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Cats & Dogs Living Together In Harmony

MrRING

Android Futureman
Joined
Aug 7, 2002
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By what process do domesticated animals of differenct species live together without killing one another? As a kid, our dog got along quite well with our cats, they would ever sleep on him when it was cold.

But I would think that, since they are different species, that the overriding programing they have would just be to kill each other, not live together. But, is it because under a human roof, the "humans" create the social standing? Or do the animals work out a peace & friendship amongst themselves, and are working from their own basic personalities (i.e. two easy-going animals don't have a problem living together, but two angry animals would be at each other's throat constantly).

Has any studies been done of this?
 
Mr. R.I.N.G., you are making one very large assumption about the nature of different species of animals - i.e., that killing those not of their own species is instinctual and natural.

This is not the case. By and large, animals require reasons to take the risk and expend the energy involved in killing other animals. To begin with, only predator species have any hunting instinct, and the most common trigger for it is hunger, not proximity. Most well-fed lions, tigers, wolves, etc., will ignore vulnerable prey species most of the time, to the point that an experienced prey animal will not hesitate to walk straight past a predator that gives evidence of already being full.

To go on with, not all animals are prey. The most common domestic animals in modern western society - cats and dogs - are both carnivorous. Carnivores make poor eating, as their flesh tastes sharp and their vital organs build up toxic levels of nutrients like vitamin A in the process of digesting the flesh of others.

The stereotypical enmity between cats and dogs exists primarily as a result of a nasty tendency over the years for people who didn't like cats to buy dogs and sic their dogs on cats as an amusement. The breeds that are the biggest threat to their neighborhood cats, in the absence of a vicious owner, are those specifically bred to hunt smaller animals (e.g., coon hounds) and those specifically bred to fight (e.g. "pit bulls"). These animals have had their agressive tendencies artificially enhanced, and are carefully monitored by responsible owners.

Even animals which know how to hunt can be taught to regard certain animals or classes of animals as non-prey, especially if the process is begun at a young age. If you don't make a big positive fuss over your cat the first time it brings you a dead mouse, you can kiss that potential mouser good-by. If you beat your coon hound for killing a kitten, it is far less likely to kill the next kitten it runs across. When I was researching my parrot book, I found a story of a cat who was a terror to cagebirds, but who left the family parrot alone because it talked to him in a human-like way and the cat classified it as human.

Lastly, hunting for food is complex learned behavior, as any cat owner who has fruitlessly tried to get her cat to actually kill the mouse it's playing with can tell you. I've had cats my entire life, and only had two good mousers, though all of them instinctively chased moving objects. Chasing is one thing; catching and killing quite another. If you examine the domestic animals around you, most of those that kill are those that have been taught to do it, either by the human being it regards as master/mommy/source of food and social reinforcement or by a mentor animal. I really wish Eric the Mighty Hunter had lived long enough to train the present generation of cats at Casa Griffin, because they're hopeless - rodents are toys as far as they're concerned.

The primary other reason for one domestic animal to kill one another is competition, which the wise owner can greatly reduce and which their own instinctive social codes are also usually good at controlling. These deaths are however most likely to be intra-specific, since pigs and dogs seldom compete for the same food source and do not usually belong to the same social hierarchy. Most herd and flock animals, which would normally spend considerable energy sorting out who has access to mates and whose offspring die, have their breeding strictly controlled by castration and separation. It's not uncommon for tom cats to kill kittens it doesn't recognize as its own, and in stressful social situations the maintenance of the intraspecies pecking order (a term derived from the literal behavior of chickens) can be perilous to the life of the lowest-status individual.

This is all normal behavior, observable both in the wild and under domestication. Interspecies relations in a domestic setting may well be more amicable than intraspecies ones, as the animals involved are already used to regarding another species - humans - as family/pack, and this makes it easy to extend family/pack privileges to alien creatures, and the different talents and requirements of the different species reduce competition and increase the benefits of cooperation. Bigger and older animals feel parental towards smaller and younger ones; dogs who can push open doors rely on cats to figure out the latch; etc.

This is all observation, not a study.
 
