• We have updated the guidelines regarding posting political content: please see the stickied thread on Website Issues.

The 15-Minute City Conspiracy

Analogue Boy said:
In two words, Mission Creep. Here’s how Oxford are looking at the situation…


So you see that control of the population and restriction of movement is potentially already factored into the plans of a Zone system. Look at the measures that were implemented in London during lockdown. Large barricades erected overnight blocking whole streets and causing all sorts of traffic issues despite the protests of residents. If the question is ‘Do you want everything you need right next to your house?’, then the answer is usually going to be yes. If the question is, ‘Do you want to be fined everytime you get in your car and leave your zone?’, I think the answer would be different.
Besides, there’s the usual question of who pays. Are you prepared to see a massive increase in your council tax bill to fund all of this? How many shops and services do you think would be prepared to set up at scale within a tiny catchment area?
Look how many bank branches are closing and I’d say that’s a pretty important service being denied to a lot of vulnerable people.

Of course this is all dystopian conspiratorial nonsense. Local goverment is hugely financially reliable. Absolutely none of them are under special measures. And our trustworthy heads are always available to be held accountable when things go wrong. The problem is they just care too much.
Click to expand...

Here's the page:

https://www.oxford.gov.uk/news/arti...ford_city_council_on_oxford_s_traffic_filters

Note:

a) They have updated the page since I last quoted it to reflect that they've received "abuse" regarding the scheme. To this I reply, "Excellent!"

b) Note their use of the innocuous word "filters" to describe their scheme, and their stress on the (current) thinking that there won't be "physical barriers":

"They are simply traffic cameras that can read number plates.

If a vehicle passes through the filter at certain times of the day, the camera will read the number plate and (if you do not have an exemption or a residents’ permit) you will receive a fine in the post.

Oxford residents (and residents of some surrounding villages) will be able to apply for a permit to drive through the filters on up to 100 days a year. Residents living in the rest of Oxfordshire will be able to apply for a permit to drive through the filter on up to 25 days a year."

How. Fucking. Dare. They?

maximus otter
 
maximus otter said:
HMP Dartmoor has a shop, a gym, a medical centre and a “restaurant”, all within 15 minutes on foot.

It’s not the “having everything within 15 minutes” part that’s the issue.

maximus otter
Click to expand...
Yes, it's the 'not being able to leave' bit that is most of concern.
 
maximus otter said:
Oxford residents (and residents of some surrounding villages) will be able to apply for a permit to drive through the filters on up to 100 days a year. Residents living in the rest of Oxfordshire will be able to apply for a permit to drive through the filter on up to 25 days a year."
Click to expand...
This is essentially treating hard-working businesses and commuters like a cash cow.
None of this idiocy is there to improve the environment.
 
Swifty said:
I've been living like that for nearly 20 years and I love it. I can jump on a train if I feel like doing something more. The past way of living is the future.
Click to expand...
That may be fine for you personally, Swifty - but other people may have other needs. Their job may be a long distance away and may not be accessible through public transport. Tradesmen, such as plumbers and electricians, have a need to drive a van anywhere they want - without hindrance. Doctors and other community medical staff may need to drive to visit people at home. Businesses need to operate...
For you, most of the places where you work are local and you can get there by walking. Not everybody can do this!
 
Mythopoeika said:
That may be fine for you personally, Swifty - but other people may have other needs. Their job may be a long distance away and may not be accessible through public transport. Tradesmen, such as plumbers and electricians, have a need to drive a van anywhere they want - without hindrance. Doctors and other community medical staff may need to drive to visit people at home. Businesses need to operate...
For you, most of the places where you work are local and you can get there by walking. Not everybody can do this!
Click to expand...
I'm clearly a Hobbit then Mytho. Or in my own version of The Truman Show. I've got zero interest in travelling and I still manage to wear out shoes at an alarming rate. I suppose the fact that I haven't got any kids gives me that luxury to be fair. I'm all for living in a dome. I can see that being more than a bit sinister for people who do want to move around a lot though. I prefer to stay in one place and study the **** out of it instead. Too many people take where they live for granted.
 
Last edited:
This is also part of the joint Oxford City Council and Oxfordshire County Council statement referred to above:

"Residents will still be able to drive to every part of the city at any time – but in the future, during certain times of the day, you may need to take a different route (e.g. using the ring road) if you want to travel by car.

The reason we have proposed these changes is because – as everyone who lives and visits Oxford knows – the city has had awful congestion for decades. This is damaging both our economy and our environment, and is making the bus network unviable."

There is still very much debate on whether this is the way forward, but hardly as dystopian as claimed above.
 
People often assume the stated intent of an authority legislating is a lie - "No, this is what you really want to do!" E.G. Tighter gun control = gub'mint taking guns away and banning private ownership.
Sure, there is mission creep - we can see this every day in proposed legislation in the government - but you can take ANY proposal and take it in absurdum.
It's a huge step from making communities, with most facilities, within walking distance in existing cities to towering prisons that (somehow) benefit a non-existent (at the moment) Authoritarian regime.
 
