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Locked up to make us feel better

ramonmercado

CyberPunk
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I think this deserves a place in The Human Condition Forum. Just think, an eighteen year old can get a life sentence for petty vandalism. One strike and you are out.

Locked up to make us feel better
David Rose

Published 19 March 2007

Petty criminals are increasingly being given life sentences not for crimes they have committed, but to protect the public from their possible future behaviour. Soon our prisons will hold more people in such preventive detention than murderers.


Almost unnoticed, a fundamental change in penal policy is gathering pace. The main factor in the length of a sentence is, increasingly, not the severity of a crime, but the supposed risk that an offender will do something worse if released.

Risk assessment is at best an inexact science - often, as we shall see later, shockingly so. But its emerging role in the sentencing process is having dramatic consequences: hundreds, soon to be thousands, of petty arsonists, pub brawlers and street muggers are in effect being given life, usually on the basis of highly subjective pre-sentence reports.

The change is certain to cause a further great rise in the prison population, already at record levels, having grown faster under new Labour than under any previous government. It is also arousing deep concern among lawyers, and will top the agenda at a special conference organised by the Criminal Bar Association in Birmingham next month.

The consequences for classical notions of justice are profound. Old lags have a saying: "If you can't do the time, don't do the crime." It needs reformulation: "If you can't do the time, don't have a background that might make a bureaucrat think if ever you're set free, you might be dangerous to the public."

At the heart of this shift is a piece of legislation whose import was barely appreciated when it passed through parliament: the Criminal Justice Act 2003, with its indeterminate public protection (IPP) sentences. According to the act, judges must impose an IPP - life in all but name - on any person convicted of any one of 153 separate violent and sexual offences, if they believe, in the words of the act, that there is "a significant risk to members of the public of serious harm from the commission of further specified offences". In an appeal judgment last year, one of the most senior criminal appeal judges, Lord Justice Judge, made clear how huge a departure this is: "Although punitive in its effect, with far-reaching consequences for the offender on whom it is imposed, it [the IPP] does not represent punishment for past offending. The decision is directed not to the past, but to the future."

It is not as if it had been difficult to lock up the truly dangerous under existing legislation. For decades, judges have been able to give "discretionary" life sentences to those convicted of certain crimes short of murder, such as rape and wounding with intent to kill. After 1998, the "two strikes and you're out" law (now replaced by the IPP) meant that anyone convicted of one of a short list of very serious crimes for a second time got life automatically.

However, the scale on which the IPP is being used dwarfs these older measures. Discretionary and automatic life sentences used to be given about 200 times each year. Since coming into force in April 2005, the IPP has been imposed more than 2,000 times, with a rate of over 100 new IPPs each month. As an official told me, Home Office models predict that by 2011, there will be 12,500 inmates serving IPPs - more than three times as many as those doing life for murder.

"Risk panic"

Hard cases, as the saying goes, make bad law, and the cases that the government cited to justify the 2003 act were very hard indeed - such as the release of the paedophiles who killed the 14-year-old Jason Swift in 1985. Such debate as there was helped to fuel a "risk panic", in which the media have focused obsessively on crimes committed by previous offenders who should have been under supervision, such as the 2005 murder in Reading of the teenager Mary Ann Leneghan.

It cannot be stressed sufficiently that there is no empirical basis for this panic at all. A study of sex offenders emerging from long-term imprisonment, published in 2002 by a team led by Oxford University's Roger Hood, found (as had earlier, similar projects) that their reconviction rate is reassuringly low. Of the 94 followed for six years after release, only eight were reconvicted for a further sexual offence. Another four were reconvicted and jailed for a non-sexual violent crime. Since the study, multi-agency schemes to monitor such offenders after release and more widespread sex offender treatment in prison may well have reduced this risk.

Even freed lifers commit relatively few crimes. The number of homicides by those previously convicted of homicide and released varies each year between zero and two - roughly 0.3 per cent of murders. In all, about 3 per cent of freed lifers will eventually be convicted of an imprisonable offence.

Nevertheless, public rhetoric is at fever pitch. A recent Observer article claimed that the system for monitoring freed sex offenders in the community is close to collapse. This was accompanied by an editorial headlined: "Control these terrifying predators". Robert Whelan, of the think-tank Civitas, told the Sunday Times that the lesson from the Mary Ann Leneghan case was that all offenders should be kept much longer in prison. Those who disagreed, he said, were "diehard utopians".