Interesting reply Peni - and would have to agree with most of it. However,I disagree about the notion that ' i.e., that killing those not of their own species is instinctual and natural'. All killing in the animal world is instinctual and natural when it occurs, regardless of human feeling on the matter - this includes 'unnatural' interventions such as badger baiting/dog fighting (of which I do not approve)...its merely environment and opportunity.
All that aside...great post :D
 
Peni - that is interesting observational theories, but would the same kind of friendly, non-competitive behaviors be observed in a zoo with lions and giraffes, or any other species than cats & dogs?

In my observation, our dog was brought to us as a puppy so he didn't get to socialize with other dogs. And while he was trained not to poop everywhere by us, he wasn't trained in defense. And yet, when a thief tried to come into our backyard, he was cornered into the fence until police arrived. But he wasn't violent with us, and not the other animals either. Was that instinct?

And our cats have been violent in general - the mother of them all was taken in as a stray, and it was contantly killing birds & squrells, but since we don't know her full history, it's possible it could have been trained before found by my Dad (though it was just a kitten).

I don't know if it's a UL, but I remember hearing that pit bulls were so vicious because they were bred so that their brain is under pressure from a too-small skulll... anybody else heard that?
 
I've not heard about brain pressure from a 'tight cranium' causing violence - it sounds a bit Victorian to me...but hey, I could be wrong. Howver, I have heard that lassie type collies are becoming more stupid (they used to be considered an intelligent breed) because it is fashionable to have collies with very thin snouts (and thus are bred for it) which means the cranial capacity decreases.
 
Mr. R.I.N.G. said:
I don't know if it's a UL, but I remember hearing that pit bulls were so vicious because they were bred so that their brain is under pressure from a too-small skulll... anybody else heard that?
They're vicious because they were bred to be vicious (by artificial selection).

Maybe skull pressure is the mechanism of this, but for sure no-one ever mated pit bulls thinking "This should increase the skull pressure!"
 
I gotsa agree - selection is selection. I don't see how you could guarantee that each pitbull would have a cranial deformity pressing on the correct regions of the brain to make it more violent....probably better read up on Victorian sciences (mmmm...where's me phrenology books)
 
Mr. R.I.N.G., your mama cat will have learned to hunt from her mama cat. Strays are under intense pressure to learn to hunt and scavenge for themselves, and the mothers - unlike mothers in human care - also have no choice but to go out and hunt and scavenge in order to feed the family.

Incidentally, there is a theory that when your cat brings you a dead mouse, bird, whatever, it's not looking for praise - it's trying to teach you to hunt. This is in any case how mama cats teach their kittens - bring them dead prey while they're still nursing, let them play with it, then show them how to eat it; eventually, bring them live prey and show them how to kill it.

As for the zoo animals, we see instances of interspecies tolerance and cooperation in the pages of FT all the time. It seems to be natural for social animals to extend their sociality to other species in certain circumstances - which is why we have domesticated companion animals at all. The de facto experimental labs of our homes, farms, ranches, and alleys create all kinds of interesting opportunities for gene and memes to express themselves in us and our domesticated companions/helpers/food sources/vermin.

In the wild, generally speaking, the species that aren't competing or preying on each other ignore each other, which is one way of being amicable. Social animals, however, *have* to be social, and if deprived of normal opportunities will work with what they've got. I just got back from watching *The Parrots of Telegraph Hill,* a documentary about a flock of cherry-headed conures living wild in San Francisco. Among them lived (he's dead now; hawk gets him at the end of the movie) was an elderly blue-headed conure, apparenty one of the initial escaped/abandoned pets. He and his mate had attached themselves to the cherry-headed conures for company, and when his mate died he continued to hang out around the fringes, rather grumpily. Interestingly, although he represented more or less the bottom of the pecking order, he would step in on behalf of sick and weak birds who were being targeted by the healthy birds and defend them. Also interestingly, he rejected human company, though he did not appear to find life in the cherry-head flock completely satisfactory.
 
