Dyatlov Pass Incident (1959)

[Krepostnoi]

День добрый, @Эрминтруд. I'm not how much material pertaining to the Dyatlov Pass has made its way to the Klang Valley, so I'm not sure I can claim either utility of location or wellness of connection.

What I can say is that there is, to put it mildly, no culture of transparency in Russia. It would not surprise me for a second that possibly relevant documents are inaccessible.

That said, if there is any Russian language material available to be looked over, link away!

 

[Coastaljames]

Thought I'd posted before but "Dead Mountain" by Donnie Eichar is a fantastic piece of work.

He comes to an explanation...not paranormal but none the less eerie and terrifying because of it. Horrific incident.

 

[Squiddy]

Thought I'd posted before but "Dead Mountain" by Donnie Eichar is a fantastic piece of work.

He comes to an explanation...not paranormal but none the less eerie and terrifying because of it. Horrific incident.

Read a précis of his book but haven't read it, something to do with infrasound? Are you convinced by his explanation?

 

[Coastaljames]

It's very good, I'd recommend it. Remarkable piece of investigative journalism as well as being an entertaining, if disturbing, read.

It's the most convincing I've heard, yes.

 

[blessmycottonsocks]

The Pass has claimed another victim:

https://www.rt.com/news/328454-body-found-dyatlov-pass/

 

[EnolaGaia]

The Pass has claimed another victim:

https://www.rt.com/news/328454-body-found-dyatlov-pass/

I notice that in summarizing the 1959 tragedy this article continues to miss or blur two important points in the case:

(1) The most severe injuries were found on the bodies discovered last (circa 3 months after the fact), piled together where they'd fallen into a rocky stream bed; and ...

(2) The 'compelling force' often taken to imply some lethal physical agency reflects nothing other than a failure to recognize the Russian phrase for 'force majeure'.

 

[UnknownUnknown]

I guess it's always worth putting the 'original' incident into perspective by remembering just how many fatalities have occurred in the same location without mysterious forces being at work (we assume). That doesn't mean that I don't find the 1959 mystery compelling.

On a (very) mildly fortean note, as a new forum member I picked this thread almost at random with the intention of starting at the beginning and working my way all the way through. I got to the most recent message on Wednesday morning and decided to do a quick google search to compare other coverage. I immediately discovered that there had been another fatality (found that blessmycottonsocks beat me to it when I came back here to post a link). What are the chances? I'm slightly nervous of picking the next thread to follow. I shall choose wisely! Maybe the one about finding large sums of money???

 

[XEPER_]

Thought I'd posted before but "Dead Mountain" by Donnie Eichar is a fantastic piece of work.

He comes to an explanation...not paranormal but none the less eerie and terrifying because of it. Horrific incident.

I downloaded the audio version this morning and finished it tonight. It's a short book, only lasts 6 hours or so but it was quite good.
Ultimately he suggests wind vortices sprang up outside their tent, they shat themselves (as you would), not knowing what the hell the sound and vibration was, and were so frightened they tried to escape any way possible.
I can see it.

 

[XEPER_]

I just posted a review of Dead Mountain on Audible and here, on my own website. Also includes reviews of Bernard Cornwell's new one, Graham Hancock's new one, Terry Pratchett's Colour of Magic and Penny Sartori's The Wisdom of Near-Death Experiences.

 

[Coastaljames]

Ultimately he suggests wind vortices sprang up outside their tent, they shat themselves (as you would), not knowing what the hell the sound and vibration was, and were so frightened they tried to escape any way possible.

Well summarised...a little more than "shat themselves" (scientific theory?), but yes...that's the crux of his idea. For me, no less disturbing or chilling. Horrifying.

 

[Coal]

Well summarised...a little more than "shat themselves" (scientific theory?), but yes...that's the crux of his idea. For me, no less disturbing or chilling. Horrifying.

It would require considerable presence of mind in such circumstances to remain calm and consider one is just in a kind of wind-storm.

Not sure I have that kind of sang-froid.

