Human Population Growth & Overpopulation

[Anonymous]

Re: Re: TANSTAAFL

Of course, if you had to rely on a totally voluntary system, you'd need a new kind of society. And that won't be allowed to happen in the forseeable.

Uh, beg to differ. Recycling in the US is mainly voluntary and there's a big buy in. So there's your "new kind of society".

Ta-DA!

 

[Anonymous]

Ask the aboriginal inhabitants of the Americas, or the Antipodes, about real estate.

Okay, got that, now where's your connection or did you just have an axe to grind?

 

[Anonymous]

Re: Re: Re: TANSTAAFL

Uh, beg to differ. Recycling in the US is mainly voluntary and there's a big buy in. So there's your "new kind of society".

Ta-DA!

Well, that's good. Can't be very effective though, otherwise the bottle, can, plastic and paper manufacturers would be putting pressure on GWB to bring in legislation to stop it.

Okay, got that, now where's your connection or did you just have an axe to grind?

No. But, the flip quote, NSTAAFL, is nothing more than a culturally specific truism. it certainly makes straight forward sense in an ultra-capitalist society where the big money has ensured that everything has a price tag. Eventually, even the air we breath will come in brand label cans.

Can I imagine situations where it's possible to get more out than is put in? Situations where it's possible to get something, if not for nothing, at least knowing that it wasn't at the cost of grinding somebody else's face into the dust, or of being ground down in return. Yeah. But, these days it's getting harder.

Onwards ever upwards, eh?

 

[Anonymous]

free lunch

You are right, it is going to be a close thing...
Back in the seventies, when I did my Environmental science degree, the Club of Rome was expecting the resources crash around now-
and to be honest, here we are on the brink of a war to be fought about oil.
But the most depressing scenarios predict a bit of breathing space until 2030-
time we must spend in developing solar power and nanotechnology.

There is a free lunch up there, you know- we use less than a mllionth of the incident sunlight that falls on the earth, and the earth intercepts a billionth of the sun's total output.
Eventually it is true, we will be using all that power to full efficiency, but that day is a long way off.
We have to be optimistic in order to reach the stage where we can access that bounty.
That is why I left Greenpeace -
the pessimistic approach makes every pollution incident world threatening, every use of energy suspect, and particularly they have an idea about educating the poor countries out of having children.
Education is the answer alright, but family planning takes care of itself in a wealthy power-rich society.

 

[Anonymous]

oiloiloiloiloiloiloiloiloiloil

One move wich is nesesary to the prolonging of our stay on this hear planet is for goverments to REALY develop public transport infrastructures and to inpose heavy penelties on car use.

Can anyone see that happening? Well, yes I can.

Soon it will be a necesity and you'll se it happening all over the developed world. Trust me, in our lifetimes.

 

[Anonymous]

Re: oiloiloiloiloiloiloiloiloiloil

One move wich is nesesary to the prolonging of our stay on this hear planet is for goverments to REALY develop public transport infrastructures and to inpose heavy penelties on car use.

The major problem with a fully integrated, affordable and working, public transport system is that it would have to be subsidised. The payback would be indirect in things like increased, commuter travel efficiency lower pollution levels, less road use, fewer traffic jams,etc (you know the song. Unfortunately, this is just one of the areas in which a global free market system was never designed to cope.

Carve up the rail, bus and tube system for quick profit and laugh at the poor bloody commuters from behind the bullet proof glass of your lackey driven roller, mate, sort of stylee!

 

[Anonymous]

This thread's wavering.

If we look at overpopulation in a nice simple theoretical model, we can see that if each individual needs X resources to live, and there's a finite resource pool, then eventually someone will be born who can't be fed.

Technical advances will mean that we can reduce X by means of efficiency, but the point will eventually come, all other things being equal, when we run out of resources. Space, air, energy, food - Malthus was just talking about food.

Taking it to its reductio ad absurdam finale, there are approximately five hundred million square kilometres of surface to the world. If you pave it, give everyone a one metre square perfect solar panel powered replicator which never breaks down and provides all their needs, the maximum population of the world is 500 000 000 000 000. Which is a vast, vast number, and something we're well away from. But I betcha we'd never get there.

 

[Anonymous]

This thread's wavering.

Taking it to its reductio ad absurdam finale, there are approximately five hundred million square kilometres of surface to the world. If you pave it, give everyone a one metre square perfect solar panel powered replicator which never breaks down and provides all their needs, the maximum population of the world is 500 000 000 000 000. Which is a vast, vast number, and something we're well away from. But I betcha we'd never get there.

