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The Dogon & The Sirius Mystery

Gemaki

Gone But Not Forgotten
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(This post and the immediately following posts have been excerpted from another thread to serve as the starter for a thread dedicated to the Dogon people, their beliefs, and Fortean relevance.)

...I was wondering if anyone else knew of the Babylonian account of Oannes, spiritual guides who came here to help us. There are two other accounts of these same Instructors, the Dogon claim their astronomical knowledge was given to them by the Nommos ...

NOTE:
The Nommo or Nummo are primordial ancestral spirits in Dogon religion and cosmogony (sometimes referred to as demi deities) venerated by the Dogon people of Mali. The word Nommos is derived from a Dogon word meaning "to make one drink." Nommos are usually described as amphibious, hermaphroditic, fish-like creatures. Folk art depictions of Nommos show creatures with humanoid upper torsos, legs/feet, and a fish-like lower torso and tail. Nommos are also referred to as “Masters of the Water”, “the Monitors”, and "the Teachers”. Nommo can be a proper name of an individual or can refer to the group of spirits as a whole.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nommo
 
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Regarding the Dogon tribe, what is said about them and their beliefs comes from the rather infamous book 'The Sirius Mystery'. Serious doubt has been cast on any of the claims made by this book. As for Nommo, etc. one should be careful not to ascribe literal translations to what religious texts are saying - these sorts of stories also gave rise to the whole thing about Ezekiel seeing UFOs too. All of this sort of thing was made very popular due to Von Daniken and others claiming that mankind had been vistited by aliens in the past and that these aliens became the gods of ancient time. ...
 
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Those silly Dogon!

Who knew that a primitive African race of people could be such pranksters?! And trying to fool those poor scientists back in the 1930's, shame! They were probably so bored staring at their cave walls by then, they just had to have some fun! :D
 
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Here also is a website full of photographs of the Dogon. I looked eagerly through it to find any evidence of star fixation type stuff but couldn't find any. Beautiful architecture though. There are a LOT of photos but if anyone is keen enough, here it is. I didn't look through them all admittedly!

http://www.dogon-lobi.ch/dogonalbum.htm
 
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Kondoru said:
A Certain Astronomer named Carl Sagan devoted some time to the Ancient Astonauts Theory in his collabouration with I Shklovskii `Intelegent Life in the Universe` 1966 (before Von Daniken, you will note.) He spent the rest of his life trying to atone for this.
(Anyone of you who have read his novel `Contact` will know the sort of Aliens he was searching for...)
...

Just last night I was reading something interesting and which relates to Kondoru's Post:

SOURCE:
http://www.lunaranomalies.com/temple.htm
Link is dead. The MIA webpage can be accessed via the Wayback Machine:
https://web.archive.org/web/20061023013445/http://www.lunaranomalies.com/temple.htm


In 1976, Royal Archeological Fellow Robert Temple put forth a startling theory. He asserted that an evidently primitive African tribe, the Dogon, had substantial astronomical knowledge concerning the existence of a "heavy" hidden, companion star to Sirius. This book was greeted by critical acclaim and almost universal academic chagrin. Numerous NASA luminaries attacked Temple with what seemed far too much enthusiasm. As things developed, Temple was eventually vindicated by a number of astronomical observations.

...

In 1977 the BBC made a 90-minute television documentary special for their series Horizon, entitled 'The Case for Ancient Astronauts'. I [Temple] was contracted as a Researcher, which was my first television job. I was originally supposed to be the subject of the entire programme, but the producer, Graham Massey, became more interested in discrediting Erich von Daniken, so most of the programme was devoted to that. Graham did an incredible demolition job on von Daniken; I did not prepare that material, but worked only on my own subject matter. The last fifteen minutes of the programme were devoted to the Sirius Mystery, which Graham treated very fairly indeed, contrasting it as a 'respectable theory' with what he considered the nonsense of von Daniken. From the script, which I have, I see that the narration of the programme states of myself that 'He is an assiduous, careful, and extremely knowledgeable researcher.'

While the programme was being prepared, Graham kept getting phone calls from a stranger in America. Finally Graham told me about them. He said the man was ranting and saying 'you must not let Robert Temple on television'. (Also, it appeared that the man in question was available for an interview himself at anytime!) Graham told me: 'I told this annoying man that I am the producer of the programme and I make my own decisions about who appears in it and who doesn't, and would he please stop calling me all the time.' The man apparently kept mentioning that he worked for NASA, and Graham was doubly annoyed that there seemed to be the implication that the American authorities did not think I should receive media attention. The man was the same one who had phoned Arthur Clarke. NASA was never disassociated from this man's activities and attacks against me.

