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Its About Time We Had Greener Toilets

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although I would imagine some designs would appear browner :)

this is from New Scientist:

Back to basics


Louise Halestrap has set herself a tough mission: to wean people off the traditional WC in favour of something more environmentally friendly. As organic waste expert at the Centre for Alternative Technology (CAT) in Machynlleth, Wales, she has become an expert in alternative toilets--and in British bathroom sensibilities. Her main problem, she says, is that most people can't face talking about what they do in the lavatory. Beatrice Newbery asks her how she plans to change the habits of a nation, and if possible the entire Western world




How do people react when you tell them you're an expert in alternative toilets?


I am often called the pooh guru or pooh doctor. I've got a collection of fake turds given to me by friends--gold-plated turds, bouncy turds, turds made from sawdust. I have them lined up on my computer.


What does this say about people's "toilet sensibilities"?


Despite this very British lavatory humour, people still like to pretend that they don't use the toilet. In polite society there is a necessary hypocrisy that pretends bowel functions don't really happen. It is a huge taboo. People in the West are disgusted by their own waste. For them it is both physically and culturally contaminating. From a young age, people are taught to go, flush and forget.


Why do we cling to the traditional WC?


The porcelain water closet has great emotional value. It has helped us go up in the world, got us out of the gutters. Clean drinking water came along at the same time as the WC. That's why it is more than just an appliance. It's an icon, a symbol of civilisation and progress. We love it because it is familiar, like an old armchair. It's white and shiny so it seems hygienic and it is easy to clean. It is also easy to operate, compact and--if you have a good water supply--reliable. It needs no energy and is easily maintained, as long as you can cope with minor blockages. That all adds up to what I call the "porcelain standard".


It sounds ideal. Why do we need alternatives?


Well, it's not as great as it sounds. Let's face it, if you've had a night of beer and curry you'll get the familiar "blimey, don't go in there". When Granny is staying, you have the clanging pipes and flushing noises in the middle of the night. If you block it, you have to get the brush and poke it down the loo. Men pee on the seat, as the design doesn't really suit standing men. Loads of traditional toilets don't work properly. They have a pathetic flush and you have to wait around until the tank has filled up before you can flush again. Flushing launches a plume of microbe-laden water droplets into the air, which isn't very hygienic. And splashback is always unpleasant. I've heard that if the Queen is away from home and needs to go, one of her minions drops a banana from a certain height into the toilet bowl. If it splashes, another lavatory must be found.


What about the environmental drawbacks?


We all know there's a water shortage in the world. Most toilets use between 8 and 15 litres every time they flush. Since people go around five times a day, that brings the average to about 50 litres a day per person. It's not difficult to see why flushing the toilet is the largest single use of water in most households--and this is drinking-quality water. Meanwhile, the system generates 20 million tonnes of sewage sludge a year--as much as all other household refuse put together.


Are British lavatorial sensibilities one of the major challenges facing alternative toilet designers?


Yes, it means we have to help people become greener but within acceptable cultural limits. Our aim at CAT is to create ecological toilets that Granny wouldn't shy away from--that keep up the porcelain standard. That's why many ecological alternatives look just like traditional WCs, with a white porcelain chute, but without water. Some dry toilets even play a tape of a flushing noise when you've finished.


What is human waste actually like?


Raw faeces are not only unpleasant but also dangerous. They must be kept separate until they are made safe by some kind of treatment process, natural or otherwise. But the amount of solid matter we excrete is quite small, less than 50 kilograms a year--that's 60 grams dry weight a day. That's a very small part of the half a tonne of human waste each person produces annually. In fact, most visits to the loo are urinations and, unlike faeces, urine is not pathogenic.


Is it nutritious?


Both urine and faeces contain valuable mineral nutrients needed by plants and other organisms. For example, there is plenty of highly soluble nitrogen in faeces. Indeed from a composting point of view, faeces can be regarded as a kind of high-quality pre- digested pâté de foie gras--delicious. The nutrient content of urine is even higher. Apart from nitrogen, faeces and urine also contain phosphorus, potassium, calcium, magnesium, sulphur, iron, sodium and chlorine, plus trace elements, all of which are used by plants. In other words, treated properly, human waste can enhance the soil enormously.


How many types of alternative toilet are there?