I suspect you are mis-applying the concept of what is meant by social. Some researchers have tried to extend the egregious concept of social constructivism (my bug bear - pun) to the animal kingdom. Where sociological explanations fall down is in not applying genetic perogatives and natural cognitive capabilities in relation to the environment - sociability is not all, nor does it construct reality. There is no animal extension of sociality (in a human sense) to other animals; it is either that they are, as you rightly state, in a state of being sated and are not interested, or there instincts become confused and they extend nurture out of this confusion, not out of a cognitive decision or a desire to extend sociability/sociality. A further posit is that there is a symbiotic or nascent symbiotic relationship formation - which in itself is not a social extension but an extension of co-operation by reciprocal action/reaction to stimuli and pressure - sorry for getting a bit behaviourist there, but some instances call for it as a basis......let the debate continue
 
Mr. Duck, I think you are a) over-reading my post and b) assuming that your model of what goes on inside an animal's head is more accurate than my model, while the truth is that we're probably both pretty far off and doing the best we can.

Both of which are legitimate as far as they go. This is a message board after all.

We should perhaps make our relative starting points clear. I write fiction, therefore I imaginatively project myself into other beings in order to make sense of how they behave. To do this, I observe their behavior and collect data from the observations of others, ranging from my birding guru to my friend W, a medical research scientist with extensive hands-on experience in animal experimentation (which she sometimes describes as "torturing rodents"). The behaviorist approach has always seemed to me to be inherently flawed, as it makes the extraordinary assumption that animals have no subjectivity. Since humans are animals, and since the behavior of many animals is fundamentally similar to human behavior, I don't see a sound basis for the assumption. Sometimes you can draw useful conclusions with it, but you can't ever get very deep, and much behavior doesn't make any sense unless you assume that the cat has some kind of subjective experience. I can see my cats decide to do things and I trust my observation.

That the reasons I deduce for their deciding to do the things they do are accurate is much, much, much more than I would try to persuade anyone.

Wherever you're coming from, I believe we meet in agreement that interspecies cooperation is well within the range of natural behavior for most complex animals.
 
I would have to extend the 'over reading' analogy back. I merely stated that the behaviourist approach was a starting point - I fully agree about the full Skinnerian approach; yet behaviour does occur - lets not throw the baby out with the bathwater. While I do not disagree with most of your comments (far from it, I agree with a lot of what you say), I must point out that I am a trained scientific psychologist (among other things ;) ) and that it is all very well knowing guru's and scientists... but knowing and talking to them does not confer expertise. Further writing fiction (and judging by your style, I'm sure is very good) and placing yourself in empathy with another is no different from non-writers; it's just that you can translate your thoughts to paper far better. Yet it doesn't stop anthropomorphic tendencies and whimsy. I too have cats (3 now) and fully agree to seeing their decision process - yet I have found no clear way to scientifically establish this to various professors without being charged as I have charged you. Perhaps I am taking my frustration out on you...for which I apologise :D
 
Domestic dogs and horses are socialized to accept humans as part of their pack or herd; we exploit their instincts for our own use. I don't see how it would be any different for a dog to accept a cat as part of the pack, i.e. part of the community, regardless of how different the cat's behaviour is (i.e. it doesn't behave in ways "legible" to a dog, necessarily). I don't think recognizing this herd/pack behaviour in horses/dogs is particularly anthropomorphic.
 
Last week I read about the famous artist Stubbs, who (after extensive hands-on research into their anatomy) specialised in painting horses.

He painted one famous race horse in a field with a sheep...
fiery Dungannon made placid by the companionship of a sheep in his paddock...

Telegraph
For the colourful Irish gambler and owner-breeder Dennis O’Kelly, he depicted the racer and stallion Dungannon, alone in a field with the sheep that was his constant companion – and without which, his handlers noted, the horse was liable to become extremely fractious.

Telegraph2

All this because of a current Stubbs exhibition:
There are those who believe they cannot possibly be interested in the work of George Stubbs, England’s principal equestrian painter, simply because they are not interested in horses. Such people should be frogmarched to the National Gallery’s forthcoming exhibition ‘Stubbs and the Horse’. This enthralling show should, once and for all, put paid to the foolish misconception that Stubbs was no more than an animalier in the service of the Georgian aristocracy – a mere animal painter, recording the appearance and the equine feats of those sleek thoroughbred horses ridden, raced and treasured by the milords and miladies of 18th-century England.