-------------

So who was this "annoying man" who was so frothingly determined to keep Robert Temple and the Sirius Mystery from getting on television? And who apparently had the full backing of NASA in his efforts?

Well, by agreement with Temple, we are not at liberty to disclose the "annoying man's" name. We are however, not above dropping the subtlest of hints as to his identity ...


carl3.jpg

So ask yourself, why was this "annoying man," supposedly such a paragon of strict empiricism and logical skepticism, so anxious to keep Temple from being heard? For the same reasons that the intelligence agencies were! Because Temple was not "on the team" and therefore not aware of the information release policy, he had to be kept from obtaining an audience at all costs. Again, is this the behavior of cool rationalists who have nothing to hide? ...
 
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Temple's 1976 contribution to the Dogon mythos was essentially to graft onto it the notion of a nuts-and-bolts encounter with aliens. He believed the diagramatic art of the tribe depicted the landing of an "Ark".

A Sudanese Sirius System was the title of a paper by the anthropologists Griaule & Dieterlen, published in 1950 and based on nearly twenty years of work. It described the long-held Dogon faith in a companion star to Sirius, a body unknown to astronomy until the twentieth century.

The story of mysterious men preventing the broadcast of certain material has cropped up twice today in different threads. The context of these interventions suggests that they are designed to add to the value of some late and feeble contributors to their respective fields. :snore:
 
JamesWhitehead said:
Temple's 1976 contribution to the Dogon mythos was essentially to graft onto it the notion of a nuts-and-bolts encounter with aliens. He believed the diagramatic art of the tribe depicted the landing of an "Ark".

A Sudanese Sirius System was the title of a paper by the anthropologists Griaule & Dieterlen, published in 1950 and based on nearly twenty years of work. It described the long-held Dogon faith in a companion star to Sirius, a body unknown to astronomy until the twentieth century.

The story of mysterious men preventing the broadcast of certain material has cropped up twice today in different threads. The context of these interventions suggests that they are designed to add to the value of some late and feeble contributors to their respective fields. :snore:
This even better:
http://www.philipcoppens.com/dogonshame.html

Dogon shame

Did ancient gods from the Sirius star system visit an African tribe 5,000 years ago? New evidence deals a devastating blow to what was considered to be the best case for extraterrestrial visitation.

Philip Coppens


The story that the Dogon, a tribe in Mali, West Africa, had possessed in their antiquity extraordinary knowledge of the star system Sirius achieved worldwide publicity in 1976 through Robert Temple’s extraordinary book The Sirius Mystery. It was compellingly argued and became one of the most influential books of the 1970s ‘ancient astronauts’ genre.

Sirius is the brightest star in the sky, a star that became the marker of an important ancient Egyptian calendar, and a star that is said to be at the centre of beliefs held by the Freemasons. According to some cultures, Sirius is where the forefathers of the human race might have originated.
Temple claimed that the Dogon knew about two smaller stars that are closely related to Sirius – Sirius B and Sirius C. The mystery was how they had obtained this knowledge, as these companion stars cannot be seen by the unaided eye. Temple’s solution referred to legends of a mythical creature, the god Oannes, who might have been an extraterrestrial, described as descending to Earth from the stars to bring civilising wisdom to the Dogon forefathers.

In 1998, Temple republished the book with the subtitle “new scientific evidence of alien contact 5,000 years ago.” The book’s reputation was first dented in 1999, when Lynn Picknett and Clive Prince published The Stargate Conspiracy, in which they allege that Temple’s thinking had been heavily influenced by his mentor, Arthur M. Young. Young was a fervent believer in “the Council of Nine,” a mysterious group of channelled entities that claim to be the nine creator gods of ancient Egypt. ‘The Nine’ became part of the UFO and New Age mythology and many claim to be in contact with them. ‘The Nine’ also claim to be extraterrestrial beings from the star Sirius. In 1952, Young was one of nine people present during the “first contact” with the ‘Council’, an event initiated by Andrija Puharich, the man who brought Israeli spoonbender Uri Geller to America.

In 1965, Arthur Young gave Robert Temple a French article on the secret star lore of the Dogon, an article written by two French anthropologists Marcel Griaule and Germaine Dieterlen. In 1966, Temple – then aged 21 – became Secretary of Young’s Foundation for the Study of Consciousness. In 1967, Temple began work on the thesis that became The Sirius Mystery. As Picknett and Prince have been able to show, Temple’s arguments are often based on erroneous readings of encyclopædia entries and misrepresentations of ancient Egyptian mythology. They conclude that Temple was very keen to please his mentor, who believed in extraterrestrial beings from Sirius.