The simplest would be the bucket toilets used for camping, which are nothing more than a hygienic collection system for sewage that is then treated elsewhere. At the other end of the spectrum you have things like the £7000 M12 Clivus, a toilet block for public use with two pedestals on the female side and one on the male side, a no-flush urinal which drains into the back of the composting chamber, and a fan powered by lead batteries that are recharged by photovoltaic panels. It's a major piece of kit. At CAT we have fourteen types of alternative toilet--five different composting toilets, six different waterless urinals and three different types of low-flush toilet.


Do they have drawbacks?


Yes. Personally, I hate the de-watering toilet used in caravans which dries the waste with a fan and a heating element. They basically cook the shit and turn it into something resembling gravy granules. You sit on a toilet bowl, but your bottom is 10 centimetres from the waste. If you have a lot of people round then it can't dry the shit quickly enough, so it piles up even higher. To make it worse, when you empty the dried granules onto the flowerbed, they turn back into sewage slurry in the rain because they haven't been composted at all. Far from perfect, although all these toilets are appropriate for some situations.


What's your favourite?


The real composting toilet, and I dream of having one at home. My partner won't let me build one yet, he's not ready for it, but I'm working on him. They are much more sophisticated than the WC. They have vents and fans which take the smell down the toilet and keep the flies away. Flies like shit, so when you're composting they become as much of an issue as smell. This is the greenest loo available and the cleanest.


If you own a composting loo, do you have to get your hands dirty?


It's quite simple. You have to chuck a scoop full of straw, sawdust or other carbonaceous material down every time you go to the loo. This sorts out the carbon-nitrogen ratio and gets it composting, giving air a chance to get in and around. Once a month, somebody has to go "peak knocking". When pooh and sawdust go down the hole, they create a cone. If you leave it, it will grow so high that it comes out of the loo. Peak-knocking involves flattening the pooh tower and mixing it over to the edges.


Should we all go out and buy a real composting loo?


Absolutely not. Composting toilets suit some situations, but not all, because they require enough space for a little microbial degradation plant under your house. I wouldn't recommend one if you live in a high-rise block. When choosing an ecological loo you have to choose the most appropriate. There's no point in having a huge electric fan in a campsite compost loo where there's fresh air around and where people expect something earthy.


It sounds more of an ordeal than choosing a washing-machine . . .


We encourage people to see "toilets" in context, rather than in isolation. There's no point salving your ecological conscience by having a dry toilet if you have a swimming pool. And there's no point in paying a fortune to install a composting toilet to feed your garden when you can get the same result for less effort by composting your other household wastes. At the end of the day, most dry toilets do not fit easily into bathrooms, lifestyles or budgets. And while dry toilets are the best solution from a water-saving point of view, people can achieve 60 to 80 per cent of their water-saving potential by other, easier means.


Such as?


In a conventional setting, an ultra-low-flush WC is probably the most rational choice. These use an average of 3 litres per flush, compared to 10 litres per flush in a traditional toilet. Another easy water-saving alternative is the waterless urinal. People don't like urinals because of their public lavatory associations, but they make a lot of sense. Then there's urine-separating flush toilets. These are sophisticated enough to separate solid and liquid waste at source. Most work on the principle that people pee forward (if men sit down to pee rather than stand up) and pooh straight down, and they have a separate urine chute at the front of the bowl. You flush away the solid, but the urine flushes away itself. The only problem with these is when small children sit on the front of the loo to read the Beano and pooh into the urine separator.


So how are you going to persuade people they need to ditch their WCs?


When Scandinavians come to our centre and see our ultra-low-flush loos they are very nonchalant and say, "Oh, I've got that at home." For that to happen in Britain we need a psychological shift. I am really trying to break down mental barriers and get people talking and thinking about their waste in an open way before we can encourage them to take responsibility for it. Even I used to be a pooh-phobe, but working closely with turds I soon lost my preciousness. When I am teaching, my students often hover by the doorway of a composting loo, pulling horrified faces. I invite a brave one to come forward and stick their head right in it and see if it smells. Once one person has done it, everybody wants to stick their head down the toilet bowl. Like these students, we all just need a little encouragement to get more pooh-friendly.

