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Discordian connection to Keel?

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BaronVonHoopla

Gone But Not Forgotten
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While reading the Mothman Prophesies recently, I noticed something interesting that I thought I would bring up to my fellow Forteans . . .

I've noticed what might be a Discordian connection to the Men In Black.

First, for those who have no idea what Discordianism is, here is a little bit about it, explained better than I ever could:

Discordianism
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.


Discordianism has been described as both an elaborate joke disguised as a religion, and a religion disguised as an elaborate joke. It has also been described as a religion disguised as a joke disguised as a religion. Others view it as a simple rejection of reductionism and dualism, even falsifiability — not in concept different from postmodernism or certain trends in the philosophy of mathematics. It has also been described as "Zen for roundeyes", and converges with some of the more absurdist interpretations of the Rinzai tradition; another description is that it is a Dadaist religion.

Discordianism is said to have been founded in 1959 (or maybe it was 1958) by Greg Hill (also called Malaclypse the Younger, or Mal-2) and Kerry Thornley (also called Omar Khayyam Ravenhurst). The foundational document of Discordianism is Hill's Principia Discordia.

Unlike most religions, which revere the principles of harmony and order in the Universe, Discordianism purports to recognize that disharmony and chaos are equally valid aspects of reality. Discordianism consists almost entirely of playful nonsense, but some feel it has a more serious underlying meaning.

The matron deity of Discordianism is Eris, the ancient Greek goddess of discord, whom the Romans identified their goddess Discordia.


Ok - got that?

The principle symbol of the Discordians is the Golden Apple of Eris (from the Greek Myth of the Wedding of Thetis, if you don't know about that, go look it up . . .) marked with a 'K' for Kallisti, or "for the fairest".

Still with me?

So, in the Mothman Prophesies, one of the stranger Men In Black episodes figures around one nicknamed "Tiny", who was well over six and a half feet tall. He came to visit one family under the pretense of investigating whether the head of the household was someone who was set to inherit a good sum of money. During the encounter the Man in Black took his outer coat off, revealing a "gold badge" which he put his hand over, then took off and hid in his pocket. The family only got a quick look at the badge, but they all seemed to agree that it was marked with a "K".

The family doesnt mention whether the gold badge was shaped like an apple, but it very well could have been since the classic apple shape is very close to the type of badge worn by police officers.

The Discordians are pranksters of the first order, their aim is to confuse. Could the Men in Black be all too real, and all too human? Is it possible that all these absolutely bizarre Men in Black episodes are really just Discordians in disguise trying to mess with peoples minds?

Keep in mind, I don't mean to insinuate that the actual Discordians are engaged in sketchy plots, but it seemed like a weird bit of synchronicity to me.

Any thoughts?

-Fitz
 
Maybe they were visited by Tommey Lee Jones?

(Ok, probably, chicken/egg there. The guy that wrote the comic book probably lifted that detail from tMMP.)


1. I doubt that at the time of the events, that Discordianism was that widely known.
2. I doubt these were contemporary self-styled Discordians.
3. I find it unlikely, that at that time, any alphabet-soup agency would be aware enough of Discordianism to use it as a blind.

But then again, stranger things have happened.


So, obviously, given these assumptions, the only plausible explanation is that these were time-travelling security agents from the future, where the shadow government has been infiltrated by Discordians who have made Discordianism the state religion.
 
Discordianism was started (I believe) in the mid-50's, so it was around . . . and if you notice any Men In Black episodes that happened early on were decidedly un-MIB (From what the later stories report).

But, I never intended to imply that I believed that the Discordians are being used by the government to act as a front. I don't even know that I believe any of it, just stating a strange coincidence. But, at any rate the idea of Discordians being Men In Black was just that, that they were pretending to be Men In Black, but not for any true alterior motives except to incite confusion. I don't believe for a second that the government is using the Discordians.

Which the Men In Black certainly seem to do.

Anyway, again, this isn't some belief system of mine, just an observation and something I thought was worth thinking about and discussing.

-Fitz
 
K!

I never knew that about Tommy Lee Jones' character in the movie (never seen it, I was so offended when it came out that it was a comedy when such a great movie could be made out of Men In Black, I refused, and have never seen it) . . .

Interesting.

Now I wonder, was that totally coincidence, or on purpous?

-Fitz
 
Rather off topic - but the first Men In Black flick is well worth seeing - it may be a comedy, but it's an intelligent and imaginative one which should amuse anyone with a passing interest in Ufology. Sadly, Men In Black 2 was merely a cash-in sequel with little of the charm of the original.
 
The Discordians have been closely tied to a number of different activities out on the gray fringes of the world we know; from MiB's to JFK. As a Discordian and Top Secret High Lord Commander of the Knights of the Fnord Cabal I can reveal the shocking truth. All of these theories are true, even the false ones.

While the neo-cons think they are taking over all they are doing is serving the grEATER GLOry of the Goddess!

Hail ERIS! ALL hail DiScOrDiA!

EWINGE BLAUMENKRAFT!!!!!
 
Re: K!

