Scientists Present Evidence That Revolutionary War Hero Was Female

[maximus otter]

Scientific researchers are arguing that examination of skeletal remains and DNA testing has found that a Revolutionary war hero dubbed 'the father of the American cavalry' was in fact biologically female.

Researchers from Georgia Southern University say they made the discovery about General Casimir Pulaski after years of research examining the general's remains.

The documentary suggests that Pulaski had an intersex condition known as congenital adrenal hyperplasia.

The condition results in genetic females producing excessive amounts of male steroid hormones that can lead to abnormal sexual development and make genitals appear more masculine.

In addition to [a] female-looking pelvis, researchers say the skeletal remains also had a more female facial structure and jaw.

Backing up their claims, researchers said extensive DNA testing provided a match between the remains and Pulaski's grand-niece.

They also said the skeleton showed evidence of horseback riding, that he was of a similar height and had a battle wound injury that Pulaski suffered.

Source
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...hero-Casimir-Pulaski-biologically-female.html

maximus otter

 

[EnolaGaia]

There's a slight problem in all this ... There are conflicting stories about Pulaski's original interment - including claims that he was buried at sea from the American ship Wasp (where he'd been taken after falling, and where he died).

There were further controversies concerning the alleged Pulaski remains that were interred at his monument in Savannah decades later - the same remains analyzed recently. These remains had been buried at a nearby plantation, and it was never clearly established the plantation grave from which the monument's remains were taken was in fact Pulaski's.

 

[brownmane]

But the one statement refers to DNA of a known grand niece, so wouldn't that clear the question of identity?

 

[EnolaGaia]

But the one statement refers to DNA of a known grand niece, so wouldn't that clear the question of identity?

Maybe, maybe not ... An attempt to perform DNA analysis on the alleged Pulaski bones failed entirely. The first 2015 testing, using more advanced techniques, concluded the grand niece's DNA wasn't a match to the Savannah remains. A subsequent test using less-conclusive mitochondrial DNA is the first and only one to be construed as a match. In all cases there have been questions about contamination of the tested materials in addition to the overarching issue of the provenance for the alleged Pulaski remains.

 

[melon24]

It is becoming the norm for female soldiers to fight on the front lines. There is still some way to go before they are accepted as equals; there are reports of clothing and equipment being unsuitable, of sexual (power) abuse and still quite a prevalent attitude that they shouldn't be allowed to fight. I am sure that I have seen films where women have enlisted by pretending to be male, but have come across the following story which may show that a historically famous military man was actually a woman:

Polish general who fought with Washington may have been a woman

Researchers believe Casimir Pulaski’s skeleton indicates the 18th-century cavalry officer may have been female or intersex

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/apr/06/casimir-pulaski-polish-general-woman-intersex

I thought this story was interesting and couldn't find any similar thread. Anyone have any other similar stories?

(Edited as second story was from a satirical site).

 

[James_H]

Hi, there is a thread on this specific case, but I think a more general thread is worthwhile. Can include Anne Bonnie, Joan of Arc, etc.

Scientists Present Evidence That Revolutionary War Hero Was Female

 

[melon24]

Hi, there is a thread on this specific case, but I think a more general thread is worthwhile.

Oh sorry, I did a search using the name, but didn't come up with anything.

 

[Ogdred Weary]

Men make superior soldiers as they learn to aim doing wees as little boys. I am a Scientician.

 

[melon24]

If women were in charge of the army, you would be able to sit down while you're aiming!

 

[Ogdred Weary]

I sometimes do sitty-down wees, a change is as good as a rest.

 

[Bad Bungle]

Men make superior soldiers as they learn to aim doing wees as little boys. I am a Scientician.

I was always lead to believe that women make inefficient front line soldiers because of the protective instincts of their male comrades. If a female soldier gets wounded, two or even three male mates will hold back to look after her - thus one bullet has effectively neutralised four combatants.
Even the Israeli army only allows women as Tank commanders or Trainers, not front line, because of this.