Lifting the Lid: An ecological approach to toilet systems by Peter Harper and Louise Halestrap is published by CAT Publications. See http://www.cat.org.uk

Be honest folks, what steps can we take to save water ? Do we need to re-evaluate our toilets ?
 
I've heard that if the Queen is away from home and needs to go, one of her minions drops a banana from a certain height into the toilet bowl. If it splashes, another lavatory must be found.

Only in England...

A ponder; If HRH does a floater, does the same lackey break it up to make it flush. or is that another functionaries job? Now, that, would be a TRUELY sh*tty job...



8¬)
 
I seem to recall - actually I will never forget - batty telly-scientist
Adam Hart-Davies demonstrating the earth-closet in a tea-time
show a couple of years ago.

Rather than use a banana, he had supplied himself with an
ample quantity of what he assured us was fake poo.

Anyway the idea was to prove that nasties were quickly neutralized
in the soil.

I lived for some time in a Welsh cottage without an indoor WC.
The chemical toilet in the outhouse gave the kind of splashback
that sent me off to read the labels on the chemicals. No sign
that it was tested an animals . . .

Every few months, the thing had to be drained and flushed out.
Not a pleasant task at all. :cross eye
 
Well, we could of course stop using drinking water to flush with. That does seem quite stupid. Do you want to tell some African kid with dehydration that we actually use drinking water to get rid of our shit?

It would be much better if we made them run on rain water. And using water saving types. like the ones that have a button for #1 and #2.

I also remember a guy invented a machine that can make clean drinking water from faeces. But I don't know how economically viable it is though. And then of course there was a link to something about a guy who could make electricity out of it, but my company wouldn't let me access that one. They seem to have something against planetsave sites.
 
I've heard the Queen/banana thing before, though I thought it was to determine the distance that the nearest person could stand to the lavvie as mere mortals aren't allowed to hear the Royal Plop. I always thought it had a whiff of UL about it.
 
hrh toilet

regarding royals and toliets the prince of wales has a revolutionary system in highgrove, his gloucester home, he treats all the sewage there using filtration and plants that clean it all up this isnt practical for all of us it takes alot of space and time.
 
At this point, may I recommend:-

The Specialist,

by Charles Sale.

Still in print after many years & still the top book on this subject:D
 
Re: hrh toilet

elona said:
regarding royals and toliets the prince of wales has a revolutionary system in highgrove, his gloucester home, he treats all the sewage there using filtration and plants that clean it all up this isnt practical for all of us it takes alot of space and time.

Some councils, for disposal of collected domestic sewage, and large corporations, on large sites, use reed bed 'technology' . I've seen it both here and in The Netherlands. Suprisingly, it doesn't smell as much as normal waste treatments

8¬)
 
And there's no point in paying a fortune to install a composting toilet to feed your garden when you can get the same result for less effort by composting your other household wastes.

Night soil

human excrement; -- so called because in cities it is collected by night and carried away for manure.

You know it makes sense.

Also,:
'Gordon's flushed with pride at loo invention'
"He has invented and patented the design on a new toilet cistern which, he claims, could save almost 200 million litres of water in Britain every year – if taken up by just 25% of the population.

"The biggest use of water in Britain is not on washing machines or dish washers but on flushing toilets," said Gordon. "

-J
 
James Whitehead said:
The chemical toilet in the outhouse gave the kind of splashback
that sent me off to read the labels on the chemicals. No sign
that it was tested an animals . . .

Every few months, the thing had to be drained and flushed out.
Not a pleasant task at all. :cross eye

It does make you wonder what's the most harmful (to yer bum and to the environment) - the blue rinse or the raw product itself.
I had the dubious and testing 'pleasure' of finding myself in desperate need of the portable lavvie at an airshow (Fairford) a few years back. From previous experience, I had learned to do without, if possible - the queues were always horrendous, and when you finally arrived, there was, of course, either no paper, or it had fallen to the floor and soaked up the pungent residue left by a hundred long-sighted marksmen. Staying upright in the slippery cubicle for two minutes would qualify you for the British Ice-Skating Team. (As a quick aside, I have to ask if anyone knows why, of a block of six loos, two would be allocated to the Gents, one would be OOO, and the remaining three reserved for the Ladies - particularly when you look around and see that 80% of the attendees are male?).
Anyway, on this occasion, I had the added misfortune of arriving at the top of the steps at the same time the chemical tanks were due to be emptied. Now, you would think there would be a valve beneath the cabin to attach the tanker hosing, wouldn't you? Apparently not.
There was a guy on his knees, lowering the thick sucklift hosing through a trap in the floor of the crowded booth, his arms blue to the elbow. Holding my breath, and looking down (big mistake), I saw the heaving blue and brown sludge hovering two inches beneath floor level. Averting my gaze before the doughnuts I had eaten earlier decided to add to the colourful display, I heard the guy say to someone:
"I went for a bank loan the other day. The manager asked me what I did for a living.
"'Suck s***,' I replied.
"'I beg your pardon?!' he said.
"'I use a hose to suck excrement into a tanker'."