George Stubbs (1724-1806) was one of the greatest British painters to have lived, and the equal of any of his European contemporaries. A brilliant draughtsman, he was gifted with a control of line not seen in England since the time of Holbein. Technical excellence aside, he was a painter-philosopher and a student of science – a true man of the Enlightenment, whose work gave expression to numerous shifts in the very texture of European thought.
....
‘Stubbs and the Horse’ is at the National Gallery, London WC2 (0870 9063891) from 29 June to 25 September
 
He still seldom got their heads right though.

Hrm, I had a really good reference (once) as to how horses bond with other species but can't lay my hands on it at the moment. I will say, while I'm here, that I think the aloof/solitary nature of cats is exaggerated by most observers and that cats do indeed have their own social structure...will have to dig that reference out too.
 
Dogs kill cats (and breed has very little to do with it, though I have seen many quite sociable dog breeds blacklisted as not suitable for cat owners...havent these people heard of training?) because the cat runs away and becomes a prey animal. (cats who lash out are more than capable of routing the fiercest dog, for a nose full of claws often disencourages) virtually all dogs (the decent ones, at least) will chase and kill. You have to teach them to be selective. In fact once they learn to leave alone, even a hardened cat killer would leave a familiar cat in peace.

(lets hope they dont tease the dog as I have seen cats do.)

You can teach a cat with small animals too, though this can be more difficult, since a cat has stronger instincts. (and is less likley to listen to an owner. I have seen cats punished for bird catching, do it again in order to annoy.)

Dogs are certainly a serious cause of cat deaths, but I have never heard of it happening within the family. (though I can imagine a dog making a mistake.)
 
In my (second-hand) experience of keeping cats with dogs, the problem is usually that the dogs try to play with the cats and the cats certainly do not wish to play with the dogs. I've never seen dogs be aggressive towards cats they live with. I think the dogs consider the cats to be pack members, and the cats consider the dogs to be a pain in the arse (but not a threat).

When I had a cat and a rabbit (which lived free-range in the garden), the cat would ignore the rabbit until the rabbit, who was quite territorial, attacked her. When I had a hamster the cat was interested in the smell and seemed to be looking for prey but rarely seemed to realise that the hamster was the prey she was looking for. The hamster didn't realise that the cat might eat her, so didn't run away, so the cat didn't realise that she could eat her. If you were keeping a cat with an animal that could be prey, I don't think it would depend so much on you training the cat not to eat the prey animal, as the prey animal not learning to be afraid of it and so not behaving like prey.
 
My family has always had mixed pet groups: dogs and cats, dogs and cats and rabbits. There were never any problems.

My sister had a cat and rabbit that liked to play fight. They would attack each other and roll around on the floor, looking fierce (the cat with full claws, exposed teeth and flattened ears). But then they'd stop and just lie down together or the cat would groom the rabbit. Very strange. The dog would sometimes get very excited and want to join in, but he was huge so was forbidden to do so

When my mum's dog died, the cat (who had been brought up with the dog) mourned for days. She yowled around the house, looking for her friend.

That same cat, when she and the dog were both young, was once brought into the living room by the dog. The dog had the cat in her mouth, her teeth clamped around the front of the cat's neck. There was blood everywhere and the cat was limp. Turns out that the dog was teething and was merely bleeding; when she picked up the cat, she was very gentle and the cat went limp like a kitten being carried by its mother. Once the dog dropped the cat, the cat just went sauntering off with blood all around her neck.
 
I have a dog (keeshond) and a black cat. The dog treats the cat like an annoying puppy, even going as far as to pin him down for grooming and playing chase games. The cat just treats the dog as a large toy.
 
I've said many times that in my experience the best dog/cat relationships are formed when the cat has the upper hand. Dogs can just be too scary when they're grown, so it helps if the cat's known it since it was a puppy and has exerted its authority early on.

At leat that's been my experience.
 
I was talking about this just last night with a vetinary friend.

They said that pretty much all cats and dogs can be taught to live together, but it is very hard to cure a dog that has gotten into the habit of cat killing.

(I see a novel version of an old Patagonian way of curing sheep killers, and that is to muzzle the dog and tie him down in a gateway, and drive a flock of sheep over him.)
 
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