 

[Coastaljames]

Not just a storm...it got a little complicated for me but as I recall it the author outlined how the area created whats known as a "Karman vortex street" which, in a nutshell, generated loads of weird infrasound waves that would have both terrified and disorientated those poor folk. Effectively, he claimed, they lost their minds and panicked to a degree that had horrible results.

 

[Coal]

Not just a storm...it got a little complicated for me but as I recall it the author outlined how the area created whats known as a "Karman vortex street" which, in a nutshell, generated loads of weird infrasound waves that would have both terrified and disorientated those poor folk. Effectively, he claimed, they lost their minds and panicked to a degree that had horrible results.

'Storm' perhaps was the wrong word. It can be difficult to stay reasonable when your limbic system is howling in fear, but it can be done - as long as you know what is actually happening, so in this case knowing you're probably in such a vortex street - but once one person panics in a group the job gets very much harder.

 

[Coastaljames]

I'd agree with that.

Aside from it's compelling explanation, it's a really good book. Part investigative journalism, part travelogue- very well written. Switches from a thrilling tale of adventure to forensic investigation and back again effortlessly. He makes a great effort to humanise the victims and tell their stories. As the end of it I think my overall feeling was of great sadness that such a horrible fate had befallen these good and adventurous young people that we really get to know.

 

[XEPER_]

I don't think he was simply saying they went crazy through fear - I believe the infrasound would actually have affected them phsyically and, for want of a better analogy, made them drunk or tripping kinda thing.
So, yes, I mean, being out there in the frozen wastes, with the Yeti at the back of your mind, to suddenly hear massive roaring noises outside the tent that could be construed as groaning and on top of that to have a physical reaction to the vibrations that made you literally nuts for a while...
Terrifying.

 

[Coal]

Quite @XEPER_ . In other places I have made the point that I don't care what it is that's affecting my mind, I want to be as far removed from it as possible and I don't care (in the context of 'being there') whether it's a 'ghost', 'fetch', 'ghoul' or 'vortex shedding'.

"Exits stage left in cloud of dust and small stones."

 

[Coastaljames]

I don't think he was simply saying they went crazy through fear - I believe the infrasound would actually have affected them phsyically and, for want of a better analogy, made them drunk or tripping kinda thing.
So, yes, I mean, being out there in the frozen wastes, with the Yeti at the back of your mind, to suddenly hear massive roaring noises outside the tent that could be construed as groaning and on top of that to have a physical reaction to the vibrations that made you literally nuts for a while...
Terrifying.

Apparently the wind would have been as loud as a "freight train" for over an hour. I think his premise is that a combination of this unrelenting, raging noise with the added effect of the mind-altering infrasound effectively panicked them to a level where they had no control of their senses.

 

[Maviself]

'Storm' perhaps was the wrong word. It can be difficult to stay reasonable when your limbic system is howling in fear, but it can be done - as long as you know what is actually happening, so in this case knowing you're probably in such a vortex street - but once one person panics in a group the job gets very much harder.

As I haven't yet read the book, I can't say if my next "wondering" is addressed by the author so apologies if it is!
As far as I can ascertain, Theodore Von Karman first described the vortex street in a book published in 1954, although others had mused on its existence as early as the turn of the century.
For any of the group to be aware of the phenomenon they would have had to have read or known about an obscure book on fluid dynamics published just 5 years earlier in West Germany. Knowing how "closed" Russia was in the fifties, I doubt whether Von Karman's theory had made it that far?
So, it is perfectly possible that none of them even suspected that such a thing as a vortex street was even possible.
I think that to stay calm in those circumstances would be nigh on impossible.
Even having read and accepted the possibility of such a phenomenon I think I would still have "shat myself"!

 

[Coal]

I first encountered vortex shedding in A Level Physics, then in discussion on wind-instruments at Uni. and then making the connection to ultrasound and those vortexes much later in life. They've been implicated in health issues near wind turbines and I suspect there are topographical feature that produce them in other ways.