And that's exactly what he did. And with such good cheer I almost offered him a doughnut.

Almost.
 
Until the late 60s, my grannie's house in rural Ulster had a loo that consisted of a shed, with a holed seat, suspended over the stream that ran by at the bottom of the garden. That was all there was to it - everything got swept away and dispersed (there was no smell at all, and not much visible residue), and I was assured that only cows drank from it downstream. The stream-water was yellowish anyway, on account of it coming straight out of a bog - maybe there were nitrates or something in it that sterilised the poo. There was no water supply to the house and all water came from the stream - upstream of the toilet, naturally.
Naturally, the family were hugely proud when they had a water-supply installed and acquired a "proper" toilet. If I'd had the money at the time, I'd have bought the place and kept it as it was, with just the addition of insulation and solar panels. (I'll never inherit it, being the youngest child of a younger child.):rolleyes:
 
The WC has a long and very curious literary history. An Elizabethan
gentleman name of Harringdon or Harrington? got in first with a
pamphlet entitled The Metamorphosis of Ajax, which advocated
the use of water to flush things away. The title was a pun on the
name Jakes, used to describe the necessary office.

That obscure Elizabethan pun surfaced unexpectedly in a Hollywood movie.

Big purple prize for anyone who can name it. ;)
 
I've just been on a weekend trip to Holland (my first trip abroad!), and I was surprised by the loos over there. Amazingly, they have a huge shelf where the hole would normally be. A friend who went with me told me that the Dutch people like to *inspect* their faeces, to spot any problems such as worms.
I suppose it's logical, but appears rather strange to our British sensibilities.

As for the Queen not liking a plop or splashback - heck, what's wrong with stuffing a bit of loo paper down the loo? Another good reason to abolish the bloody monarchy.
 
Ah yes, I really don't get those things. I moved to Holland recently and was quite surprised to find those toilets. I had heard of them but thought it was only in Germany you'd find them. I'm happy my house has a normal one as well. But what is the whole idea of the shelve, when all you get is a very dirty toilet.
 
The idea,according to legend, comes from Germany, where a large part of the staple diect was pork and intestinal worms were a bit of a problem. Therefore the loos were designed with the wonderful 'performance art' shelf, with opening and the water trap under the front of rim. Using one hard on the heels of the prvious occupant is nearly always mephitic, due to the positioning of the hole. When I lived briefly in one of the large towns outside Amsterdam they had one, but I was lucky to get a place in Amsterdam with a more traditional 'hole in the middle - kersploosh' model.

Since we're discussing alternate arrangements to our loos, has anyone got an opinion on the France 'squat-hole', you seem to find in brasseries all over Paris, and I have encounters as far south as the italian lakes...

One of the oddest thing I've sen was a hotel in Harvard, which looked pretty normal, but without the benefit of a maceration unit, made a noise like jet-engine when flushed and seemed to be highly pressurised.

Looking over the above, prior to posting, it looks like my sig should read 'Been there, seen it, taken a crap there' :)


8¬)
 
harlequin said:
Since we're discussing alternate arrangements to our loos, has anyone got an opinion on the France 'squat-hole', you seem to find in brasseries all over Paris, and I have encounters as far south as the italian lakes...

8¬)

Yeah, I used one in Greece. And believe me, Grease is the word. One slip on the ceramic footings, and you're really in the ****. This was a canal astride which you place your feet, taking up a pose much like a ski-jumper on the ramp. The action itself is like ten-pin bowling - but with the necessity of hitting a strike every time. :cross eye
 
Mythopoeika said:
I've just been on a weekend trip to Holland (my first trip abroad!), and I was surprised by the loos over there. Amazingly, they have a huge shelf where the hole would normally be. A friend who went with me told me that the Dutch people like to *inspect* their faeces, to spot any problems such as worms.
I suppose it's logical, but appears rather strange to our British sensibilities.