Radical as the 2003 act is, it was not the first attempt to protect society from its most dangerous members. From 1857, government criminal statistics began to include figures for "known thieves and depredators". The long search for ways to deal with them began.

By the end of the 19th century, social Darwinism and the work of writers such as Cesare Lombroso had added a veneer of science to the notion of the predatory criminal, and preventive detention for periods far in excess of the ordinary prison sentence was increasingly seen as the solution. Some, such as the writer Bruce Thomson, argued that these inmates should also be castrated: "With cattle, this kind of selection is in fact almost always followed: for hardly anyone is careless enough to allow his worst animals to breed. Why, then, should incorrigible criminals go into prison for short periods only, only to be sent out again in renovated health, to propagate a race so low in physical organisation?"

The term "personality disorder" had yet to be invented, but many argued that dangerous criminals had something like a disease, which made their behaviour incorrigible. As the Westminster Review put it in 1898, "the criminal, while not in the ordinary sense lunatic, is thoroughly irresponsible, hopelessly perverted and mentally and physically incapable of reformation. He is a dangerous animal, and society must be protected against him."

Tyranny of bureaucrats

Against this background, the first public protection sentencing measure took shape: Herbert Gladstone's Prevention of Crime Act 1908. When sentencing a criminal, the court would pay close attention to his record, and so deduce whether there was a high risk of recidivism. If the court thought there was, indeed, "evidence of habituality", it could impose a "dual-track" sentence - first an ordinary penal element, equating to what would previously have been the total sentence, and then "preventive detention", usually for five years. Thus, Gladstone argued, the most dangerous villains would be incapacitated.

The Liberal MP and writer Hilaire Belloc argued in vain that this was "utterly at variance with every political or social principle that western Europe had ever known" for more than 3,000 years. The act, Belloc said, would enshrine the "tyranny of bureaucrats".

One of the sharpest critics of the 1908 act was the home secretary who took office two years later, Winston Churchill. His fear was that it was likely to fall hardest not on the most dangerous, but on prolific petty criminals. "The general test should be - is the nature of the crime such as to indicate that the offender is not merely a nuisance but a serious danger to society?" Churchill wrote in an official circular. Thus he identified a crucial issue of enormous relevance today.

Compared with its 2003 successor, the 1908 act was relatively little used - usually there were fewer than 100 preventive sentences a year. But when it was finally evaluated by a departmental committee in 1932, the findings were devastating. As Churchill had predicted, most of those sentenced were not dangerous at all, but "men of little mental capacity or strength . . . whose frequent convictions testify as much to their clumsiness as their persistence in crime".

Undeterred by this failure, Attlee's Labour government passed another preventive detention act in 1948. In 1963 an inquiry by the home secretary's Advisory Council on Sentencing showed that this was equally unjust. Most of those given the new form of preventive detention - up to 180 people a year - were, in the words of a report from Cambridge University, not predators, but "passive inadequate deviants". In 1967, the 1948 act was repealed.

Overcrowded prisons

Evidence is now emerging that the defect spotted by Churchill in the 1908 act is equally manifest in that of 2003. According to official figures, just 28 - 4 per cent - of the first 707 IPPs were imposed on those convicted of crimes against children, and a further 40 on rapists. Forty-four of those sentenced were arsonists, and 149 had been convicted of wounding. But by far the biggest group - 284 prisoners, or roughly 40 per cent of the total - were given IPPs for robbery, almost all of them for street crimes or mugging.

To be sure, some muggers may, on release, go on to commit murder. A minority of arsonists may one day set a fire in which someone is badly hurt. Yet it is clear that the crimes actually committed by many of those getting IPPs are relatively insignificant - and nothing like as serious as those which would previously have merited life. The median tariff set for the first 707 IPP prisoners - that is to say, the penal element of the sentence, the term that would have been imposed before the 2003 act - is just 30 months.

In theory when the tariff expires, IPP prisoners, as with those serving life for murder, become eligible for Parole Board review, and hence possible release. But as the board's chairman, Sir Duncan Nichol, pointed out last December, even if they do get out at their first opportunity, they will probably spend much longer in jail than before. Most IPP inmates will have spent months on remand, and by the time they have been sentenced and settled in a long-term prison, their review date may well be looming.