Mythopoeika said:
Yes, it's the 'not being able to leave' bit that is most of concern.
Click to expand...
But no-one is going stop you leaving - why would they? To what end?

Two possibilities come to mind with the ‘stop you leaving’ scenario - a virulent pandemic or a military coup. Both of these would be likely to be temporary & nothing to do with 15 minute cities.

Road charging is a different matter & likely the way things are going in order to raise funds for government/councils. Eventually everyone will be charged per mile or zone. Not that I’m in favour of this, just my assumption.

London has a charging zone, other cities too with more guaranteed to follow, but again they’re nothing to do with the 15 minute city idea.
 
Making travel by car more and more difficult and making public transport expensive, especially by train, will have an effect of helping confine people to their local area more likely. Add to that the idea of of 15 minute cities being touted more and more world wide, to me, it's like a slow creep towards an objective which is not being spoken about openly.
 
Swifty said:
London makes the rest of us laugh. They're absolutely convinced they're 'England' ..
Click to expand...
The biggest and densest population lives in London and the SE. Fact.

I know someone who ended up sacked from his employers caused by ULEZ. A 45 minute drive turned into a 2 to 3 hour public transport nightmare and he was constantly late. He didn't earn enough to pay the ULEZ charge.
 
Swifty said:
Fair enough but there's way more people in the UK combined who don't live in London.
Click to expand...
True, and I wish there was way more than that. Where I live is over populated and growing all the time. The incredible amount of blocks of flats being built on any and every available bit of land is mind boggling. I sometimes wonder if all the building work has something to do with 15 minute cities.
 
kesavaross said:
True, and I wish there was way more than that. Where I live is over populated and growing all the time. The incredible amount of blocks of flats being built on any and every available bit of land is mind boggling. I sometimes wonder if all the building work has something to do with 15 minute cities.
Click to expand...
Move to where I live mate!. It's Jerry Springer on a surfboard!. Using car indicators is almost non existent. Londoners have been trying to change the place since Victorian times and they all fail, it's hilarious. Everyone knows everyone else's business if you want them to or not. You can't fart without them talking about it five minutes later in the next town but they'll also pool together to help if you have any problems.
 
kesavaross said:
The biggest and densest population lives in London and the SE. Fact.

I know someone who ended up sacked from his employers caused by ULEZ. A 45 minute drive turned into a 2 to 3 hour public transport nightmare and he was constantly late. He didn't earn enough to pay the ULEZ charge.
Click to expand...

I've just returned from a works trip to Newcastle, where their council has also introduced a clean air zone (CAZ) covering the city centre.
It only applies to non-compliant buses, coaches, HGVs, taxis, minibuses and light goods vehicles though, so those canny Novocastrians have decided not to clobber the private motorist, as places like London and Oxford have done.
Hats off to Newcastle for their superb Metro system BTW!
 
blessmycottonsocks said:
I've just returned from a works trip to Newcastle, where their council has also introduced a clean air zone (CAZ) covering the city centre.
It only applies to non-compliant buses, coaches, HGVs, taxis, minibuses and light goods vehicles though, so those canny Novocastrians have decided not to clobber the private motorist, as places like London and Oxford have done.
Hats off to Newcastle for their superb Metro system BTW!
Click to expand...
The council here keeps talking about an ultra low emission zone (ULEZ) which will affect me as I drive a 10 year old Transit. That will be yet another nail in the coffin of my business. I've just paid a ludicrous amount of money for a traders parking permit just because my van is high emissions and there are plans to increase street and off street parking charges based on emissions which will cost me even more money.

During covid the council removed a lot of loading bays and parking spaces claiming it will allow people to shop and socially distance at the same time promising to reinstate them after the pandemic. That never happened.

I cannot afford £34 000 for a new low emissions van. A big part of the problem of pollution in town is the stupid traffic schemes that to me are designed to cause traffic jams which are then cited as a reason to introduce traffic reduction schemes which always involve Joe Public paying out money.

All the above is having a big effect on trade and commerce in town and is making life increasingly difficult for businesses. What ever the answer is, it is not what the proposed solutions are.
 
I think this article might be of relevance to the discussion here.

In a lab in Manchester, volunteers are donning masks to breathe in lungfuls of polluted air.

They're being exposed to different kinds of fumes, from diesel to cleaning products, in a bid to understand how pollution impacts the brain.
Scientists are analysing blood samples and the results of cognitive tests taken before and after exposure. While it's well known that air quality affects the lungs and cardiovascular system, the brain is less studied.

Dr Ian Mudway, an environmental toxicologist from Imperial College London, is one of the scientists leading the study.

"Over the last 10 years, we have begun to see statistical associations between air pollution and a whole range of brain-related issues - all the way from how children learn, the way in which their cognition changes, to mental health and increased risks of dementia. What we're trying to do in this study is to actually do experiments to understand why there's an association, to find out what the underlying biological mechanisms are that link air pollution to adverse effects on the human brain."

https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-67031322
 
kesavaross said:
The biggest and densest population lives in London and the SE. Fact.

