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A Philosophical Questionable Question - To Question?

Sid

Justified & Ancient
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Nov 19, 2018
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What came first - the Chicken, or the Egg?


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I would suggest that the Chicken arrived before the Egg.
Why? Because it takes a Chicken to produce the Egg in the first place.


So, to take that a little bit further, you could also say... “Which came first - Men and Women, or a Man, and a Woman?" A tricky and equally puzzling question. But of course, it takes the female of the species to produce the Egg for either the Man or the Woman.

I’m deducing that both with a Chicken, and with Humans, the ‘Female’ may well have existed first.

It seems as if females in the majority of most, 'but not all' forms of life might have been self reproducing. (as there are specie that are able to self-reproduce without the need of a male)

I’m deducing that both with the Chicken, and with Humans, the ‘Female’ may well have existed first.

Should my thoughts have any real meaning, then there must have been a certain point in time when it became a necessary factor for 'nature' to bring about these changes in reproduction, and 'males' became an essential factor for most forms of life to make further advancements in the survival of that specie?
 
Ah you want to check out life beyond the vertebrates :) Things have been reproducing for a long time before separate males and females, that's just one sort of strategy. Its all about swapping information so you can get a mix in the future. so when the environment changes, some of the offspring have the characteristics to deal with it and survive. You're right, if you're just reproducing asexually, then you're cloning yourself and sometimes that's a dead end. So swapping dna is the way forward.
Other life has some really alien-to-us ways of doing things.
 
The egg (though one that would not have closely resembled a modern chicken's egg) came first.

It was laid by a chicken-like creature that would give birth to offspring sufficiently dissimilar from itself to enable us to retrospectively judge it the first of a new kind.
 
Basically, nobody knows.

It's that simple.
 
The egg (though one that would not have closely resembled a modern chicken's egg) came first.

It was laid by a chicken-like creature that would give birth to offspring sufficiently dissimilar from itself to enable us to retrospectively judge it the first of a new kind.

This is the correct answer if the question relates to eggs in general and not specifically to farmyard poultry.
 
Problem comes when one starts to try and fit all this into Darwinism.

If you follow it all the way back, then either every thing came from a single accidental division of one single nucleus of unknown provenance, or there were multiple 'firsts'.
 
If you follow it all the way back, then either every thing came from a single accidental division of one single nucleus of unknown provenance, or there were multiple 'firsts'
Probably multiple firsts, for example eyes have evolved independently more than once (e.g. octopus eyes are unrelated to human eyes)
 
This would seem logical.

But it would also mean that Darwin was, to be polite, 'incomplete'.

And multiple firsts would open up a whole new can of worms.
 
Problem comes when one starts to try and fit all this into Darwinism.
If you follow it all the way back, then either every thing came from a single accidental division of one single nucleus of unknown provenance, or there were multiple 'firsts'.

This would seem logical.
But it would also mean that Darwin was, to be polite, 'incomplete'.
And multiple firsts would open up a whole new can of worms.

No - not at all. Darwin's original work was focused on speciation (hence the title of his landmark book) - i.e., the ongoing differentiation of organisms into separate types and lineages. He was addressing the manner in which life already in existence proliferated, not the ultimate origin of any / all life on earth (which wouldn't become a scientifically tractable subject of research until the following century).

Darwin's basic account of speciation via innovative incremental changes and natural selection neither presumes, nor is dependent upon, life having originated at one time in one place. In other words, Darwin's model doesn't entail any notion there had to have been an "Organism Zero."
 
The chicken or egg question is partly just a semantic exercise, but also strays into the territory of evolution and touches on the sorites paradox (also sometimes called "the argument of the beard".)

Semantics: first, phrase the question carefully.

What came first, the egg or the chicken? The egg existed long before the chicken, because many species, including species of bird, produced eggs before there were any chickens.

What came first, the chicken or the egg? Putting it this way round implies that "egg" refers specifically to a chicken's egg. It is therefore more of a "paradox" at first sight, because a chicken must come from an egg that must have been laid by a chicken, which... etc.


