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Reverse-Fermi Paradox (Aliens Here: Why Not Revealed (Them) or Disclosed (Us)?)

Aether Blue said:
But VAST amounts of suffering could be alleviated with only two technologies:

1) clean, plentiful energy;

and

2) efficient water purification.

Arguably, an advanced civilization might not want to share advanced energy technologies on the grounds that they could be repurposed to make weapons. The same can hardly be said about water purification.
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What if their method of energy production and or water purification is clean and efficient... for them, but highly toxic for humans? For example waste products that are not harmful to them but are for humans.
 
I keep toying with the idea that there's a reason why so many powerful people want to move us towards a New World Order, unified under a 'One World Government'. It might be what *they* have demanded of us. The aliens may have stated that they'll only open up a proper dialogue with us if we do this, because it will be a sign that we have reached a certain level of civilisation. While we are still in a non-unified state, they don't want to know. It might be because they are 'hive-minded' and 'non-individualistic' in their thinking.
 
kamalktk said:
What if their method of energy production and or water purification is clean and efficient... for them, but highly toxic for humans? For example waste products that are not harmful to them but are for humans.
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This would suggest that the aliens are not truly part of an advanced civilisation, but they are instead pretty dumb. They have a small but limited range of advanced technologies, good enough to get them here, but not adaptable enough to be useful to human society. They can't give us unlimited energy, clean water, cure our pandemics, or give us long life.

I've suggested this idea before on this forum; the aliens are stupid - they are post-intelligent, they rely on the (presumably limited) AI in their spaceships to keep them alive, but they can't make any useful decisions (like initiating contact), they don't know how to turn the lights off on the outside of their ships ( which means they are visible at night), and they can't help crashing their ships in places like Siberia and New Mexico.

It's not really worth trying to make contact with post-intelligent aliens - they evolved into the Idiocracy stage long ago.
 
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Mythopoeika said:
I keep toying with the idea that there's a reason why so many powerful people want to move us towards a New World Order, unified under a 'One World Government'. It might be what *they* have demanded of us. The aliens may have stated that they'll only open up a proper dialogue with us if we do this, because it will be a sign that we have reached a certain level of civilisation. While we are still in a non-unified state, they don't want to know. It might be because they are 'hive-minded' and 'non-individualistic' in their thinking.
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Are you serious?
 
eburacum said:
This would suggest that the aliens are not truly part of an advanced civilisation, but they are intead pretty dumb. They have a small but limited range of advanced technologies, good enough to get them here, but not adaptable enough to be useful to human society. They can't give us limited energy, clean water, cure our pandemics, or give us long life.

I've suggested this idea before on this forum; the aliens are stupid - they are post-intelligent, they rely on the (presumably limited) AI in their spaceships to keep them alive, but they can't make any useful decisions (like initiating contact), they don't know how to turn the lights off on the outside of their ships ( which means they are visible at night), and they can't help crashing their ships in places like Siberia and New Mexico.

It's not really worth trying to make contact with post-intelligent aliens - they evolved into the Idiocracy stage long ago.
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That's an interesting idea! :)
 
Thats an interesting idea. They might not have anything we can use that would make any difference.

But we might, at the very least, like to hear their stories.
 
Kondoru said:
But we might, at the very least, like to hear their stories.
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But they might be absolute crashing bores!
"I went to a party last night....got stuck in a corner by an alien telling me about how long it took them to get here, which way they came, and the traffic on the gyratory system...."
 
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eburacum said:
... It's not really worth trying to make contact with post-intelligent aliens - they evolved into the Idiocracy stage long ago.
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The grand irony in this scenario lies in the fact their post-intelligence would seem to mirror the outcome toward which we terrestrials are "advancing", meaning there's a specifiable common ground our species share and could conceivably exploit as a basis for constructive engagement.
 
Hmmm.. Seems pretty clear what is going on.
1. The devices have been here for a long time, observing. At this point, they would know about each of us individually, easily mapping things over time, predicting our actions with uncanny accuracy and avoiding detection whenever necessary.
2. In the past they didn't build monumental architecture for us or give us any technologies. We may not even know what is of particular interest about us for the phenomenon. Imagine a very advanced sentient drone, an observation and communication device; not the Star Trek ideas of folks like deGrasse Tyson who wants to have dinner with an alien. Many scientists assume aliens would arrive with great fanfare in a great ship with light sails! Not.
3. It seems the interest the phenomenon has in us is pure curiosity; we may be the only advanced biological life they have encountered or know how to get to.
4. There are waves of UFO visitations; these seem to occur during stages of technological development or upheaval, e.g. "airships" during industrialization, foo fighters etc. during wars.
5. Imagine you lived on a different plane of information universe and could see the connections between events and objects far beyond what puny humans are capable of; like the scientist looking down on the rats in the maze.
 