It takes months, however, for the various prison and other officials necessary to this process to prepare and write their reports. In addition, before freeing someone already deemed dangerous, the Parole Board will need to see that their so-called "dynamic risk factors" have declined - perhaps by graduation from a long course of therapy while in prison. The likelihood is that the time many inmates spend in jail being assessed as future risks will be longer than the time served as punishment.

Nichol commented: "The global impact of IPPs will be that prison overcrowding will increase; places on offending behaviour courses will be scarce; prisoners may spend more time in custody awaiting such courses when they might otherwise have been released earlier; crucial time will be spent writing parole reports by prison and probation staff who have other duties; and the Parole Board will need increased resources to deal with a quadrupling of our indeterminate casework."

A further factor seems likely to make sentences longer still. The 2002 study of long-term sex offenders by Professor Hood and his colleagues suggested that the Parole Board has an innate and understandable bias towards being overcautious: no one wants to be responsible for setting a maniac free. The study looked at what happened to 82 men whom the board decided were "high-risk" and hence refused parole. Four years after their eventual release, just seven had been reconvicted of a further sexual offence, and four for a violent offence - a false positive rate of 92 per cent for a sexual crime, and 87 per cent for either sex or violence.

These men had been serving determinate, fixed-term sentences, so knew the latest they would get out: perhaps, in their cases, such apparent overcaution was acceptable. Now, however, many of the same type of prisoners will be serving IPPs and may never be freed at all, or be freed only after an exceedingly long time.

Sex offenders sentenced today will have been assessed using one or more structured, psychological "tools". These are not, in any sense, infallible: derived from analysis of prob abilistic risk factors shared by groups, they are a very blunt instrument when applied to individuals - when even their staunchest advocates admit that they are no more than about 75 per cent accurate. Hood's team also looked at what happened after release to prisoners deemed to be high-risk using the tool known as Static-99, and found a false positive rate only slightly better than the Parole Board's.

But at least these tools have been evaluated. Perhaps the most disturbing aspect of IPPs is that the method being used by judges in most cases has no such basis at all.

According to the Home Office, most non-sex offenders considered for an IPP - that is, more than 90 per cent - will have been subject only to the standard OASys pre-sentencing assessment, a box-ticking exercise by a probation officer who often will have no direct experience of the offender. Having considered, in a formulaic manner, a variety of factors derived from the paper record, the officer ends the process by making what amounts to a purely subjective judgement: is this offender low, medium, high or very high risk? If either of the latter two, he will probably get an IPP.

I spoke to officials who designed the OASys forms. To date, there has not been any evaluation of their predictive powers, even though they are now being used daily to justify indefinite incarceration. It is, as Belloc put it, "the tyranny of bureaucrats". A new study by the criminologist Diana Fitzgibbon can only amplify such concerns. Based on her investigation of OASys risk analysis in a large city, it finds evidence of "risk inflation", leading to the "non-transformative warehousing" in prison of those thought to be risky. She also discovers widespread gaps in offenders' OASys files - omissions of crucial episodes in their histories that might, had they been considered, have led to their being given a lower risk category.

Authoritarian dystopia

Perhaps this risk inflation explains some of the cases of IPPs that have already been upheld by the Court of Appeal. For example, there was the 18-year-old with no previous convictions who set fire to two rubbish bins at a seaside resort; and the middle-aged man who set fire to his house when his mother went into a care home - he didn't even do the job very effectively: he poured cooking oil on some cushions and tried to set them alight. Among the numerous robbery cases, there was a man who punched a pizza delivery driver in the chest, and tried unsuccessfully to steal his car; later that night he threatened - though did not hurt - someone else and made off with his mobile phone.

In his story (later a Tom Cruise movie) "The Minority Report", Philip K Dick wrote of a system governed by the notion of "precrime", where people who had yet to do anything wrong were convicted and sentenced because the authorities "knew" they would.

Dick was writing science fiction, but even minus his "precogs" - weird beings with the gift of second sight - the precrime world is already here. It shows every sign of becoming an authoritarian dystopia.


