings either way about a statute, but enjoyed reading Joanne's biography of Joseph Merrick 'Joseph- The Life, Times and Places of the Elephant Man' , with its emphasis on Merrick's connection to Leicester.

 

[Mr Bleak]

Sky News have got hold of the story about the Elephant Man statue appeal failing.
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/ukne...tp&cvid=af755e2d60b843dca9aaec2b587e5bd5&ei=7

The related video on the page is titled 'This Elephant Is Finally Getting The Help It Needs' . Oh dear.

 

[frankiefelix]

I feel dreadfully sad for James and John, RIP.

 

[Mr Bleak]

I feel dreadfully sad for James and John, RIP.

Yes I take it that you mean James Pratt and John Smith hanged for sodomy in 1835? Indeed, I don't think that the State should regulate consenting sexual activity between adults in private.
Also don't think that the Prosecution even proved that sodomy had taken place. Seemed like some drunken fumbling occurred behind closed doors, which would not have actually been unlawful in 1835.

https://bleakchesneywold.blogspot.com/2023/02/there-was-no-hope-in-this-world.html

 

[escargot]

There seems to be a media driven impetus to some of this. There is a programme "Murder in my Family" or some such where two barristers re visit old cases and present new "evidence" to a High Court Judge who pronounces on whether he considers the conviction safe.

Mostly a bit silly as the law has often changed, the forensics are non existant or old and witnesses long dead. A few do look as if they have been rushed or an easy solution fixed on but the majority seem IMO to be fairly sordid murders where the culprit has been caught and "turned off" as was the law at the time.

But, it seems the producers want any modern relatives to get terribly involved in proving the innocence of some long dead Aunt/Uncle/Cousin etc. they never knew and possibly had hardly heard of just to make "good television".

That's a great series. The documents, maps etc they dig up and show are fascinating.

As you say, the law has often changed so there might have been a different outcome under modern legislation.
A famous example is Ruth Ellis, the last woman to be executed in Britain. Today she would have have the option of pleading diminished responsibility and possibly being convicted of manslaughter which would not have seen her hanged.

The defence of diminished responsibility was introduced two years after Ellis' execution.

 

[Tunn11]

That's a great series. The documents, maps etc they dig up and show are fascinating.

As you say, the law has often changed so there might have been a different outcome under modern legislation.
A famous example is Ruth Ellis, the last woman to be executed in Britain. Today she would have have the option of pleading diminished responsibility and possibly being convicted of manslaughter which would not have seen her hanged.

The defence of diminished responsibility was introduced two years after Ellis' execution.

It is one of the better programmes and must involve a lot of research, I think I just get fed up with the forced emotional involvement that seems to have to be part of that sort of TV programme nowadays. Repairing old items, finding out about events in ancestor's lives, etc. is interesting enough in itself.

Some of the stories are uplifting and some are unjust, at least by today's standards and some are really sad. But I can't believe everyone is moved to floods of tears on having a vase they've neglected for thirty years being restored or finding that someone they didn't know existed ten minutes before spent time in a workhouse.

I think Fiona Bruce said that she was determined not to cry at one story but it was obviously what the programme makers wanted, with the build up to the story, the camera in her face, etc.

Of course Billy Connolly's response to being told one of his ancestors was a syphilitic alcoholic was "Ohh! You dirty bugger."

Having worked on my family tree I might get upset on finding out about a tragedy that affected a relative I knew but while some stories about others are tragic not knowing anything about them, their attitudes or even how they may have got into a situation I find I can't get that emotionally involved. Maybe just me....

 

[escargot]

It is one of the better programmes and must involve a lot of research, I think I just get fed up with the forced emotional involvement that seems to have to be part of that sort of TV programme nowadays. Repairing old items, finding out about events in ancestor's lives, etc. is interesting enough in itself.

Some of the stories are uplifting and some are unjust, at least by today's standards and some are really sad. But I can't believe everyone is moved to floods of tears on having a vase they've neglected for thirty years being restored or finding that someone they didn't know existed ten minutes before spent time in a workhouse.

I think Fiona Bruce said that she was determined not to cry at one story but it was obviously what the programme makers wanted, with the build up to the story, the camera in her face, etc.

Of course Billy Connolly's response to being told one of his ancestors was a syphilitic alcoholic was "Ohh! You dirty bugger."

Having worked on my family tree I might get upset on finding out about a tragedy that affected a relative I knew but while some stories about others are tragic not knowing anything about them, their attitudes or even how they may have got into a situation I find I can't get that emotionally involved. Maybe just me....

As I'm always keen to mention, a forebear of mine was hanged for sheep-stealing. Relations doing the family tree found this out.

It gives me mixed feelings: I know a lot about the law of the time and understand that a condemned person wasn't necessarily executed. They could petition for a reprieve and possibly have the sentence changed to years of hard labour or transportation, for example.

So was my poor criminal relation hanged because he was a frequent offender, or as an example to others, or just because he couldn't muster a good enough petition for mercy?