I know someone who ended up sacked from his employers caused by ULEZ. A 45 minute drive turned into a 2 to 3 hour public transport nightmare and he was constantly late. He didn't earn enough to pay the ULEZ charge.
Click to expand...
Some years back, I worked for about 10 months at a job in Wembley. I tried using the train initially, but it was a commute of 2 hours each way, cost me a ton of money, and I still had to pay for parking at my local station. So I started driving in, which was a journey of just over an hour each way. Parking was still a pain, but it didn't cost me anything. A combination of factors led to me leaving that job - they simply weren't paying me enough for all the hassle.
Now with ULEZ, I wouldn't consider doing that job in the first place.
They are essentially forcing talented, skilled professionals to look elsewhere outside London for a job.
 
ramonmercado said:
Dr Ian Mudway, an environmental toxicologist from Imperial College London, is one of the scientists leading the study.
Click to expand...

Not quite good enough to go in the Nominative determinism thread, but that does strike me as a damn fine name for an environmental toxicologist!
I imagine him, in his leisure time, doing something like this:

mud.png
 
kesavaross said:
True, and I wish there was way more than that. Where I live is over populated and growing all the time. The incredible amount of blocks of flats being built on any and every available bit of land is mind boggling. I sometimes wonder if all the building work has something to do with 15 minute cities.
Click to expand...
I doubt it - more like the big builders/developers making loadsa money, what with the price of flats/houses.

The 15 minute city pipe dream as I understand it is about having ‘communities’ with enough local services/amenities - doctor, schools, supermarket, cinema, nail bar, betting shop, tattoo parlour, charity shop, greasy spoon etc within walking distance so you don’t have to drive miles to get a fried breakfast.

I don’t think the average development gives much thought to this, or of traffic implications & knock on effects of all the extra cars.
 
Swifty said:
I'm all for living in a dome. I can see that being more than a bit sinister for people who do want to move around a lot though. I prefer to stay in one place and study the **** out of it instead. Too many people take where they live for granted.
Click to expand...
Quick Swifty! Put your name down to be one of the first colonists on Mars.
You and your fellow pioneers will be living in domes in something like 5 minute cities.

mars.png
 
The problem being ... ?
T'missus and I talked about this: if given the opportunity, would I 'sign up' to colonise Mars?
Apart from the financial constraints - it'll only be open to those who can pay - and the sheer physical expectations - which I'm long past - yes! Yes, I would!
 
blessmycottonsocks said:
Quick Swifty! Put your name down to be one of the first colonists on Mars.
You and your fellow pioneers will be living in domes in something like 5 minute cities.

View attachment 72305
Click to expand...
Not really. Unless we're only focusing on the word 'dome' and I wouldn't want to live in current Earth's Centre Parks unless I had to. Also Mars won't be a city unless this experiment is super successful which I'd guesstimate at only maybe happening in a few decades time at best. Like Total Recall with Arnold Schwarzenegger and that alien with three tits?.
 
Floyd1 said:
Quite a few places have trialled and/or discussed it apparently.
Bertrand Russell was a proponent as well.
Click to expand...
Not to mention Milton Friedman and Richard Nixon.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_basic_income#History
Milton Friedman proposed the idea of a negative income tax (NIT), which effectively sanctioned a basic income for all, in his book Capitalism and Freedom published in 1962.[21] In his 1964 State of the Union address, U.S. President Lyndon B. Johnson introduced legislation to fight the "war on poverty". Johnson believed in expanding the federal government's roles in education and health care as poverty reduction strategies. In this political climate, the idea of a guaranteed income for every American also took root. Notably, a document, signed by 1200 economists, called for a guaranteed income for every American. Six ambitious basic income experiments started up on the related concept of negative income tax. Succeeding President Richard Nixon explained its purpose as "to provide both a safety net for the poor and a financial incentive for welfare recipients to work."[26] Congress eventually approved a guaranteed minimum income for the elderly and the disabled.[26]
Click to expand...

With increasing automation most types of jobs won't need human workers any more, so there would be no wages. I expect there would still be a wide range of occupations - making artisan bread, beer, handmade clothes, toys, amateur dramatics, things that are now currently hobbies will become respected activities. Perhaps some sort of money will change hands; people might accumulate scrip, or likes, or social credit if they make good wine, or cupcakes, or shoes. The stuff people will value will be stuff people have made themselves - but sometimes the automated products would be better quality, or more nutritious, and essentially free. The most respected individuals would be those with high social credit scores.

Heinlein realised this back in the fifties - in a fully-automated post-scarcity future, most human-made products would be pretty crude when compared to machine-made, manufactured goods - but these hand-made, artisan products would be far more valued by consumers.
 
The artisan thing is where I figured where we heading 20 years ago but that never happened. People still love mass-produced tat.

A number of countries are trying to cut down on car use without offering alternatives. I would say the same will happen with 15-minute zones, you get the stick but not the carrot.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top