The facts of crime and punishment
Research by Sarah O'Connor

2,000 number of preventive detention orders issued in the UK since April 2005

3% only this proportion of freed lifers is reimprisoned for new offences

17,000 increase in UK prison population since new Labour came to power

8,000 number of extra prison places the Home Office plans to create by 2012

£100,000 cost of creating each new prison place

http://www.newstatesman.com/200703190027
 
This doesn't seem to differ all that much from demanding that first-time sexual offenders register as HABITUAL sex offenders.
 
Greetings,

Sadly I have been on the wrong side of the American justice system. I committed a serious crime and got a serious sentence, 7-25 years in federal prison. I was very young at the time and had I not received "Shock parole" after 18 months, I am sure I would not be sitting in the comfort of my kitchen typing this story 27 years later. While I was in there I shared a cell with a kid that had got caught selling LSD at a Greatful dead show his term was 118 years (ten years per dose). There was another guy who had shot his wife at the place where she worked, his term was 25-life, he got parole after 18 years. Robbers, rapists, murderers, con-men, drug dealers, you name it and I met it.
Prisons are necessary. There are many dangerous and evil people in there, who should never see the light of day, but many more are innocent . Keeping people in jail for what crimes they might commit in the future is very Orwellian. This where we have come to as a species, in America we are faced with a fundy government that will allow destruction of a fetus or an embryo after the carrier no longer wants it, yet no stem cell research, which could save lives. We have a president who used to do coke, the one before was a reefer smoker. I saw on another thread here a picture of Tony Blair back in his college days, come on, he is no stranger to the bong. These men sit in judgment of others and hold themselves above the rest of us mere people. I am a living example of a redeemed convict. I killed a man who was trying to kill me, if I had of done all 7 or 25 years I would be a very bad fellow now. I am a good man. So many others are lost in the penal system. How often do we see an article about DNA excluding a man of a crime he was convicted for 20 years past?
I have to live the rest of my life with the mark of Cain, as I should.
I just think the justice system is fucked. My heart goes out to those in prison who have been over-judged.
I hope you folks do not think less of me for my confession.

PEACE!
=^..^=217
 
Not at all.

We in GB must be thankful that we do not have a justice system like yours, and you in the US must be thankful you are not as harsh on self defence killings as we are.
 
I knew a cop in Northern Kentucky who quit the force because he could no longer in conscience arrest teenagers for the non-violent and victimless "crimes" which he had himself regularly committed when he was their age.
 
OldTimeRadio said:
I knew a cop in Northern Kentucky who quit the force because he could no longer in conscience arrest teenagers for the non-violent and victimless "crimes" which he had himself regularly committed when he was their age.

On the radio yesterday am there was a campaigner from Tenesse. A 17 yr old boy got a 10 yr sentence for having consensual sex with his 15 yr old girlfriend. Theres a law against Pedophiles which mandates a 10 yr sentence for sex with asn underage girl regardlless of the age of the offender. The judge had no choice. This law has now been amended and its only a misdemeanour for under 18 yr olds to have sex. But it wasnt made retrospective. In a couple of weeks time the Tennessee House will vote on a bill to allow judges toamend their sentences in such cases. No guarantee it will be passed. So far the kid has spent 25 months in prison.

Thanks for sharing Buckeye, I certainly think more of you.
 
I watched "Cops with cameras" [pfff] the other day and was sickened by the way they do raids for dealers. First of all, I am all for it when it comes to narkotics such as Heroin or Coke, basically everything that gets you hooked immediately and poses a serious risk to your life and others. When it comes to smoke, the table turns. You can't slam your way through a door in the early morning hours, scaring small kids and pets witless, to the point of hysteria, have up to 10 men/women in armour and guns run through your house shouting for some cannabis. However that is what I saw.
Its overkill, its the law being far mor destructive than the crime. I hate it when lives are destroyed not from the drugs but from the laws against these drugs. There is a brilliant website about the deaths caused in the war against cannabis, there are hundreds of people who were innocent bystanders yet got shot by the police during raids etc. The total of deaths from using cannabis however is zero.

This seems tho be the same for other laws and their enforcement. Sometimes it is simply too much. It would be funny, if the law wasn't so lenient towards "real" criminals. Of course it is easier to nick people who actually don't do much harm and just want to be left doing whatever they are doing, or people who are usually law abiding but have an issue with a certain law which seems unfair etc.
Police are obviously led towards the "easy" targets as they increase easily and painlessly their quota, whereas having to investigate and use their time catching people who are actually a danger to society. But those are hard to catch.
 