It all comes down to the Bloody Code. No justice there.

 

[Tunn11]

As I'm always keen to mention, a forebear of mine was hanged for sheep-stealing. Relations doing the family tree found this out.

It gives me mixed feelings: I know a lot about the law of the time and understand that a condemned person wasn't necessarily executed. They could petition for a reprieve and possibly have the sentence changed to years of hard labour or transportation, for example.

So was my poor criminal relation hanged because he was a frequent offender, or as an example to others, or just because he couldn't muster a good enough petition for mercy?

It all comes down to the Bloody Code. No justice there.

That's the trouble with these things, you rarely get the full picture. Was he starving and reduced to doing what he did or an international sheep smuggler who bankrupted thousands of shepherds?

 

[escargot]

That's the trouble with these things, you rarely get the full picture. Was he starving and reduced to doing what he did or an international sheep smuggler who bankrupted thousands of shepherds?

Under the Bloody Code you hardly needed to sneeze too loud for a date with the noose. People could be hanged for what we'd now call shoplifting, or for being out at night with a blackened face.

However, in practice most offenders were not hanged. Juries often showed their disapproval of the over-severe Code with Not Guilty verdicts and even after conviction, as previously mentioned, it was possible for individuals to escape execution by various legal means.

So my Shropshire forebear was as unlucky as he was dishonest.
The sheep could not be reached for comment.

Incidentally, as I've also recounted, that branch of my family lived in the same village as that of Clive of India. Clive was sent off to join the Army at a young age because he was a troublesome youth who'd get into drunken tavern fights.

I like to think of Clive brawling with those rough farm lads, maybe getting a pasting from one of my own.

 

[escargot]

Having worked on my family tree I might get upset on finding out about a tragedy that affected a relative I knew but while some stories about others are tragic not knowing anything about them, their attitudes or even how they may have got into a situation I find I can't get that emotionally involved. Maybe just me....

Some of the people in the programme have heard the family story of injustice all their lives, or might have had a shock when finding out as adults.
Either way they are self-selecting as subjects for the series. People who weren't all that bothered wouldn't make good TV!

A very good series about executions was hosted by Edward Woodward many years ago.

One of the stories was of a murderess whose grandson (or great-grandson) became interested when he discovered that his father/grandfather had been born in Chester Castle!

This was on his birth certificate because the baby's mother was there under sentence of death.
The descendant had never been told what happened and only his interest in the family tree brought it to light.

 

[escargot]

Earlier this evening was listening to BBC Radio 3 news : It was mentioned that ( Peppermint Billy's biographer )Joanne Vigor -Mungovin had attempted to raise money for a statue of Joseph Merrick, the 'Elephant Man' in Leicester, but had fallen far short of it's target.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leicestershire-66328693

The idea of a statue to Joseph Merrick had faced some criticism
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leicestershire-51012975

I don't personally have strong feelings either way about a statute, but enjoyed reading Joanne's biography of Joseph Merrick 'Joseph- The Life, Times and Places of the Elephant Man' , with its emphasis on Merrick's connection to Leicester.

We had a poster called Merrick who claimed to be related to the Elephant Man. They explained that Joseph's deformities were genetic and certain aspects of them had appeared in other members of the extended family over the years.

Our own @DrPaulLee is a distant relation.

 

[Tunn11]

Some of the people in the programme have heard the family story of injustice all their lives, or might have had a shock when finding out as adults.
Either way they are self-selecting as subjects for the series. People who weren't all that bothered wouldn't make good TV!

A very good series about executions was hosted by Edward Woodward many years ago.

One of the stories was of a murderess whose grandson (or great-grandson) became interested when he discovered that his father/grandfather had been born in Chester Castle!

This was on his birth certificate because the baby's mother was there under sentence of death.
The descendant had never been told what happened and only his interest in the family tree brought it to light.

I know that a lot of the Slebs who were going to feature on Who Do You Think You Are never got on there because all of their ancestors were boring sods who never did anything! Like most of mine they were AgLabs (Agricultural labourers) with nothing much recorded except birth, marriage, census returns and death.

I like watching the Slebs faces when it's revealed that Great, Great Grandaddy so and so was born in ..... Birmingham when they were hoping for Australia and a trip out on the BBC.

It is frustrating not to know the whole story though. One of my ancestors married a Sarah Cooper in Bedfordshire in 1740 but I don't know (and I've got hold of every document I can) which Sarah Cooper. If she was the daughter of Oliver St John Cooper I can take the line back through Civil War Generals, Lord Mayors of London, A Tudor financer who sponsored the John Smith expedition, constables of Kent and an assistant to the Archbishop of Canterbury in 1140. If it was the other Sarah Cooper - they were agricultural labourers!

 

[DrPaulLee]

We had a poster called Merrick who claimed to be related to the Elephant Man. They explained that Joseph's deformities were genetic and certain aspects of them had appeared in other members of the extended family over the years.