 

[Ogdred Weary]

I was always lead to believe that women make inefficient front line soldiers because of the protective instincts of their male comrades. If a female soldier gets wounded, two or even three male mates will hold back to look after her - thus one bullet has effectively neutralised four combatants.
Even the Israeli army only allows women as Tank commanders or Trainers, not front line, because of this.

I've heard it argued on a number of levels that the main "issue" with female soldiers is the psychological affect on their male comrades, as well as the example you gave, many men - if they are out-competed by a women in a physical capacity will be so demoralised as to be useless. I'm not saying that's correct or that I agree, I've just heard psychologists argue it. My explanation is more objective anyway.

 

[melon24]

I was always lead to believe that women make inefficient front line soldiers because of the protective instincts of their male comrades.

I would have thought that was a spurious argument so as to justify women not being on the front line. Men have protective instincts, full stop, but military training modifies this instinct.

Anyway, before we get de-railed by who makes a better soldier (The Romans in Britain were surprised!), lets look at and see if there are successful female soldiers who were able to fight as successfully as their male counterparts, when not subjected to any pre-concieved ideas about whether they could or should.

 

[Mythopoeika]

Anyway, before we get de-railed by who makes a better soldier (The Romans in Britain were surprised!), lets look at and see if there are successful female soldiers who were able to fight as successfully as their male counterparts, when not subjected to any pre-concieved ideas about whether they could or should.

Shield-maidens?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shield-maiden

 

[Bad Bungle]

I would have thought that was a spurious argument so as to justify women not being on the front line. Men have protective instincts, full stop, but military training modifies this instinct.

Anyway, before we get de-railed by who makes a better soldier (The Romans in Britain were surprised!), lets look at and see if there are successful female soldiers who were able to fight as successfully as their male counterparts, when not subjected to any pre-concieved ideas about whether they could or should.

Fair enough, I wasn't seeking to de-rail the thread - my comments about front-line female combatants was in light of what I had read in the aftermath of the 6 Day War and the findings of the Israeli Army (who seemed to have more female soldiers than most) preparing against future attacks.

 

[melon24]

Fair enough, I wasn't seeking to de-rail the thread - my comments about front-line female combatants was in light of what I had read in the aftermath of the 6 Day War and the findings of the Israeli Army (who seemed to have more female soldiers than most) preparing against future attacks.

Sorry, came over all school-marmish there - not meant at all! Your comment actually highlights attitudes in the army which may explain why women would want to join the army as a male combatant though.

 

[Yithian]

Hi, there is a thread on this specific case, but I think a more general thread is worthwhile. Can include Anne Bonnie, Joan of Arc, etc.

Scientists Present Evidence That Revolutionary War Hero Was Female

Threads now merged.

Thread title will be amended if conversation widens.

 

[James_H]

花木蘭 (Hua Mulan, lit. 'magnolia flower', later to be a Disney Princess) was a legendary Chinese warrior who spent her career pretending to be a boy.

 

[Ogdred Weary]

I would have thought that was a spurious argument so as to justify women not being on the front line. Men have protective instincts, full stop, but military training modifies this instinct.

Anyway, before we get de-railed by who makes a better soldier (The Romans in Britain were surprised!), lets look at and see if there are successful female soldiers who were able to fight as successfully as their male counterparts, when not subjected to any pre-concieved ideas about whether they could or should.

Many, I'd imagine. I recall listening to an interview with Terry Pratchett talking about the wonderfully titled Monstrous Regiment where a woman disguises herself as a man in order to become a soldier. In researching this phenomenon he looked at records of soldiers outed as women thought History, apparently there are 600 known instances in the US Civil War alone, God knows how many slipped through. He also related an instance where a woman joined the British army and rose to be an officer, during which time she was court martialled and sentenced to be flogged with her top off, there were comments along the lines of "Well, he's got bug tits for a bloke" but she wasn't discovered until later.

 

[melon24]

there are 600 known instances in the US Civil War alone

Wow!