Though Temple’s work was challenged, at its core lay the original anthropological study of the Dogon by Griaule and Dieterlen, who describe the secret knowledge of Sirius B and Sirius C in their own book The Pale Fox. But now, in another recent publication – Ancient Mysteries by Peter James and Nick Thorpe – this “mystery” is also uncloaked as a hoax or a lie perpetrated by Griaule.

To recapitulate: Griaule claimed to have been initiated into the secret mysteries of the male Dogon, during which they allegedly told him of Sirius (sigu tolo in their language) and its two invisible companions. In the 1930s, when their research was carried out, Sirius B was known to have existed, even though it was only photographed in 1970. It was very unlikely that the Dogon had learned of this star’s existence from Westerners prior to the visit by Griaule and Dieterlen.

Griaule and Dieterlen first described their findings in an article published in French in 1950, but they included no comment about how extraordinary the Dogon knowledge of the ‘invisible companions’ was. This step was taken by others, particularly Temple, in the Sixties and Seventies. To quote Ancient Mysteries: “While Temple, following Griaule, assumes that to polo is the invisible star Sirius B, the Dogon themselves, as reported by Griaule, say something quite different.” To quote the Dogon: “When Digitaria (to polo) is close to Sirius, the latter becomes brighter; when it is at its most distant from Sirius, Digitaria gives off a twinkling effect, suggesting several stars to the observer.” This description of a very visible effect causes James and Thorpe to wonder – as anyone reading this should do – whether to polo is therefore an ordinary star near Sirius, not an invisible companion, as Griaule and Temple suggest.

The biggest challenge to Griaule, however, came from anthropologist Walter Van Beek. He points out that Griaule and Dieterlen stand alone in their claims about the Dogon secret knowledge. No other anthropologist supports their opinions. In 1991, Van Beek led a team of anthropologists to Mali and declared that they found absolutely no trace of the detailed Sirius lore reported by the French anthropologists. James and Thorpe understate the problem when they say “this is very worrying.” Griaule claimed that about 15 per cent of the Dogon tribe possessed this secret knowledge, but Van Beek could find no trace of it in the decade he spent with the Dogon. Van Beek actually spoke to some of Griaule’s original informants; he noted that “though they do speak about sigu tolo [interpreted by Griaule as their name for Sirius itself], they disagree completely with each other as to which star is meant; for some, it is an invisible star that should rise to announce the sigu [festival], for another it is Venus that, through a different position, appears as sigu tolo. All agree, however, that they learned about the star from Griaule.” Van Beek states that this creates a major problem for Griaule’s claims.

Although he was an anthropologist, Griaule was keenly interested in astronomy and had studied it in Paris. As James and Thorpe point out, he took star maps along with him on his field trips as a way of prompting his informants to divulge their knowledge of the stars. Griaule himself was aware of the discovery of Sirius B and in the 1920s – before he visited the Dogon – there were also unconfirmed sightings of Sirius C.
The Dogon were well aware of the brightest star in the sky but, as Van Beek learned, they do not call it sigu tolo, as Griaule claimed, but dana tolo. To quote James and Thorpe: “As for Sirius B, only Griaule’s informants had ever heard of it.” Was Griaule told by his informants what he wanted to believe; did he misinterpret the Dogon responses to his questions? Either way, the original purity of the Dogon-Sirius story is itself a myth as it is highly likely that Griaule contaminated their knowledge with his own.

With this, the Dogon mystery comes crashing down. For more then 20 years, The Sirius Mystery has influenced speculation about the possibility that our ‘forefathers’ came from the stars. In his 1998 revised edition, Temple was quick to point out the new discussions in scientific circles about the possible existence of Sirius C, which seemed to make Griaule’s claims even more spectacular and accurate. But it is apparent that Temple was not aware of Van Beek’s devastating research.

From the findings of Van Beek and the authors of Ancient Mysteries, it is clear that Griaule himself was responsible for the creation of a modern myth; one which, in retrospect, has created such an industry and near-religious belief that the scope and intensity of it can hardly be fathomed. Nigel Appleby – whose book Hall of the Gods was withdrawn from publication – has admitted to being tremendously influenced by Temple’s Sirius Mystery. He has written of Temple’s belief that present-day authorities are unwilling to set aside the blinkers of orthodoxy, unable to admit the validity of anything that lies outside their field or that offers a challenge to the status quo. Appleby also believes there exists a modern arrogance that cannot countenance the idea that ancient civilisations might have been scientifically superior.