Fitz said:
I never knew that about Tommy Lee Jones' character in the movie (never seen it, I was so offended when it came out that it was a comedy when such a great movie could be made out of Men In Black, I refused, and have never seen it) . . .

...
Click to expand...
I must admit, I've missed out on the MIB comics, but given the limitations of film with the attendant lack of subtlety possible in 100+/- minutes, then a straight treatment of a shadowy group of secret agents answerable to no authority but their own, able to manipulate the public to their will and given massive powers to deal with strange "aliens" (obviously analogies to more mundane earthbound aliens there) in anyway they see fit , including shooting them as part of their interrogation, might not be quite the film one hoped for either.

Humour certainly takes the edge off drawing any possible parallels in the the Real World, makes it easier to suspend disbelief and helps target that crucial 12 to 13 age group at which all US films are targetted.

;)
 
A lot of Keel's output and claims of strange occurence's, coincidences and events, might make a lot more sense, if Keel himself was a Discordian, bending Reality itself to his literary will and sense of abdsurdist High Strangeness.
 
In the FWIW category, this is also in respose to this question, asked here:

http://www.forteantimes.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=2407


Fitz said:
I've been reading a lot on the boards about the new edition of The Mothman Prophesies being abridged, but the copy I bought (so far impossible to find old Keel in the used bookstores in Toronto) makes no mention of this on the copyright page, and I was under the impression that it must be stated.

Is it possible there has been a 'newer' new edition that has the expergated sections added back in? Or was this just a rumour?

If I do, indeed, have the expergated version, what exactly am I missing?
.

-Fitz
Click to expand...



The '75 US edition was by Saturday Review Press, the '76 paperback by Signet. The Canadian/UK '76 book was released under the title *Visitors From Space*by HarperCollins. The 2002 film tie-in, was put out by Tor Books. I have no idea if they differ from one another.

My edition, the 1991 Illuminet Press reprint, includes in the afterwards by Keel this: "Fifty percent of the original manuscript was edited out...but I managed to salvage part of the deleted material by reshaping it into another book titled The Eighth Tower..."

In any case, Illuminet Press was (is??, I'm not sure there is an *is* anymore) a small Georgia (the US state!) publisher who's titles include works by Jim Keith, Kenn Thomas, Kerry W. Thornley and, naturally, Principa Discordia. So you may not be the only one to have sensed a connection here (though perhaps more consciously so) , Fitz.

Also, of course, have to point out, that Ron Bonds, the man behind Illuminet Press, is #55 on the "Mothman Death List" (discussed some here: http://www.forteantimes.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=16447 FT187). He died abruptly in April 2001 (just as the film was wrapping up shooting) at the age of 48 from internal bleeding, possibly brought on by food poisoning.

My point, you ask??? Umm, No, really don't have one, but like I said, FWIW. :)
 
Fitz said:
Discordianism was started (I believe) in the mid-50's, so it was around . . . and if you notice any Men In Black episodes that happened early on were decidedly un-MIB (From what the later stories report).

But, I never intended to imply that I believed that the Discordians are being used by the government to act as a front. I don't even know that I believe any of it, just stating a strange coincidence. But, at any rate the idea of Discordians being Men In Black was just that, that they were pretending to be Men In Black, but not for any true alterior motives except to incite confusion. I don't believe for a second that the government is using the Discordians.

Which the Men In Black certainly seem to do.

Anyway, again, this isn't some belief system of mine, just an observation and something I thought was worth thinking about and discussing.

-Fitz
Click to expand...

I like it.

I think your observation is a good one, and you're on to something.

Have you read George P. Hansen's The Trickster and The Paranormal?

He discusses the Trickster element in the paranormal. A lot of comparisons can be made...
 
lenape said:
Have you read George P. Hansen's The Trickster and The Paranormal?

He discusses the Trickster element in the paranormal. A lot of comparisons can be made...
Click to expand...

No I haven't. I've never even heard of it.

When did it come out? Should I check a second hand bookstore, or would it still be in print?

-Fitz
 
Oops - one more thing

Hey all,

I realize this thread has been sleeping for about a week now, but over the weekend I realized that I hadn't included a pretty major part of my theory (chalk it up the the Acapulco Gold!) . . .

Ok, so as I said before the Golden Apple of Eris (marked with a 'K') is pretty much the major symbol of Discordianism, and one of the Men In Black was seen wearing a gold badge, supposedly marked with a 'K', which he quickly removed.

Ok, (this is going to be so anti-climactic now, I am so sorry I forgot to include this in the first post) the main Man In Black in the Mothman Prophesies is a character who popped up in a bunch of people's stories, one Mr. Apol.

How was Apol pronounced?

Apple.

Ok, so it isn't mindblowing, but that's some high strangeness synchronicity at the very least, isn't it?

-Fitz
 
most of the discordian apples i've seen have Kallisti written on them, either in english or in greek, rather than just a K.
 
I see about 50/50, although all the images I just tried to Google came up with 'kallisti'. In the Illuminatus! Trilogy it is depicted most often with just a K, and I think there are at least two places in the Principia Discordia where it is depicted with just a K.

Less often, true, but out there.

And again, I'm not saying I believe this, just found it interesting and thought I would report.

-Fitz
 
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