Our own @DrPaulLee is a distant relation.

He is indeed, via the Potterton family from Leicester. When I was conducting some family tree research about 2007 I was in contact with a cousin of my dad. He told me his connection and it struck me that it was a very distant relation. My knowledge of the Potterton/Lee line isn't wonderful but no one I know (my dad, my late nana, my dad's sister and her two children) ever showed any sign of the deformities. It doesn't seem to be widely known. When I told my dad of the family connection he was blown away. I thought if he knew of anyone with deformities (as he knew more of the older people in the lineage) he'd have mentioned it then: "funny you should say that..." - but he didn't. I don't even think his sister knew.

 

[escargot]

I know that a lot of the Slebs who were going to feature on Who Do You Think You Are never got on there because all of their ancestors were boring sods who never did anything! Like most of mine they were AgLabs (Agricultural labourers) with nothing much recorded except birth, marriage, census returns and death.

I like watching the Slebs faces when it's revealed that Great, Great Grandaddy so and so was born in ..... Birmingham when they were hoping for Australia and a trip out on the BBC.

It is frustrating not to know the whole story though. One of my ancestors married a Sarah Cooper in Bedfordshire in 1740 but I don't know (and I've got hold of every document I can) which Sarah Cooper. If she was the daughter of Oliver St John Cooper I can take the line back through Civil War Generals, Lord Mayors of London, A Tudor financer who sponsored the John Smith expedition, constables of Kent and an assistant to the Archbishop of Canterbury in 1140. If it was the other Sarah Cooper - they were agricultural labourers!

I too am descended from a long line of village idiots.

One branch arrived in the middle of nowhere from the south east where my distant relations are currently doing very well indeed, thank you very much.

 

[Tunn11]

I too am descended from a long line of village idiots.

I'm sure it's a respectable profession, it's all these amateur idiots that ruin it.

 

[ramonmercado]

I'm sure it's a respectable profession, it's all these amateur idiots that ruin it.

Proper ones hold conventions.

 

[Mr Bleak]

Have updated blog with a post about 'The Beetle' by Richard Marsh, from 1897, which became an Edwardian bestseller. Probably best described as an occult horror novel.
https://bleakchesneywold.blogspot.com/2023/08/the-beetle-by-richard-marsh-1897.html

 

[Mr Bleak]

Interesting posts about Family History. Hope that I've liked all the relevant ones in the thread. For years I began to wonder if I was some sort of strange person for seeing dangers in Family History. People can lose objectivity and feel that they have to identify with their ancestors' experiences and views. They can have high expectations of their ancestors and feel let down if their research does not reveal what they want.
Also get tired of how the descendants of people who are known from the Past are made a fuss of due to an accident of birth.
I am not saying that nothing constructive or helpful can come from Family History by any means.

 

[Tunn11]

Interesting posts about Family History. Hope that I've liked all the relevant ones in the thread. For years I began to wonder if I was some sort of strange person for seeing dangers in Family History. People can lose objectivity and feel that they have to identify with their ancestors' experiences and views. They can have high expectations of their ancestors and feel let down if their research does not reveal what they want.
Also get tired of how the descendants of people who are known from the Past are made a fuss of due to an accident of birth.
I am not saying that nothing constructive or helpful can come from Family History by any means.

The trouble with many on line genealogy sites now is that people are just copying information or even adding information without any proper checking or validation and the sites make these available to others. It is easy to make mistakes when there are lots of people with similar names living at similar times near to each other.

Unfortunately, as you say @Mr Bleak many people are obsessed with finding someone famous or pushing the line back as far as possible just add names to their tree with no checking. Most of the sites then alert you with "hints" and lots of people just add them to their trees. Used properly the sites are great, digitised records available that you'd never see without the internet, used badly they just clog everything up.

I've plastered any uncertain records in my tree with warnings and removed any I've found to be wrong but I still see them turn up again and again without the warnings copied.

There is even a site about my family name which confuses my father with a distant cousin, I've e mailed three times but it's never been corrected, and I've seen trees with a father's date of birth being given as later than his supposed son.

The TV programmes are interesting but give a skewed picture of research, it often isn't sequential, it's often confusing and you often don't need to travel to Ontario to look at a record! As Spike Milligan said "......and expenses."

On the other hand, done properly, it personalises history which may bring the past to life for people who otherwise would have no interest in the subject.

 

[Mr Bleak]

Yes there are worthy aspects to family history and I do accept that sometimes personalising a colossal event such as World War 1 can be easier to try to understand by finding a family connection.
Yet I remember attending one particular World War 1 commemoration where those who could find a granddad who was somehow present in the original event were treated as some sort of superior caste. Personally I'd rather credit individuals who had done the most research into the subject.
I can also think of the descendants of a historical personage who I met who later turned out to be thwarting research into more controversial aspects of their ancestor's life, which I thought was a great shame.

 

[Kondoru]

I refuse to get involved in my family history.