But it seems that Griaule, a scientist, wanted to attribute to earlier civilisations more knowledge than they actually possessed. Credulous scholars, like Young and Temple, were taken in and, through them a whole generation has swallowed the false mythology of aliens from “the Dark Sirius Companion.”

This article appeared in Fortean Times.


:lol:
 
Well the classic - not so much for planets as star systems is the Dogons - a West African tribal people who seem to have folkloric knowledge of both the stars Sirius A and Sirius B (the latter of which has only recently been discovered but the existence of which was suggested by them).Their legends claim that a race of amphibians from this star system visited them in distant times past and taught them about irrigation, and so on.

The matter was given in-depth treatment by the American linguist Robert Temple in `The Sirius Mystery`(updated circa 1997) It is a dense and perplexing work, rather more convincing than Daniken's writings - but not above reproach in its excessive reliance on mathematical pattern finding.

If you do read it, do let me know what you think: I'd love to get someone else's take on it.
 
Note that the discovery of Sirius B (1866) occurred before the first accounts of the Dogon folk tales (post 1931), so the Dogons could have been (and probably were) influenced by this discovery.

I believe it is also true to say that in the present day most Dogons only know about this 'folk tale' from reading Temple's book or other works associated with it.
 
Note that the discovery of Sirius B (1866) occurred before the first accounts of the Dogon folk tales (post 1931), so the Dogons could have been (and probably were) influenced by this discovery.
You think that's likely? The Dogon international news service and libraries must have been good back then.
 
There were seventy years for the news of Sirius B to diffuse to Mali. But the news may have arrived shortly before the anthropologists, since the Dogon stories mentioned a third star - in the 1920s a third star was discovered by astronomers, but it was subsequently found to be a background star. That suggests that the meme only reached the Dogons just before the anthropologists did.
 
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There's an online copy of the FT article about the Dogon / Sirius thing a few years ago here: http://www.philipcoppens.com/dogonshame.html

The conclusion is that the whole thing is hogwash. Draw your own conclusions, but I'm afraid that I have to agree. The further you dig into it, the less substance you actually find.
 
http://www.philipcoppens.com/dogonshame.html
Dogon shame
Did ancient gods from the Sirius star system visit an African tribe 5,000 years ago? New evidence deals a devastating blow to what was considered to be the best case for extraterrestrial visitation. ...
This article appeared in Fortean Times.

The article appeared in Fortean Times #140 (November 2000).

It can be accessed via the Wayback Machine:
https://web.archive.org/web/20060108090956/http://www.forteantimes.com/articles/140_dogonshame.shtml
 
*bump*

Seems some dogs just won't stay dead:

"”PoTolo”, the Dogon name for Sirius B, consists of two syllables. ”Tolo” which means Star, and ”Po” which means the smallest seed they know. It is the seed of a captive variety of Digitaria Digitaria, and they use it to show little stars. The star is said to be “the smallest existing” or “heaviest star”. They say that his color is white. Dogon clearly described what modern astronomers would call a “white dwarf”. White dwarfs are the “smallest” class of visible stars. Because they are fallen stars, they are the “heaviest stars” and their color, as the Dogon told us, is very white."

https://medium.com/@piotrmak/have-amphibious-extraterrestrials-visited-the-dogons-94f945b41f26

I remember my excitement when I first became aware of the Dogon Sirius mystery back in those pre-internet days and fervently believed this was the proof we had been looking for. Alas, debunked in FT back in 2000 (see above) however it is still stated as fact from time to time as this article demonstrates.
 
Ah another Fortean Sacred Cow gone, at this rate there will be no more stories for the mystery compendiums that come out every few years (although the truth has never stopped them before)
 
The article appeared in Fortean Times #140 (November 2000).

It can be accessed via the Wayback Machine:
https://web.archive.org/web/20060108090956/http://www.forteantimes.com/articles/140_dogonshame.shtml
That final paragraph in the FT article is particularly damning:

"Griaule, a scientist, wanted to attribute to earlier civilisations more knowledge than they actually possessed"

I suspect that sentiment is quite a common one, which has driven not only this Dogon hoax, but may also be behind claims of ancient Egyptian light bulbs (not to mention helicopters), Baghdad batteries, Indian prehistoric Vimana (celestial flying machines), the Baigong pipes and countless others.
Condemning scientific orthodoxy for its inherently conservative nature is one thing. But without it, we would have no objective and authoritative measures with which to assess such extraordinary claims.
 
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