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EnolaGaia said:
The grand irony in this scenario lies in the fact their post-intelligence would seem to mirror the outcome toward which we terrestrials are "advancing", meaning there's a specifiable common ground our species share and could conceivably exploit as a basis for constructive engagement.
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I don't think there is --in any material way. Having been here for so long, just as observers. We couldn't deal with direct contact or even direct contact for an extended period, and would be destroyed. The method and level of contact we have now will continue indefinitely, unless we blow it and are on a path to total destruction --then perhaps there would be some intervention.
 
So, we have found an alien planet where there is one species that is slowly consuming and destroying the biosphere. The same critters are armed to the teeth with nasty firecrackers that could poison the immense variety of life to be found there. Let's call the planet "Dearth". We long ago ran across Dearth and our sentient probes have been cloaked around it for thousands of years, periodically surveilling it and watching the construction of the weapons. The whole place is a miserable hell --the creatures kill and consume each other and cause immense suffering each and every day. If we decided to introduce ourselves it would start a big war, and if it didn't, exposure to our being and way of operating in the universe would show them that they are living in a hell --that they are integrally part of. To change the hell is to kill the very demons that live there..
How would we go about observing and initiating some form of safe contact? Just like what is seen with UFOs, that's how.
 
We will always have the skeptics --and conspiracy theorists.. Because, it would take the kind of destructive contact mentioned above for them to come around. At least in the old articles there are a number of instances of skeptics getting reveals that completely change their minds. Thanks UFOs! More of them if possible, please. I have your backs. :)
 
I dont think knowing would make much difference.

the only language we have in common is mathmatics

And only certain people understand that
 
If they have been here observing for thousands of years, their inaction makes them morally responsible for the mess we are in. Billions of people have died in wars and diseases that they could have prevented, unless they literally lack the skill or technology to help us. Which makes them idiots.

This conumdrum only exists because the entire UFO phenomenon is a mirage. There will be no disclosure until we make contact with real aliens, not these phantoms and illusions.
 
eburacum said:
If they have been here observing for thousands of years, their inaction makes them morally responsible for the mess we are in. Billions of people have died in wars and diseases that they could have prevented, unless they literally lack the skill or technology to help us. Which makes them idiots.

This conumdrum only exists because the entire UFO phenomenon is a mirage. There will be no disclosure until we make contact with real aliens, not these phantoms and illusions.
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But I think you are anthropomorphizing them, they may not be nice or bad.. Or may have some imperative not to interact past a certain point, and the reason we can't have contact with something like this. I don't know.
 
feinman said:
Or may have some imperative not to interact past a certain point, and the reason we can't have contact with something like this.
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Like the prime directive in Star Trek.
 
It's possible that their actions have prevented our destruction in the past in some way we don't understand, or the stage is being set for it. I don't know. UFOs are pretty amazing.
 
eburacum said:
If they have been here observing for thousands of years, their inaction makes them morally responsible for the mess we are in. Billions of people have died in wars and diseases that they could have prevented, unless they literally lack the skill or technology to help us. Which makes them idiots.

This conumdrum only exists because the entire UFO phenomenon is a mirage. There will be no disclosure until we make contact with real aliens, not these phantoms and illusions.
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There may be only a few of them here, with limited resources. So, probably not equipped to help us.
 
Kondoru said:
I dont think knowing would make much difference.

the only language we have in common is mathmatics

And only certain people understand that
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Well we do have a lot of "knowing" --if you look at sightings and experiences over time on a globe, it would look like a pretty thick forest.
 
feinman said:
Maybe. And these device aren't the aliens themselves --they are apparently designed to get here and observe, with some interaction; they are tools.
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Yes, the little green/grey aliens may be artificial. Most of the contactee reports/sightings seem to indicate this.
 
feinman said:
https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2018...ect-societies-to-stop-them-from-going-extinct
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index.php

1871
 
eburacum said:
And yet there is no evidence that this technology has ever been used by humans. Everything used in warfare up to this point has been developed by humanity with no help from aliens.
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The above quote is taken out of context.

It starts with "IF....."

I did not say that it has.
I merely speculated.
I do not know one way or the other.

eburacum said:
I've suggested this idea before on this forum; the aliens are stupid - they are post-intelligent, they rely on the (presumably limited) AI in their spaceships to keep them alive, but they can't make any useful decisions (like initiating contact),
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If they exist, and if they visit us, then this idea is interesting, but debatable.
What if they ones sent to visit us are like explorers, able to steer a ship, and repair the equivalent of a flat tyre, but not build the ship itself?
That the engineers and builders and mechanics are back on the home planets?
And there is perhaps, an interstellar equivalent of the AA and RAC?
But on occasion, there are long wait times for a repair patrol?
 
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So how do people think they are crossing the huge gap between their point of origin and our solar system?

The only way I see it if Aliens exist is they are a lot closer or they are crossing over the multiverse.
 
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