However, evolutionary theory tells us that species develop by a series of small changes, the disadvantageous examples of which are selected out by the environment, leaving the advantageous ones to be passed on to the next generation. It is a "numbers game" that relies on probabilities. The most perfectly adapted specimen may nevertheless be killed by a predator before it has reproduced, and the most poorly developed runt may somehow survive to breed. However, across a large population, the species will develop by a series of tiny changes which improve the species' suitability for the environment. This process is then modified and hastened by human agency with selective breeding of livestock.

It is this selective breeding that led to the species that we now call "chickens". Pick any definition of a "chicken" (in terms of genetics, size, weight, colour, behaviour, etc.) and there must necessarily have been a first specimen that completely matched the definition you ahve chosen, although no one knew that at the time.

So there was a first "chicken" according to whatever working definition you choose, and that chicken came from an egg that was laid by a very chicken-like bird, but not by a chicken. That first chicken egg was the result of the mating of a male and female that almost but not quite met the definition of chickens.

This will apply, regardless of how you define the species, chicken. There must have been a first one that met that definition, and its parents must just have fallen short of the definition.

In a sense, that is a semantic argument, but as I once said to a smart-arse customer, "Well, it all depends what you mean by semantics, sir." The argument does not depend on one particular definition of the word "chicken" rather than another, so it is not "just semantics".

Which is where the sorites paradox comes in. The sorites paradox is the paradox of the heap: how many grains of sand make a heap? (Or, the argument of the bard: how many whiskers make a beard?) We can all agree that if we dump a truckload of sand, that will make a heap of sand. We can all agree that a single grain of sand is not a heap.

So, if we look at the truckload of sand and remove one grain of sand, is it still a heap? Of course it is. And if we remove another grain? And another?

Or, if we have a single grain of sand and add another, do we have a heap of sand? Of course not. And if we add a third grain? Or a fourth?

And yet somewhere between the truckload of sand and the single grain, there is a point where we would say, "That is a heap of sand." And yet, would removing one grain from the hep really stop it from being a heap?

Point is, we can all tell the difference between something that is clearly a heap an something that is clearly not a heap, but that does not mean that there is a clear point at which the distinction is made. In the worlds of science, the law, or commerce, this situation is dealt with by arbitrary definitions and limits. That is why we have a 30 mph limit in built up areas, even though a car going at 30.01 mph would not present a greater hazard. That is why we have an age of consent, although few people would argue that a person suddenly and automatically develops a new confidence and understanding of sexual relationships on their 16th birthday.

So, back to the chicken, whatever definition we choose is necessarily arbitrary. Indeed, in cases where birds or animals are bred for show, the governing bodies produce strict definitions of each breed, which are then applied to the specimens that are entered into shows and competitions.

So, is it really the case that there was one specific specimen that was the first one to meet the definition of chicken? Furthermore, was that particular one a blind alley? Did it die before it passed on its genes? What did it mate with — an "almost a chicken"? Was another "first chicken" born somewhere else, just as various pieces of technology were invented independently at different times, in different places? Almost certainly.

EnolaGaia made a valid point: <<Darwin's model doesn't entail any notion there had to have been an "Organism Zero.">> Similarly, there doesn't have to have been a single "chicken zero". Examples may have been born and died without breeding, or may have bred with not-quite-chickens, to create young that were not-quite-chickens. Two full-chickens may have produced a brood of full chickens which all died without breeding.

However, still think that whichever we count as the first "chicken" rather than the first "chicken-like bird" must have come from the first chicken egg.

Incidentally, back to EnolaGaia's point, I heard Prof. Brian Cox commit a grave error on a recent TV show, saying that the fusion of two types of primitive cell was so unlikely that it can only have happened once, and that all higher lifeforms descended from that single common ancestor. Nonsense! There were billions upon billions of primitive organisms, and when there are many billions, even something that is a one in a billion chance is likely to happen more than once.
 