I reckon SoyLent Green should be on the market well before 2050. It'll be one way of dealing with the problem of all those unchecked/bogus, asylum seekers.

Police Detective Thorn:

Soon they'll be breeding us like cattle! You've got to warn everyone and tell them! Soylent green is made of people! You've got to tell them! Soylent green is people!

 

[Anonymous]

Originally posted by AndroMan
I reckon SoyLent Green© should be on the market well before 2050. It'll be one way of dealing with the problem of all those unchecked/bogus, asylum seekers.[/i]

why not send that one into the Sun, i'm sure they would be intrested.

 

[Anonymous]

Interesting reference, Soylent Green- a film taken from a novella by Harry Harrison;
'Make Room, Make Room!' doesn't imply that soylent green was made from people at all,
that was added for the film IIRC,
but it is about severe global overcrowding during the Millenium celebrations-(remember them?)
which was the prediction at the time-
Population growth forecasts have been revised downward several times since...
well, science fiction authors always get everything wrong

 

[Anome]

Interesting reference, Soylent Green- a film taken from a novella by Harry Harrison;
'Make Room, Make Room!' doesn't imply that soylent green was made from people at all,
that was added for the film IIRC,
but it is about severe global overcrowding during the Millenium celebrations-(remember them?)
which was the prediction at the time-
Population growth forecasts have been revised downward several times since...
well, science fiction authors always get everything wrong

One of Harrison's better books, and possibly the only one of his straight SF thst I've considered re-reading.

Soylent Green doesn't actually appear in the book. There is mention made of Soylent steaks, a meat substitute made of Soy and Lentils. (Hence the name.)

The movie also completely inverts the plot of the book. In the movie, there is a conspiracy that kills an influential figure and contrives to make it look like a burglary. In the book, there is a burglary which results in the murder, and the authorities insist on a thorough investigation as they suspect a conspiracy.

One of the things I find interesting about the book is some of the detail about how the society works. You have the woman who has a kid with kwashiokor, who siphons off the meat (and peanut butter) ration for her husband's meals. (Unless I'm remembering wrong. Explanation as to why coming up.) This, or something like it, happenned to my mother. As a child, she suffered from rickets, and her doctor prescribed an additional meat ration. Most of the steak thus obtained went to my grandfather, however. (Of course, why Australia still had rationing in the late 40s/early 50s isn't really clear.)

 

[Anonymous]

Re: Re: Re: Re: TANSTAAFL

Can I imagine situations where it's possible to get more out than is put in? Situations where it's possible to get something, if not for nothing, at least knowing that it wasn't at the cost of grinding somebody else's face into the dust, or of being ground down in return. Yeah. But, these days it's getting harder.

Onwards ever upwards, eh?

We are having trouble communicating because you are spouting arsefardel idealistic best of all worlds slogans and I'm asking for real practical solutions.

YES. In the best of all worlds, everyone would live to their highest ideals, be generous, and never take unfair advantage of another human being. I agree, that would be lovely. However. You will never be able to legislate that. Educate to that, yes. Please do, keep slogging away at the problem known as "human nature", and I shall as well. Good for us. In the mean time, let's try for some PRACTICAL solutions to the real problems of overpopulation, world hunger, pollution, war and disease. Without an inordinate amount of time-wasting oration?

High flown talk is all well and good but those who are willing to endlessly TALK but never go on a beach clean-up or spend a weekend daylighting a creek or even write a gol-darn letter to their political representative.....PERSONAL EFFORT, folks. Personal effort. Not exercising your jaw.

Sheesh.

 

[Anonymous]

Interesting reference, Soylent Green- a film taken from a novella by Harry Harrison;

Loved the way that the film was sold to the studios.

Attempt 1:
O.K. we want to make this serious film all about overpopulation, and food shortages.

Didn't sell.

Then they came back with:
Attempt 2:
O.K. we want to make a science fiction film about cannibalism.

Sold!

It's all down to spin.

 

[Anonymous]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: TANSTAAFL

High flown talk is all well and good but those who are willing to endlessly TALK but never go on a beach clean-up or spend a weekend daylighting a creek or even write a gol-darn letter to their political representative.....PERSONAL EFFORT, folks. Personal effort. Not exercising your jaw.

Yes. There's going to be a real shortage of grave diggers in Africa and the Middle East shortly...

 

[Anonymous]

Andro, there are times when you make connections that TBH, are not obvious to other posters. Gravediggers? Pardon me?

Also, is there some reason you don't address the specifics of the part of the post you quote? My point was specifically, people love to whinge and hate to personally get their hands dirty and take action. I cannot fix the population problem but can do something towards other closely allied problems. There. Clarification in case you needed it.