For sound waves at those frequencies, it's been suggested that rooms in typical houses are about the right size to forma Helmholtz cavity, so the effects are amplified.

http://newt.phys.unsw.edu.au/jw/Helmholtz.html

So for example, a hollow in the landscape might produce infra-sound vortexes if a wind of the 'right' strength is blowing across said hollow (like blowing across the top of a bottle) or a flute mouthpiece for that matter.

None of that make the experience less spooky, but it might explain why areas of relative calm in the lee of objects have a 'spooky' feel sometimes.

 

[Coastaljames]

So, it is perfectly possible that none of them even suspected that such a thing as a vortex street was even possible. I think that to stay calm in those circumstances would be nigh on impossible. Even having read and accepted the possibility of such a phenomenon I think I would still have "shat myself"!

I'm pretty much sure they would have known nothing of it.

And, I get the impression that as it's a neurological, almost mechanical issue, the affect it would have upon you would be pretty much the same whether you knew of the science or not. Only thing I can think of to compare it with would be bad acid trips. Knowing that people have bad trips is absolutely no insurance against you having one. It would make no difference.

 

[Coastaljames]

None of that make the experience less spooky, but it might explain why areas of relative calm in the lee of objects have a 'spooky' feel sometimes.

Agreed. Fascinating. How many "spooky" places could well be explained with physics?

 

[XEPER_]

I'm pretty much sure they would have known nothing of it.

And, I get the impression that as it's a neurological, almost mechanical issue, the affect it would have upon you would be pretty much the same whether you knew of the science or not. Only thing I can think of to compare it with would be bad acid trips. Knowing that people have bad trips is absolutely no insurance against you having one. It would make no difference.

Not to mention the simple fact that being in a small group in the middle of nowhere and hearing THAT outside would be absolutely horrifying.
I walked into a block of flats the other day and the wind was howling right through, very loud. I found it pretty disconcerting because, well, wind IS a scary thing because it's unstoppable!

 

[Naughty_Felid]

I was just looking at some pics of this incident from a Russian site and just got hit with with an Inspyware virus. Not really a true virus more a scam page as it was not picked up by Bitdefender.

Just hit task manager and then delete the page. Clear your temp files and run your usual protection and then reboot.


https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us...s/b13147ec-2be6-4719-a6ed-c46763b74fb9?auth=1

It was a good scam as you couldn't delete the page.

 

[Waymarker]

MURDER MOST FOUL!

The following "Dyatlov murder theory" is mine, as I haven't heard it aired anywhere else, I've also mentioned it in a few youtube comments on vids about the mystery and at author Keith McCloskey's website.
This is McCloskey's book which provided the vital clue-

En route by train to the hiking area, the Dyatlov group had to change trains at Serov station where this happened-
p 20- "A young alcoholic accused someone in the group of stealing his wallet, with the result that the police were called.
Luckily nothing came of it and the group were allowed to proceed without any further restrictions, much to their relief"

Bingo! I suggest that the chap was furious and got some of his pals together to hike after the Dyatlov group to get his wallet back, by extreme force if necessary and it got out of hand and turned into a murder spree.
Autopsies revealed severe injuries including broken bones in several of the Dyatlov group, including bruised hands on some as if there'd been a fist fight-
p 71-76- "George Krivonischenko- Bruises on hands.
Igor Dyatlov..brown/red bruises in the area of the Metacarpophalangeal joints of the right hand. A common injury in fights using fists.
Yuri Doroshenko- the fingers of both hands had torn skin.
Rustem Slobodin- bruises..in both hands."

Needless to say the attackers must have been better armed with clubs of some sort.
Here are some facts that may also support the murder theory, this first one suggests the Dyatlov group suspected they were being followed, so deliberately diverted to try to shake them-
p 31/32 "..they appear to have lost their way and ended up on the eastern slope of Kholat Syakhl ('Mountain of the Dead') rather tham Mount Otorten..as they had originally intended...Mount Otorten lay 9 miles (15km) directly to the north of where they were."