Greetings,

Thank you Ramone.
OTR (that's Old time radio, not Over The Rhine lol)
I grew up in Cincinnati and spent quite a bit of my youth being a punk rocker in New Port, KY. Northern Kentucky is a place you do not want to get arrested in. Even though I live in a more dangerous city now (Philadelphia, PA) the cops up here have other stuff to worry about than a couple of guys smoking a joint out side of the bar.
Dingo, you are so right about the weed thing, (funny I am posting pro weed as I am now off the shit) Ha! life is funny like that.
The tar from weed does collect in your lungs, but I smoke pack ana half of winstons a day. Hell who wants to be 99yrs old lying in bed dying from nothin?
What are the laws in GB for self defense?
The CEO's of Enron can pinch pensions worth billions and do 3 years, plus they are still wealthy.
As I race towards my own end days I often think of the witch in wizard of Oz as she is melting............Its a cruel, cruel world..........
Sometimes I wonder if we aren't the feeder mice.
PEACE!
=^..^=217
 
psychiatry already does this. locking someone up as a danger to yourself (they say) amounts to punishment they have not yet done.
 
BuckeyeJones said:
OTR (that's Old time radio, not Over The Rhine lol)
I grew up in Cincinnati and spent quite a bit of my youth being a punk rocker in New Port, KY. Northern Kentucky is a place you do not want to get arrested in.

Right. But I live only five blocks north (straight up an extremely steep hill) from the "Over the Rhine" neighborhood.

The "Rhine," by the way, was the long-defunct Miami Canal, which once separated downtown Cincinnati from the also long-defunct German-American residential neighboirhood to the immediate north. (There are still some very faded German signs on a few of the older buildings.)

P. S. I know I'm being picayune, but that's "Newport" and not "New Port."
 
Dingo667 said:
The total of deaths from using cannabis however is zero.

From www.bbc.co.uk
Following the life sentencing of Thomas Palmer for murdering two of his friends we ask can cannabis lead to murder?
The 20-year-old was a heavy skunk smoker when he stabbed Steven Bayliss and Nuttawut Nadauld to death with a hunting knife.

Months before the killings the court heard he was having hallucinations and panic attacks. :cry:
 
TheBoggart said:
Dingo667 said:
The total of deaths from using cannabis however is zero.

From www.bbc.co.uk
Following the life sentencing of Thomas Palmer for murdering two of his friends we ask can cannabis lead to murder?
The 20-year-old was a heavy skunk smoker when he stabbed Steven Bayliss and Nuttawut Nadauld to death with a hunting knife.

Months before the killings the court heard he was having hallucinations and panic attacks. :cry:
Good point. I still think that alcohol and tobacco related deaths probably edge slightly ahead, statistically speaking, though.
 
TheBoggart said:
Dingo667 said:
The total of deaths from using cannabis however is zero.

From www.bbc.co.uk
Following the life sentencing of Thomas Palmer for murdering two of his friends we ask can cannabis lead to murder?
The 20-year-old was a heavy skunk smoker when he stabbed Steven Bayliss and Nuttawut Nadauld to death with a hunting knife.

Months before the killings the court heard he was having hallucinations and panic attacks. :cry:

He sounds as if he was suffering from schizophrenia. Of course coupling a serious mental illness with cannabis "might" lead to some disaster. However coupling schizophrenia with religion or guns "might" have exactly the same effect.

Don't blame cannabis. Cannabis is a plant, a herb and yes if consumed or smoked will have an effect on the brain.
Cars are just cars, if driven, they will have an effect on you.
If you take cannabis sensibly [i.e make it legal and stick health warnings inside, like you do with prescription drugs] NOTHING will happen apart from you feeling nice. Overdo it and [like anything else in the world, the effects could be negative, especially if you have an underlying problem].

Drive a car in anger, drive a car whilst arguing and you could end up not only killing yourself but others as well. As a matter of FACT there are 100% more road deaths than direct deaths from consuming cannabis.
I don't hear all you goody-two-shoes trying to ban cars!

Why not? They are deadly, more deadly than even alcohol or fags. You happily give your kid a car for its birthday but you wouldn't give it cannabis. Well here is news, if I had a kid I'd give it cannabis and not a car as the chance of him/her dying are drastically reduced.

