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Vietnamese King Arthur

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Anecdote coming up - I was chatting to one of my Vietnamese buddies and to my surprise he told me that they have a version of the King Arthur legend. It's basically a similar character, a peasant boy in Vietnam, who stumbles across a pond or lake. Within the said stretch of water, rather than a moistened bint dispensing scimitars a turtle guides him to an enchanted bow and arrow. With this bow and arrow which can cut down enemies at an incredible rate, he ultimately repels the evil invaders of his homeland and becomes King. Later in the tale, his daughter is betrothed to the son of the enemy King, however it is a trap and he is betrayed by his own daughter.

It fascinated me to hear of such a similar tale being told on the other side of the world. I asked if it was possible that this was imported rather than developed independently, but he didn't know, though assured me it had been passed down through the generations. If it wasn't imported, it seems to add more credence to Joseph Campbell's idea that all myths share the same elements.
 
Even following Joseph Cambel's theories that's still an awfully strong correlation.

Of course, it wouldn't get scary unless the boy had a round table for his followers to sit at, or he had a court wizard. Particularly if the wizard was welsh...

Cujo
 
Have you tried comparing it through the Stith Thompson motif index? I've found it helpful in pinpointing what is "the same" and what is "different".

I no longer have a copy (about a zillion volumes!) or I'd do it!

Kath
 
Second link doesn't seem to work, Kath....

I spoke to him again today about further details, and it turns out he was mistaken, and it wasn't a bow and arrow but a sword(!)
The legend is also tied to a real lake in north Vietnam, known as the Sword Lake because of its association with the myth. In addition, a giant, ancient turtle is also believed to live there, and over the generations there have been many reported sightings of this mythical beastie........ sound familiar.....?

The tale ends with the King killing his daughter, casting the sword back and jumping to his doom in the lake.
 
So we are looking at a kind of global underground/underwater/tunnels/magical weapons transport system?
 
http://oaks.nvg.org/ys4ra18.html

is better I think....

handy hint of the day - remember to copy and paste a relevant url not just some random broken link! :)

I find this categorisation useful but it is only a tool. Typologies are imposed on data rather than being inherant within it - this one is NW-european-centric IMO but nonetheless useful.

Really helps when dealing with large amounts of data and trying to talk with other people - although like most tools it quickly becomes jargin ridden...

"So we are looking at a kind of global underground/underwater/tunnels/magical weapons transport system?"

sigh, don't be daft! it's obviously going through the hollow earth and so there's only a short straight line journey. Some people.... always trying to complicate things LOL


Kath
 
The similarities between the above myth and King Arthur seemed to be too good to be true, so I asked about the possibility of some kind of cross-pollination, but seemingly this myth has been around for centuries in Vietnam, pre-dating colonisation (and I'm taking his word for it here). It fascinates me that this myth might have occurred independently. He also told me that they have a similar version of the tale of Hercules, which goes back a couple of thousand years.........

Thanks for the link, Kath, will check it out later.
 
It /feels/ right to me... she said in total defiance of all good practice and logic.

But then the more Jung I read, as opposed to what people say Jung said, the more I find myself accepting aspects of the archetype theories....


It's interesting it's a sword.

Swords tend to be invested with all sorts of intrinsic myth and magic don't hey - much more than any other personal weapon - not that spears, axes etc don't have their fair share...

But is there a culture where swords have been available where it hasn't assumed mythic aspects?


Kath
 
stonedoggy said:
"So we are looking at a kind of global underground/underwater/tunnels/magical weapons transport system?"

sigh, don't be daft! it's obviously going through the hollow earth and so there's only a short straight line journey. Some people.... always trying to complicate things LOL
Now hold on there, I think Breakfast might be onto something here. Why do all the Pixies/Fair Folk/Dwarves and so on choose to live underground and/or in/near water? They've got magic, live for a bloody long time, forge magic weapons and yet they run away underground without a fight, to avoid humans just because some of us are Xtians? (Or whatever the local rationalization is.) It makes no sense! UNLESS they're actually part of an international arms smuggling operation and are trying to avoid run-ins with law enforcement!
 
Oh I see.....! yes, I was being too narrow minded :)

can anyone think of examples of weapons turning up that are way outside the culture of the story?

so that rather than a REALLY good sword that sings and produces wine to order, you get a something that levels mountains and creates winter over the land?

Kath
 
Dark Detective said:
The legend is also tied to a real lake in north Vietnam, known as the Sword Lake because of its association with the myth. In addition, a giant, ancient turtle is also believed to live there, and over the generations there have been many reported sightings of this mythical beastie........ sound familiar.....?

At last! An article about Vietnam had made me wonder of they have a King Arthur Legend.

Here it is: http://www.wtop.com/index.php?nid=105&sid=139687

The story takes place in Hanoi, Vietnam at Ho Hoan Kiem Lake or "Lake of the Returned Sword," It tells of a King who used a magic sword to defeat Chinese invaders. After the victory, a giant turtle took the sword from the king and returned it to the gods. The King was King Le Loi and the tale is from the mid-15th century.