Now can you please return the favor? Or address the point of my post?

If not, make your point but don't quote my posts because your posts are not addressing my posts.

 

[Anonymous]

If not, make your point but don't quote my posts because your posts are not addressing my posts.

Yes I am a miserable whinger, aren't I?

 

[Anome]

Until he posted his own reply, I thought he might have been alluding to the fact that in parts of the third world, they are undergoing a number of disease epidemics with disturbingly high mortality rates, such that they don't have the people or time to dispose of the bodies properly, or respectfully.

Burial/cremation/etc is extremely important in areas that are undergoing epidemics, as you need to eliminate the risk of further propogating the disease from the dead. Of course, it also helps the survivors' morale if they can properly mourn for their dead. So volunteering to help bury people in Africa isn't such a stupid idea.

Then, he went and posted his follow-up, which I don't understand at all, and makes me think I may have read too much into the previous one.

 

[Anonymous]

Until he posted his own reply, I thought he might have been alluding to the fact that in parts of the third world, they are undergoing a number of disease epidemics with disturbingly high mortality rates, such that they don't have the people or time to dispose of the bodies properly, or respectfully.
.

Famines, Anome, famines in at least five countries in Africa, come the summer. And on a mind numbingly massive scale, estimates of around 30 million people in serious, life threatening danger of starving to death.

That and the threat of catastrophic human disaster being triggered in Iraq, where around 16 million people are totally dependent on food aid and the infra-structure has been more or less shot to hell, since 1991.

Cleaning litter off beaches seems more like self help than positive action. Hobby work.

Being patronised and insulted makes me obtuse and truculent, true. But, if you don't get my references and jibes, IMO, you're not really up to speed.

 

[Anonymous]

Note: I am NOT angry and I am typing this trying hard to think how it will sound to the reader. It may help to imagine it being read in a very gentle, very reasonable tone of voice. If I was speaking, that's how it would sound. Okay?

Famines, Anome, famines in at least five countries in Africa, come the summer. And on a mind numbingly massive scale, estimates of around 30 million people in serious, life threatening danger of starving to death.

[/b]

If you can identify the specifics, other than climate issues, that are causing these famines, and explain to me in clear terms what I personally am supposed to do, I will do it. But my personal complicity in these famines is escaping me at the moment. However, your posts read that I'm somehow either supposed to personally do something about these issues or I have somehow been at cause. I think further explanation in no uncertain terms is definitely called for. Otherwise you might want to modify your posts to remove quotes from MY posts that would indicate this link, or complicity.

That and the threat of catastrophic human disaster being triggered in Iraq, where around 16 million people are totally dependent on food aid and the infra-structure has been more or less shot to hell, since 1991.

Arrrr. *shakes head sadly* Back to that on a new thread. Nice. Leave it alone, can't you? You make it sound as if you want to make an American (any old american will do) personally responsible. Nope, sorry. We've been there, Androman. And while I sympathize with your distress over the looming possibility of war (in fact I share it) I cannot PERSONALLY avert this. I think that is enough said, full stop.

Cleaning litter off beaches seems more like self help than positive action. Hobby work.

Okay, if you are of the opinion that litter should just sit on the beaches rather than being cleaned up, fine. I just hope you never whinge about the trash on the shore when you go to the beach. Me, I have a sense of personal responsibility to do what I can. I think an statement like "Hobby Work" needs some sort of back up. What is it exactly, that you personally do, Androman, to make the world a better place? If the answer is 'nothing' then this appears to be "the pot calling the kettle black"

Being patronised and insulted makes me obtuse and truculent, true. But, if you don't get my references and jibes, IMO, you're not really up to speed.

Patronized and insulted? How so? If I misunderstood the train of thought you were following, and posted a reply, which in turn lead you to a response I did not understand, and which I felt did not relate to the post you quoted, then correct me! The way you responded was truculent indeed. I'd far rather you clarified things than fly off the handle.

Androman, I really do feel strongly about people who talk about how to fix the world and never actually do anything. If you are one of those people then perhaps you should feel insulted, and if not, then why in the world would you take my remarks personally? If the shoe fits, wear it. But if it doesn't fit, then why go to such lengths to comment on it being an ugly shoe?

Yes, there are horrible problems in this world. Yes, many or most of them are not fixable, on the level that you and I can influence or effect. But some can. And when it's pollution, or the environment, then one person at a time, the world can get changed. One person taking action. Not one person talking.

Can I get off this soapbox now?