If you have a kid with an uderlying mental problem [i.e schizophrenia], the chances that driving a car might lead to an accident are elevated.

See what I'm trying to say?
Its not the object that is at fault here, its the person who uses it. Don't demonise cannabis, demonise the fact that it is illegal and your kids have to get it from the most dodgy people, cut with crap [sometimes], without being able to come to you for advise if it makes them feel funny or scared.
Either ban everything that is dangerous to kids or wake up to the fact that cannabis isn't the EVIL a lot of uneducated people make it out to be.
 
Dingo667 said:
TheBoggart said:
Dingo667 said:
The total of deaths from using cannabis however is zero.

From www.bbc.co.uk
Following the life sentencing of Thomas Palmer for murdering two of his friends we ask can cannabis lead to murder?
The 20-year-old was a heavy skunk smoker when he stabbed Steven Bayliss and Nuttawut Nadauld to death with a hunting knife.

Months before the killings the court heard he was having hallucinations and panic attacks. :cry:

He sounds as if he was suffering from schizophrenia. Of course coupling a serious mental illness with cannabis "might" lead to some disaster. However coupling schizophrenia with religion or guns "might" have exactly the same effect.

Don't blame cannabis. Cannabis is a plant, a herb and yes if consumed or smoked will have an effect on the brain.
Cars are just cars, if driven, they will have an effect on you.
If you take cannabis sensibly [i.e make it legal and stick health warnings inside, like you do with prescription drugs] NOTHING will happen apart from you feeling nice. Overdo it and [like anything else in the world, the effects could be negative, especially if you have an underlying problem].

Drive a car in anger, drive a car whilst arguing and you could end up not only killing yourself but others as well. As a matter of FACT there are 100% more road deaths than direct deaths from consuming cannabis.
I don't hear all you goody-two-shoes trying to ban cars!

Why not? They are deadly, more deadly than even alcohol or fags. You happily give your kid a car for its birthday but you wouldn't give it cannabis. Well here is news, if I had a kid I'd give it cannabis and not a car as the chance of him/her dying are drastically reduced.

If you have a kid with an uderlying mental problem [i.e schizophrenia], the chances that driving a car might lead to an accident are elevated.

See what I'm trying to say?
Its not the object that is at fault here, its the person who uses it. Don't demonise cannabis, demonise the fact that it is illegal and your kids have to get it from the most dodgy people, cut with crap [sometimes], without being able to come to you for advise if it makes them feel funny or scared.
Either ban everything that is dangerous to kids or wake up to the fact that cannabis isn't the EVIL a lot of uneducated people make it out to be.

Hear hear! I am in total agreement.

Also, if this guy was a "heavy skunk smoker", are we really expected to believe that he could be arsed to kill anyone?

Unless they had the last KitKat Chunky.
 
I'm not sure completely which side of the argument I'm on but cannabis is absolutely NOT completely harmless. It's carcinogenic (more than tobacco apparently) and can lead to hallucinations and can exacerbate schizophrenia. It doesn't matter how legal and controlled you make it it will still have these effects. I won't attempt to decide if it's better or worse than tobacco or alcohol etc but it's not 100% safe.
 
I can´t say I have heard this, should it be more carcinogenic by weight? One thing to consider is I doubt even a heavy cannabis user would go through forty spliffs a day, whereas finding someone who smokes forty cigarettes a day could be done just walking down the high street.

I´m worried by the "three strikes and you´re out" thing. For one thing, why is it three strikes? Did they really decide to put a catchy baseball derived name over looking at possible risks and consequences of crimes?
 
I'm not sure completely which side of the argument I'm on but cannabis is absolutely NOT completely harmless. It's carcinogenic (more than tobacco apparently)

Well, the jury's still out on this one as well. Some studies show no increased risk of lung cancer from cannabis smoking.

Most stoners roll their joints with tobacco anyway and/or smoke cigarettes as well so it's hard to determine what causes the problems.

I do agree that cannabis can affect people's mental state, and I have seen it; however I do wonder on the cause and effect here. Most of the people I know who have problems with it already suffer from anxiety/depression etc. People who are generally in good mental health don't seem to have a problem. It may be that those with mental health problems are more likely to abuse drugs and alcohol as well.

The "skunk is 25 times stronger than in the 70s!" stories are becoming increasingly tiresome and remind me of the reefer madness hysteria of the 50s.
 