I had wanted to post it as a query at FTMB, but wasn't sure where to put it. Then Dark Detective supplied the opening.
 
I'm sure I've seen a dramatization of that in summit or other. Animated, I'm sure of it.
 
great link tulip tree!

and a good picture too....

Kath
 
Captain Buttock said:
Which frequently occurs at the park municipal toilet, so I hear.

:blush: Oh my gosh...I've been saluted by the Captain. I don't know whether to act like I didn't hear him or run away.

Thanks Kath! And Zygon, I think I saw a part of that cartoon as well... One of the cable channel runs a marathon of obscure children's movies during Christmas time, maybe I saw it then.
 
Well, hello Miss Tulip. ;) Is it cold outside or are you just pleased to see me?
:wow:
 
Thanks for the links, guys. This has turned into a really nice little topic - myths, monsters, archetypes, cryptozoology....
 
Captain Buttock said:
Well, hello Miss Tulip. ;) Is it cold outside or are you just pleased to see me?
:wow:
I knew someone was going to comment on my avatar one day, now I'm going to have to edit it. :eek:

It's art, Captain Buttock, Celtic Art. Obviously you're not grown up enough to appreciate it.... My eyes, Captain, look at my eyes when I'm talking to you! :mad:

Nice, Sally! And yet another link mentioning the king.

Dark Detective, have you asked your friends whether there are any more similarities? And is this really a 15th century tale, or like King Arthur, did it just take on additional popularity and new details.
 
I asked about other characters such as Merlin, Lancelot .etc. and didn't come up with anything. If there's a detailed version of the legend online that would be handy.
It's interesting that both the publishing of the tale Le Morte d'Arthur and the re-naming of the lake occur in the 15th C, which might suggest some kind of cross pollination, though I'm kind of hoping for some scholarly Arthur expert or SE Asia history expert to comment on this possibility. Written historical records are pretty scarce in Vietnam AFAIK, so I think the legend was pretty much related by word of mouth.
 
Found an article in the May 2000 issue of Crypto. :)
The issue's got loads of other stuff too.


And this is another legend about a turtle giving a king a magic bow - your source probably got the two legends mixed up.
Somewhere in the northern part of Viet Nam, meanwhile, there was a Kingdom known as Thuc ruled by the Thuc Dynasty. King Thuc Vuong had asked the southern King, Hung Vuong XVIII, for his daughter's hand in marriage. When the Thuc King's request was refused, he became enraged and a feud developed between the two family dynasties. One of King Thuc Vuong's nephews, Thuc Vuong Phan, profited from the degeneracy and debauchery of Hung Vuong XVIII to invade and conquer the Van Lang Kingdom in 257, B.C., thus ending the Hong Bang dynasty.

The combined kingdoms were then known as Au Lac, and were ruled by Phan, who assumed the name of An Duong Vuong.

King An Duong sought to protect his reign by constructing a spiral-shaped citadel, which was called Loa Thanh, or The City of Shell. In this endeavor, the King was said to have received the divine help of the Gold Turtle, who equipped the King with a supernatural cross bow which made him invincible. This weapon derived its magic from an attached claw offered by the Gold Turtle himself. The remaining ruins of The City of Shell still exist in the village of Co Loa, in Phuc-An province, North Viet Nam.
Found here.
 
Incidentally, the sites I've looked at seem to show variations in the legend.

Some say Le Thai To received the sword from the turtle, others that he found it in his village.

And at the end of the story, the turtle begged him to give it back, or snapped the end off it, or alternatively dragged it down back into the water.
 
stonedoggy said:
Oh I see.....! yes, I was being too narrow minded :)

can anyone think of examples of weapons turning up that are way outside the culture of the story?

so that rather than a REALLY good sword that sings and produces wine to order, you get a something that levels mountains and creates winter over the land?

Kath
IIRC there are descriptions of weapons used by "gods" in ancient Indian writings that are very similar to modern nuclear weapons. I am sure there has been a thread about it on here at some point - or search "ancient nuclear weapons" on google etc and see what you find.

As to King Arthur, it has some similarities to the hammer of Thor, which you had to be "worthy" as judged by the Norse gods to wield, and the person who could effectively gained the powers of/became the human incarnation of Thor (also IIRC... Marvel Comics could be corrupting my knowledge here tho ;) )
 
Last Updated: Monday, April 18, 2105 11:35:35 Vietnam (GMT+07)


Vietnam's "Professor Turtle" keeps lake legend alive


Meet "Professor Turtle," keeper of The Lake of the Returned Sword and its mysterious giant reptile.

Zoologist Ha Dinh Duc, one of Hanoi's best-known characters and world famous in his field for tracking the huge turtle living in the center of Vietnam's capital, is retiring soon.

But he is not giving up his quest for recognition of the turtle as a unique species after 15 years of following its movements in the murky green water.

"I call the turtle great-grandfather," said Duc, 65, who displays an obvious attachment to the 2-meter (6 ft 7 in) long and 1.1-meter (3 ft 7 in) wide endangered turtle he named after an emperor.

"Nobody knows the exact age of the turtle, but for me, it is maybe more than 600 years old."