I found an old Daily Mail article here with pictures of some of the women who fought in the Civil War:

The women who fought as men: Rare American Civil War pictures show how females disguised themselves so they could go into battle

• Some enlisted alongside their husbands as they couldn't bear to be apart
• They often served with distinction fighting in dozens of battles
• One even chose to remain a man once the war had ended

To his comrades in the Union cavalry, Jack Williams was definitely one of the boys - a hard-drinking, tobacco-chewing, foul-mouthed son of a gun.
Outstanding on horseback, he was as deadly with a sword as he was around the poker table - just the sort of fella you would want by your side when the going got rough.
And for Jack it frequently did. By the end of a distinguished military career, he had fought in 18 battles, been wounded three times and taken prisoner once.

Union cavalryman Jack Williams (left) fought in 18 battles and was wounded three times and taken prisoner once. He was later revealed to be Frances Clalin a mother-of-three from Illinois
So it would come as quite a surprise when this prime example of a Union man was revealed to be a woman.
For Jack Williams was actually mother-of-three Frances Clalin - an Illinois-born farmer's wife who had enlisted alongside her husband back in 1861.

I also found a thread thread on 'The Ranker Forum' with info about various women through history, including Joanna, Countess of Flanders who fought in the 100 Years War; 'Joanna dressed as a man in uniform, collected 300 French soldiers, and went up against the military camp of Charles de Blois ... Joanna and her soldiers rampaged through the camp, burned supplies, and quickly rode away on horseback during this daring feat.

 

[melon24]

Scientific researchers are arguing that examination of skeletal remains and DNA testing has found that a Revolutionary war hero dubbed 'the father of the American cavalry' was in fact biologically female.

I think they need to amend her epithet to 'Mother of the American Cavalry' or at least 'Parent of the American Cavalry'. :wcry:

 

[Mythopoeika]

I think they need to amend her epithet to 'Mother of the American Cavalry' or at least 'Parent of the American Cavalry'. :wcry:

I like 'progenitor'.

 

[melon24]

Not in disguise, but my husband's Aunt was a Partisan in Yugoslavia, fighting the civil war in parallel with geurilla warfare against the Nazi invasion. She sported a huge scar down one side of her face from a Chetnik who attacked her from behind with a knife. She apparently got the better of him though, with her bare hands.

 

[Mythopoeika]

What a woman!

 

[melon24]

What a woman!

Yeah, especially when you realise she was only in her mid-to-late-teens when this happened.

 

[James_H]

The Chevalier d'Eon, a naturally androgynous woman who passed as a male soldier.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chevalier_d'Éon

 

[hunck]

The Chevalier d'Eon, a naturally androgynous woman who passed as a male soldier.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chevalier_d'Éon

What an extraordinary story. 'She' actually appears to be 'he'. The wiki article says

D'Éon appeared publicly as a man and pursued masculine occupations for 49 years, although during that time d'Éon successfully infiltrated the court of Empress Elizabeth of Russia by presenting as a woman.

For 33 years, from 1777, d'Éon dressed as a woman, identifying as female. Doctors who examined d'Éon's body after death discovered "male organs in every respect perfectly formed", but also feminine characteristics. A couple of characteristics described in the certificate were "unusual roundness in the formation of limbs," as well as "breast remarkably full". This information suggest D'Éon might have been intersex.

The Chevalier d'Éon claimed to have been assigned female at birth, and demanded recognition by the government as such. D'Éon claimed to have been raised as a boy because Louis d'Éon de Beaumont could only inherit from his in-laws if he had a son. King Louis XVI and his court complied with this demand, but required in turn that d'Éon dress appropriately in women's clothing.

 

[James_H]

What an extraordinary story. 'She' actually appears to be 'he'. The wiki article says

Ah so maybe s/he was intersex?

 

[Coal]

Ah so maybe s/he was intersex?

It sounds more akin to androgen insensitivity syndrome, where the spectrum is broad and one can have externalised male genitalia to a greater or lesser degree and some female secondary sex characteristics.

I've often thought those with this in years past must have often have had desperately miserable lives.

 

[GNC]

It sounds more akin to androgen insensitivity syndrome, where the spectrum is broad and one can have externalised male genitalia to a greater or lesser degree and some female secondary sex characteristics.

I've often thought those with this in years past must have often have had desperately miserable lives.

In ancient times, weren't oracles and the like sometimes hermaphrodites, and seen as a gift from the Gods?