 

[Anonymous]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: TANSTAAFL

We are having trouble communicating because you are spouting arsefardel idealistic best of all worlds slogans and I'm asking for real practical solutions.

TBH fallen your posts have come across quite patronising and (in places) insulting, but we all lose our rag sometimes. That's not the issue here tho.

You are right, everyone should do their part, and not just where it affects you (i.e. the beaches). It can however seem quite meaningless and out of perspective picking up a few bags of rubbish in the countryside on the same day an oil tanker dumps a million tonnes of oil into a nature reserve, or giving out soup to a hundred homeless when millions are starving in Africa.

However, grassroots are important and until the rich west is environmentally friendly, no one else will be.

 

[Anonymous]

For those that feel that the current situation involving Iraq and UN weapons inspections is about oil, I wonder what you think of the proposition in the US Congress to allow drilling in the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge (ANWR)? Part of the reason for developing this resource is to reduce dependence on foreign oil sources, and the Republicans in Congress (the party of President Bush, who is himself a vocal supporter of ANWR) are pushing for legislation to allow drilling to commence there.

About alternative energy sources...General Motors is developing hydrogen fuel cell vehicles and anticipates being able to build them cheaply enough to mass market them around 2010. While many are decrying the lack of will in Congress for demanding higher fuel efficiency standards for SUV's, I can see a method to the madness. I personally would prefer that GM and other automakers using their R&D budgets to develop fuel cells to ELIMINATE internal combustion engines, rather than use that money to tweak fuel economy on old technology.

About economic development...I agree that helping small, poor nations to build a sustainable economy is the most reasonable way to help them out of their plight. For those that are concerned about formerly poor nations becoming conspicuous consumers like the US, I feel that new technologies like Dean Kamen's Segway scooter, when new cities are planned around it, will offer the ability for these newly wealthy nations to correct the failings of the older nations.

However, it does not appear that the US and the World Bank has any serious interest in developing sustainable economies in third world countries. Rather, it appears that these countries are merely being used for their resources, keeping local populations healthy enough to make our finished goods or mine or harvest local products, but never to allow them enough money or political freedom to allow the development of a real middle class, which is as necessary as water is to life to develop a democratic gov't.

 

[Anonymous]

For those that are concerned about formerly poor nations becoming conspicuous consumers like the US, I feel that new technologies like Dean Kamen's Segway scooter, when new cities are planned around it, will offer the ability for these newly wealthy nations to correct the failings of the older nations.

Aha! Ginger raises its extraordinary head again!
I prefer bicycles myself...
Still it is an interesting image.
Thank you!

 

[Anonymous]

The Nature Of The Catastrophe

James Veldon's original question was, "Is there a problem with over population?" That's my starting point. I'm not and have not been offering solutions. There's no agreement on the extent of the problem. I believe overpopulation is a problem now, not in a future near, or far.

If you can identify the specifics, other than climate issues, that are causing these famines, and explain to me in clear terms what I personally am supposed to do, I will do it. But my personal complicity in these famines is escaping me at the moment. However, your posts read that I'm somehow either supposed to personally do something about these issues or I have somehow been at cause.

I get most of my info. from the BBC World Service. The BBC NEWS website is a valuable source of articles and info:

Story: UN Reports Famine Africa to Last Until 2004
BBC News: In Depth Report, Famine In Africa

More recent UN reports suggest that the worst consequences of the famines in Ethiopia and Southern Africa may have been averted, for the moment.

Anome was also right about the terrifying toll of disease epidemics in Africa. A recent UN report estimated some 11 million 'AIDs' orphans in Sub-Saharan Africa at the present time and countries where 1 in 3 is a carrier.

Article on George Bush pledging Billion to fight AIDs in AFrica (and Caribbean).

With regards to the looming disaster in Iraq, I made no mention of the US, British, or any other govs., or forces. The civil collapse in Iraq has been under way a long time. At least since the Iran/Iraq War.

Article on human cost of war in Iraq

And for good measure here's a background article on N. Korea and the real state of things there:

Country Profile North Korea

I'm not having a go at the US, or anybody else on this one. The North Korean Gov. got themselves into that mess. 2 to 3 million dead due to famine and natural disaster in the last decade, or so?. No, here I'm more interested in the human cost on the civilian population of these two sorry countries. Are these issues connected to Global overpopulation? I think so, though it would take another thread to explore that one.

Overpopulation is now having an effect on everything, from disease, famine and death to exhaustion of resources and conflicts that might result to pollution and the greenhouse effect. These all have a reciprocal effect on each other.