Nothing in this world is completely harmless. Not even butter :shock:

Apparently 300 people a year die by putting their trousers on!!!

As a herb cannabis might also fall into the same dangerous league as vegetables, which are full of dioxins. All of which are highly carcinogenic and caused by environmental pollution. I have personally tested many food products for these contaminants and don't want to alarm you but really nothing is "safe".

However there are things less dangerous than others in this world and I have to keep my stance that cannabis is one of them. Especially when cooked with instead of smoked. Actually it isn't only less dangerous but has also many beneficial properties.

Oh yeah, last but not least Paracetamol. Overdosing only once, with one tablet can lead to kidney failiure yet most anti-cannabis people are happy to take them...HYPOCRITES!
 
I was going to mention paracetamol actually. It probably (although I have no figures to back this up) kills more people than cannabis, heroin, E etc and yet it's an OTC drug taken by loads of people including children.

The laws are full of hypocrisies and people react more to media scare stories than facts.
 
33 years ago I had a really, really, really bad trip on plain old cannabis, bad enough that I've never tried it since.

No, this was NOT adulterated or poisoned stuff. I smoked it with a group of friends I trusted implicity (and still do all these years later) and the others were not in the least negatively affected.
 
Greetings,

The "Rhine," by the way, was the long-defunct Miami Canal, which once separated downtown Cincinnati from the also long-defunct German-American residential neighboirhood to the immediate north. (There are still some very faded German signs on a few of the older buildings.)
Not to be picky but...... The "Rhine" refers to the Ohio river which is of course south of the old neighborhood. The canal you mention was the old Erie-Ohio canal which at one time connected the great lake Erie to the Ohio river. Its channel became Central parkway. Now beneath the parkway is a never used subway tunnel.....

The laws are full of hypocrisies and people react more to media scare stories than facts

I think that about sums it up, hypocrisies.
I have not met many people who practice what they preach. The debate over reefer will last quite a bit longer as long as we have people that are ignorant of what it does to your thinking process. Other than running afowl of the law, I have never seen reefer ruin anyones life. The same cannot be said for many legal drugs. I have never seen anyone have a "trip" , let alone a bad one, on reefer. As long as the courts are in the hands of the elite we will see stories of perverted justice.
I just noticed I am almost late for a meeting..........

PEACE!
=^..^=217
 
BuckeyeJones said:
Not to be picky but...... The "Rhine" refers to the Ohio river which is of course south of the old neighborhood. The canal you mention was the old Erie-Ohio canal which at one time connected the great lake Erie to the Ohio river. Its channel became Central parkway.

I may have gotten the name of the Canal incorrect, but the "Rhine" refers to the Canal and NOT to the Ohio River. "Over the Rhine" has NEVER referred to downtown Cincinnati, but rather to the area immediately to the north of that, on the other side of the Canal. At least that's what I've learned from family traditions, in school, and from both newspaper articles and books on the neighborhood.

Now beneath the parkway is a never used subway tunnel.....

There's been talk quite recently about actually finishing the subway, all these 80-plus years after its abandonment. It was rampant financial corruption which doomed the subway, not physical infeasibility. (The subway debacle lead directly to the creation of the City Manager form of government, also right here in Cincy.)
 
The Guardian on Saturdays has an entertaining column called "Bad Science". Yesterday it dealt with the claim that cannabis is x times stronger than it was in the 70s.

It seems that the proponents of this argument are being rather selective with their data. Studies from the 70s showed that street cannabis was of wildly different strengths (the THC content varied from about 0.2% to 17%). Cannabis today shows a similar variation in strength.

So in fact there is no truth to this claim at all and yet it is constantly repeated as though it were gospel.
 
The first time I ever tried marijuana (there were only three or four times in total) I was actually given, instead, Turkish hashish that was being held back for a rainy day.

I was the rainy day.

And, no, this wasn't the bad trip I mentioned here the other day.

It was quite nice in fact.
 
might as well drop this in here as it seems pertinent now... must admit that i never realised until recently that cocaine was ~that~ dangerous... and i'm surprised how low ketamine comes on the table... seeing people on it a couple of times has been enough for me to chalk it up as a major no-no:

Scientists want new drug rankings

The drug classification system in the UK is not "fit for purpose" and should be scrapped, scientists have said.