Prof. Brian Cox is a fine Physicist but his grasp of evolutionary Biology sometimes seems limited to whatever is written on the Autocue.
As to the Chicken and egg - I assume everyone realises that a female chicken produces eggs without the need of a Cock (same goes for Human females, pun intended) but for the egg to hatch into another chicken it needs to have been fertilised. So the question should be: what came first - the chicken and the cock, or the Egg ?
 
Prof. Brian Cox is a fine Physicist but his grasp of evolutionary Biology sometimes seems limited to whatever is written on the Autocue.
As to the Chicken and egg - I assume everyone realises that a female chicken produces eggs without the need of a Cock (same goes for Human females, pun intended) but for the egg to hatch into another chicken it needs to have been fertilised. So the question should be: what came first - the chicken and the cock, or the Egg ?
The egg doesn't have to be fertilised. There have been examples of eggs hatching without fertilisation. The offspring is always female.
 
The thread title said Chicken.
That kinda makes it a bit narrow, really. I was extending it out to all kinds of creatures.
I guess if we're only talking about chickens, a chicken would have come into existence first (it being the evolved offspring of other, earlier creatures that weren't quite chickens themselves).
 
Extend this out a bit further.

And let's assume that Darwin was right and we did come from apes.

A couple of things come to mind. why didn't all apes progress to humans ? And how did the change occur.

If we assume it was a genetic change in apes that caused it, then it would appear to have happened in very many apes at the same time. Again, so why not all of them.

If it began with a genetic change to one single ape then it would, one would think, take a very long time for the change to peculate down the generations due to the breeding from this one ape.

This seems a bit unlikely.

Imagine that our ape wakes up one morning and finds it can speak Spanish. I suppose our ape is now some kind of proto-human. An ape that is no longed an ape, but not yet human.

Anyway, this ape has a problem: no other ape can speak Spanish. In fact no other ape has the genetic change that would even allow them to speak Spanish.

So where is the missing link ?

INT21.
 
I'm not saying it was aliens, but...
 
You've been watching 2001 again, haven't you ?
 
Well, Zarathustra did speak, you know... :)
 
Extend this out a bit further.

And let's assume that Darwin was right and we did come from apes.

A couple of things come to mind. why didn't all apes progress to humans ? And how did the change occur.

If we assume it was a genetic change in apes that caused it, then it would appear to have happened in very many apes at the same time. Again, so why not all of them.

If it began with a genetic change to one single ape then it would, one would think, take a very long time for the change to peculate down the generations due to the breeding from this one ape.

This seems a bit unlikely.

Imagine that our ape wakes up one morning and finds it can speak Spanish. I suppose our ape is now some kind of proto-human. An ape that is no longed an ape, but not yet human.

Anyway, this ape has a problem: no other ape can speak Spanish. In fact no other ape has the genetic change that would even allow them to speak Spanish.

So where is the missing link ?

INT21.

I assumed that what was generally thought to have been a possibility, is that one kind of ape from one part of a continent on their explorations further north happened to meet up with a different kind of ape, and this is what brought about the genetic 'intelligence' leap in the specie? But I could certainly be wrong in my assumptions!
 
Sid,

Possibly.

However I don't think the interbreeding of one non human of the same specie with another from a distant place would produce a change in genetic make up that results in an intelligent offspring.

Certainly doesn't seem to work around here. when a pair of thicko chav types breed, the offspring is invariably thick.

INT21.
 
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I would suggest Almost Like A Whale by Steve Jones as a good introduction to evolution.
 
Sid,

Possibly.

However I don't think the interbreeding of one non human of the same specie with another from a distant place would produce a change in genetic make up that results in an intelligent offspring.

Certainly doesn't seem to work around here. when a pair of thicko chav types breed, the offspring is invariably thick.

INT21.
"Like it!"
 
Followed up by "I can't believe it's not whale" and "Other whale substitutes are available"
 
On things genetic.

There is a rampant shrub in the town centre (I think it is a Budleia, not sure) that flowers profusely every year. Purple fronds.
Except for a single white frond.

This white one appears on the same place on the shrub every year. There is never more than one. And I am assuming that it is some genetic glitch in the plant, it does not appear to be spreading so as to create other white flowers.
 
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