Okay, if you are of the opinion that litter should just sit on the beaches rather than being cleaned up, fine. I just hope you never whinge about the trash on the shore when you go to the beach. Me, I have a sense of personal responsibility to do what I can. I think an statement like "Hobby Work" needs some sort of back up. What is it exactly, that you personally do, Androman, to make the world a better place? If the answer is 'nothing' then this appears to be "the pot calling the kettle black"

This would be a good question on anther thread. I have not been offering solutions. I originally took exception to the interjection of one of the dread, Right Wing Bullshit phrases, "There's no such thing as a free lunch! what a brutal stifler of debate and wild conjecture that was meant to be. Forteanism demands free lunches and insists that they exist!

What I do in my private life not really relevant. However, I have had enough jobs, both paid and voluntary to be able to tell when a job is work as work and work as therapy. I was not offering airy solutions, or rhetoric, either. I was quite purposely being as pessimistic as possible. If musing on the possiblity of a world where my lunch does not have to be stolen out of someone else's mouth, is rank "arsey faddle" idealism, then the world really is in as bad a way as I think.

Androman, I really do feel strongly about people who talk about how to fix the world and never actually do anything. If you are one of those people then perhaps you should feel insulted, and if not, then why in the world would you take my remarks personally? If the shoe fits, wear it. But if it doesn't fit, then why go to such lengths to comment on it being an ugly shoe?

Yes, there are horrible problems in this world. Yes, many or most of them are not fixable, on the level that you and I can influence or effect. But some can. And when it's pollution, or the environment, then one person at a time, the world can get changed. One person taking action. Not one person talking.

I was not talking at all, nor was I was offering airey fairey solutions. Perhaps you mistook me for someone else?

James Veldon's original question a good one and it's given me considerable pause for thought. The ramifications of overpopulation extend way beyond Africa and the Middle and Far East. It's the sheer weight of numbers and the frequency of disasters, natural, or manmade, that pull me up short and leave me numb. Before you can offer solutions to a problem, first you have to know what the problem really is and I'm still thinking that one over. I don't even know if there can be a solution. I'm fed up with can do optimism I need to have a good look into the abyss, occasionally, even if it hurts.

Pessimism is an important Scottish cultural trait.

 

[Anonymous]

Any moaning I hear about overpopulation is about Africa

Africa seems to bear the brunt of most ( not all ) of the famine problems, my own beliefs say that a lot of this could/should be helped by the rulers in power of these countries. They've usually been ripped apart by civil wars or corruption or both, as an elightened country we SOMETIMES try to do what we can to help, but until it gets to starvation stage the world at large takes the view of "it's their own fault, coz they won't stop rutting! "
China took a very contraversial step IMHO of offering various incentives and threats in equal measure to the populus for only having 1 child per family some yaers ago. But then they do have the largest single country population on the planet. **

Nature has its own ways of "thinning things out " but we ( humankind) fight back with technology,and continue to grow until we consume all the resources until they are gone. No wonder were looking to space to help out, there's more planets to plunder out there.


**( rumour has it if they all jumped up & down at once they'd knock us out of orbit round the sun)

 

[Anonymous]

Nobody seems to be using Mars at the mo...we could nick it. I've looked about and seen some very interesting ideas put forward for immediate and massive colonisation...

 

[Anonymous]

**( rumour has it if they all jumped up & down at once they'd knock us out of orbit round the sun)

Don't know if this has been discussed before, but even if they all jumped at once, they would 'only' produce the equivalent of 500 Tonnes of TNT.
a remarkable amount, to be honest, but not enough to knock the Earth off it's hinges.

 

[Anonymous]

Ah but if everyone was standing on the Isle of Wight at the time, would it sink?

 

[Jerry_B]

Famines tend to arise from factors other than overpopulation. It's more to do with chronic neglect or mismangement of what is needed to feed any given population at any one time. Or, there may be other societal factors interfering in the processes that are needed in oder to sustain that population. Africa as a whole isn't overpopulated, but in a cumlative way many nations within Africa suffer from one or more of the aforementioned problems. The reasons for these problems arising are many and varied - from factors on both the inside and outside. China, on the other hand, has a large population but for most of the time it has the necessary infrastructure to support itself.

WRT to resources, remember that we in the West or in the 'developed world' consume far more per head of capita than is ordinarily necessary.

 

[Anonymous]

....new technologies like Dean Kamen's Segway scooter, when new cities are planned around it, ......

Try telling that to the London Cycling Campaign!

 

[Anonymous]

Try telling that to the London Cycling Campaign!

I don't live in the UK. Could you explain what you mean by your reference?