They have drawn up an alternative system which they argue more accurately reflects the harm that drugs do.

The new ranking system places alcohol and tobacco in the upper half of the league table, ahead of cannabis and several Class A drugs such as ecstasy.

The study, published in The Lancet, has been welcomed by a team reviewing drug research for the government.

The Academy of Medical Sciences group plans to put its recommendations to ministers in the autumn.

Suggested rating of drugs according to harm done

A new commission is also due to undertake a three-year review of general government drug policy.

The new system has been developed by a team led by Professor David Nutt, from the University of Bristol, and Professor Colin Blakemore, chief executive of the Medical Research Council.


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I would say that on balance, many 'illegal' drugs are less harmful than the two 'legal' drugs available
Chris, Shropshire

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It assesses drugs on the harm they do to the individual, to society and whether or not they induce dependence.

A panel of experts were asked to rate 20 different drugs on nine individual categories, which were combined to produce an overall estimate of harm.

In order to provide familiar benchmarks, five legal drugs, including tobacco and alcohol were included in the assessment. Alcohol was rated the fifth most dangerous substance, and tobacco ninth.

Heroin was rated as the most dangerous drug, followed by cocaine and barbiturates. Ecstasy, however, rated only 18th, while cannabis was 11th.

Arbitrary ranking


CURRENT DRUG CLASSIFICATION
Class A
Cocaine/crack
Heroin
Ecstasy
LSD
Magic mushrooms
Crystal meth (pending)
Class A/B
Amphetamines
Class C
Cannabis
Ketamine

The researchers said the current ABC system was too arbitrary, and failed to give specific information about the relative risks of each drug.

It also gave too much importance to unusual reactions, which would only affect a tiny number of users.

Professor Nutt said people were not deterred by scare messages, which simply served to undermine trust in warnings about the danger of drugs.

He said: "The current system is not fit for purpose. Let's treat people as adults. We should have a much more considered debate how we deal with dangerous drugs."

He highlighted the fact that one person a week in the UK dies from alcohol poisoning, while less than 10 deaths a year are linked to ecstasy use.

Professor Blakemore said it was clear that current drugs' policies were not working.

"We face a huge problem. Illegal substances have never been more easily available, or more widely abused."

He said the beauty of the new system, unlike the current version, was that it could easily be updated to reflect new research.

Professor Leslie Iversen, a member of the Academy of Medical Sciences group considering drug policy, said the new system was a "landmark paper".

He said: "It is a real step towards evidence-based classification of drugs."

Professor Iversen said the fact that 500,000 young people routinely took ecstasy every weekend proved that current drug policy was in need of reform.

Home Office Minister Vernon Coaker said: "We have no intention of reviewing the drug classification system.

"Our priority is harm reduction and to achieve this we focus on enforcement, education and treatment."

He said there had been "unparalleled investment" of £7.5 billion since 1998, which had contributed to a 21% reduction in overall drug misuse in the last nine years and a fall of 20% in drug related crime since 2004.

But he added: "The government is not complacent and will continue to work with all of our partners to build on this progress."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/6474053.stm
 
admit that i never realised until recently that cocaine was ~that~ dangerous

My main issue with coke is that it turns people into unbearable arseholes.
 
Quake42 said:
admit that i never realised until recently that cocaine was ~that~ dangerous

My main issue with coke is that it turns people into unbearable arseholes.
That and it's ridiculously expensive. And rubbish.
 
CarlosTheDJ said:
...if this guy was a "heavy skunk smoker", are we really expected to believe that he could be arsed to kill anyone?
I imagine he was as passive as hell when he was actually smoking it, but when he wasn't stoned it could be a different matter. I did a fair bit of dope when I was in my late teens and early twenties, as did most of my social set, but one of us did get hooked to the point that he couldn't function without a spliff, spending his waking hours quietly wrecked, and during a two month, virtually-total famine courtesy of the Avon and Somerset Constabulary he became paranoid, jumpy, humourless and utterly different from the easy-going bloke we'd all known for years. It did alter his personality quite seriously, both on and off the stuff: luckily, over time he cleaned up his act a lot, and within a year or two he was back to his old, pre-dope self. I quit the weed a while before skunk really came into vogue, but friends who still indulge say that the strength really varies hugely from batch to batch (in fact, most avoid skunk if they can help it as you really don't know what you're going to get.)
 
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