As for the Queen not liking a plop or splashback - heck, what's wrong with stuffing a bit of loo paper down the loo? Another good reason to abolish the bloody monarchy.

They have the same arrangement in Germany, Mytho.

The Queen could get one of those Japanese loos which play music to muffle the sound of any 'toilet noises'!

Carole
 
I can just picture it: One royal aid turns to another in the courtyard as the belaboured strains of the National Anthem waft into earshot: "Ha, the Queen's having a farty time in the crapper again."

:D
 
LOL! Or they could play Handel's Music for the Royal Fireworks:)

Carole
 
Hermes said:
Yeah, I used one in Greece. And believe me, Grease is the word. One slip on the ceramic footings, and you're really in the ****. This was a canal astride which you place your feet, taking up a pose much like a ski-jumper on the ramp. The action itself is like ten-pin bowling - but with the necessity of hitting a strike every time. :cross eye

They have the same thing (called 'Asian' toilets) in SE Asia. They have some in Singapore Airport, which europeans avoid like the plague unless desperate. My huband used to work in Indonesia, in places off the tourist track, and in these out of the way places they had water to wash yourself with, instead of toilet paper. A lot more environmentally friendly, but something I could never get the hang of . . .

Carole
 
I take it you mean with a hose or something? If not, I'll bet no-one's biting their fingernails? (in which case, it could be quite painful. Can't win, really.).



:)
 
In the NEW Indira Gandi Airport at Delhi, facilities in the loos, consist of a cold water tap & a drain in the floor.

Just don't even ask about the facilities in the sticks!!!!!!

Everything "unclean", is done with the left hand, while everything "clean" is done with the right, which I suspect, means that Hermes should only be biting the nails of his RIGHT hand!!!!!!!
 
TV prog on Toilet Technology

I have heard rumour (from a pal in the BBC @ Bristol) that there will soon be a Science Shack programme on Loo Tech with Adam Hart-Davis.

Mr enthusiastic strikes again :spinning
 
Hermes said:
I take it you mean with a hose or something? If not, I'll bet no-one's biting their fingernails? (in which case, it could be quite painful. Can't win, really.).



:)

No, Hermes, there was either a bucket full of water, or a large reservoir (called a mandi and you used a small basin with a long handle to sort of splash yourself with. I suppose if you're wearing traditional Indonesian gear, it's not too bad, but with western clothing it can be a bit awkward.

Carole

PS, oh, and with reference to the 'Phobias' thread, there were often quite sizeable butterflies roosting in these rural toilets, which caused me quite a bit of grief:(
 
Sounds a bit like India Hermes, where even in the Indira Gandhi airport at Delhi, as well as paper, (if you are lucky, or bring your own) the loos have a tap with a drain below, so that you can wash your nether regions if you choose to do so.
 
composting toilets

We put in a composting toilet about 10 years ago when I built the house.Being a bit of a greenie I wanted to avoid excess water usage(we live in a 32inch rainfall belt).The system was a off the shelf system that requires about 3 feet clearance below the floor.Luckliy most houses in QLD are elevated off the ground to allow the cooling movement of air.The system itself hasmoveable particians that the biosolid falls into and is rotated to avoid smell and aid decomposition,not being blessed(PHEW) with children I also put in soft food scraps,seems to work(dogs get the bones)and the compost is second to only the worm castings I produce.The National Parks and Wildlife service has adopted the same technology to avoid polluting National Parks,which has huge benefits especially in fragile placessuch as the sandy Wallam country.Cost is roughly $3500 aussie dollars which is bugger all UK pounds.My Dad at Maleny has a dual tank enviro system with a water pump out for the garden.It is based upon the Council systems that tertiary treat and then do a secondry treatment leaving clear fresh(I wouldn't drink it) water high in nitrogen.It gets inspected every 6 months to ensure safety of ecoli numbers etc ,cost about $4500 aussie dollars.Hope this helps,you got to remember that all the systems take a bit of effort and sometimes a change of habbits.
 
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