When searchers later found the abandoned tent, they noticed that clothes were strewn around outside, suggesting that after the injured Dyatlov group had fled down to the trees, the attackers had ransacked the tent, slinging stuff out as they searched for the wallet-
p 60- "Approximately 30-50ft (1-15 m) away from the tent were found shoes, socks and Igor Dyatlov's fur jacket which were lying in the snow. A weatherproof jacket also lay nearby."

Furthermore, a ski pole was found that didn't belong to the Dyatlov group, clear evidence that other people had been there. It had cuts on it suggesting it may have been used as a weapon-
p 61- "..a ski pole, which has been the subject of controversy, as none of the group were known to have a ski pole.
The pole had been damaged by having cutting marks made on it. There was no obvious explanation for the pole, i.e. how it had got there, or how and why it was damaged."

Let me add this for good measure- The incident occurred in 1959, so if we assume some of the attackers were in their 20's at the time, they might well still be alive aged in their 70's and 80's, but of course they're keeping their mouths shut!
Finally, just a thought, but if the "wallet" incident is still on file in the records of the Serov police dept, perhaps the alleged "alcoholic" could be traced and questioned if he's still alive..

Below- Keith McCloskey visited the site on the Mountain of the Dead, the flags mark where the abandoned tent was found, and the trees below are where the Dyatlov group ran down to-

http://www.keithmccloskey.com/

 

[maximus otter]

"A young alcoholic accused someone in the group of stealing his wallet, with the result that the police were called.

I suggest that the chap was furious and got some of his pals together to hike after the Dyatlov group to get his wallet back, by extreme force if necessary and it got out of hand and turned into a murder spree.

An interesting theory, but it requires a lot of assumptions about abilities and attributes that I don't associate with alcoholics:

1. The determination to formulate and carry through an involved plan.

2. The social skills to gather and motivate a group of friends to carry out a protracted and violent scheme.

3. The stamina to follow the Dyatlov party a considerable distance.

4. The sheer physical capability of overcoming and killing a group of healthy young hikers.

5. The firmness of purpose to keep such a massive secret for decades.

maximus otter

 

[Spookdaddy]

Specialist footwear and clothing - which would probably have had considerable value - appears have been left behind. I suppose items lke this would be bulky for an alleged robber, or group of robbers, to carry out with them - but was there evidence that any other valuables were stolen? I'd find it hard to believe that someone would go to what would be a very considerable amount of trouble, in hazardous circumstances - murder several people in the process - and then just go home with their own wallet.

 

[Waymarker]

An interesting theory, but it requires a lot of assumptions about abilities and attributes that I don't associate with alcoholics..

WHOA Jack! We don't know for sure that he was drunk, the Dyatlov group might simply have told the police that to discredit him when he alleged they'd pinched his wallet!
The book mentions that there was at least one other hiking group waiting for a train connection in Serov station, so perhaps he was a member of that group, therefore all fully equipped with the gear to go with him to track the Dyatlovs and get his wallet back.

 

[Spookdaddy]

WHOA Jack! We don't know for sure that he was drunk, the Dyatlov group might simply have told the police that to discredit him when he alleged they'd pinched his wallet!...

Okay - there's a possibility that the station drunk information is skewed - but, then that possibility exists for much of the other information we have.

I suppose that there is the potential for bog standard crime to be at the bottom of the incident - but there are so many 'maybes' involved in the stolen wallet theory that I can't see it as being any more convincing than any other.

 

[Waymarker]

Specialist footwear and clothing - which would probably have had considerable value - appears have been left behind..was there evidence that any other valuables were stolen?

Presumably all they wanted was their wallet back and they wouldn't have cared two hoots about pinching anything else, especially if they knew they might later be caught in possession of it by the police-
p 61- "..the Dyatlov groups money and rail tickets had been found in the tent with their belongings.."

 

[Waymarker]

..there are so many 'maybes' involved in the stolen wallet theory that I can't see it as being any more convincing than any other.

If you think other theories such as aliens or yeti are more convincing you can run with them if you like but include me out..