The legend told over the years to Vietnamese children and now to an increasing number of tourists is that 15th century Emperor Le Loi used a magic heavenly sword to drive out Ming invaders from neighboring China.

A giant turtle emerged while Le Loi was boating on the lake and told him to return the sword to the Dragon King.

The weapon shot from its sheath into the mouth of the turtle, which disappeared underwater.

Thereafter, the body of water called Ho Luc Thuy (Green Water Lake) became known as Ho Hoan Kiem, or "The Lake of the Returned Sword" or "restored sword" in some translations.

In 2000, Duc named the giant turtle Rafetus Leloii. The zoologist gleefully says that his fellow Vietnamese call him "Professor Turtle".

Tourist draw

Now, more than a decade after Vietnam opened its doors to the outside world, thousands of tourists flock annually to the lake to learn about the legend and perhaps catch a glimpse of the "monster" turtle estimated to weigh about 200 kg (440 lb).

Most travelers have to settle for visiting a temple on the lake that displays a preserved replica of one giant turtle found in the 1960s.

With tourism booming in Hanoi, it is not surprising that there have been more giant turtle sightings reported in recent years.

Five already this year, 27 in 2004 and 29 in 2003, compared with just nine between 1991 and 1993 - the years Duc first began campaigning to protect the endangered turtle and urban lake.

The slightly built, bespectacled professor records all reported sightings of Rafetus Leloii on a computer at his house in Hanoi. The room is filled with turtle books, photographs, videotapes and documents, some stacked untidily on the floor.

He has about 300 photographs of the turtle's activity on the lake, including images of its pudgy, human-sized head peeking above the surface. Duc's pictures show that the "monster" has a distinctive white spot on the back of its head.

Duc, who will retire this year from the College of Natural Sciences at Hanoi National University, does not know exactly why there have been more reported sightings. No one knows what the turtle eats, he said, but probably anything it can find.

Nor does Duc know whether the turtle is male or female or how it came to be in the lake, but he is convinced it is the largest freshwater turtle alive. There are larger marine turtles around the world.

One of a kind

"I think this is a very, very special species for Vietnam because there is only one," Duc said. Three of their kind appeared in the lake in the 1960s and all died.

"I have spent some time looking in lakes and rivers in Vietnam and I have not found any others."

Western turtle expert Douglas Hendrie and other scientists have written that there are other turtles of the same species in China.

World Conservation Union scientist Hendrie told an environmental conference in Vietnam last month that the giant turtle is thought to be one of six of its species remaining.

There are 10 other turtle species in the lake, Duc said. Just over a year ago, invasive red-eared sliders, native to the United States and kept as pets, appeared in the lake.

The species "eat everything" and were probably put there by people who were tired of keeping them as pets, Duc said.

All 28 turtle species found in Vietnam are listed as endangered by international conservationists.

Admired for their longevity and sometimes eaten as an aphrodisiac, turtles are considered a culinary delicacy in Vietnam and several other Asian countries.

A stew of tofu, banana and turtle, including the bones and shell, can cost as much as 100 USD in a Hanoi restaurant.

It seems unlikely that Rafetus Leloii will end up on anyone's dinner plate because of its near-sacred status in Vietnam, but it may die before all of the mysteries of its existence are known.

-------------------------
(Source: Reuters)

Source
 
stonedog said:
Oh I see.....! yes, I was being too narrow minded :)

can anyone think of examples of weapons turning up that are way outside the culture of the story?

so that rather than a REALLY good sword that sings and produces wine to order, you get a something that levels mountains and creates winter over the land?
Kath

That's a bloody-well excessive magic sword! Just imagine if everyone had them? Carnage, utter carnage!
:D
 
"Nobody knows the exact age of the turtle, but for me, it is maybe more than 600 years old."
so how do you tell the age of a turtle, then? Is it just a case of sawing it in half and counting the rings? :lol:
 
Hundreds work to save Hanoi's legendary giant turtleRevered by the Vietnamese, the creature has been made ill by pollution, but Hanoians are now struggling to clean its lake

Hundreds of people are working round the clock to clean up a lake in the heart of Vietnam's capital in hopes of saving a rare, ailing giant turtle that is considered sacred.

Experts say pollution in Hanoi's Hoan Kiem lake is killing the giant freshwater turtle, which has a soft shell the size of a desk. It is one of the world's most endangered species: it is believed that there are only four in the world.

Teams of people are cleaning debris, pumping fresh water into the lake and building an artificial island to serve as a "turtle hospital". The rescuers may try to net it for the first time as part of the effort.

The Hoan Kiem turtle is rooted in Vietnamese folklore, and some believe the creature that lives in the lake today is the same mythical turtle that helped a Vietnamese king fend off the Chinese nearly six centuries ago.

The turtle in Hanoi's lake swims alone and in the past has been glimpsed only rarely, sticking its neck out of the water, but it has recently surfaced much more frequently, alarming the public with glimpses of raw open wounds on its head and legs.

Meetings were called, a council was established and 10 government agencies were put to work to try to save it.

"For the Vietnamese, the Hoan Kiem lake turtle is the most sacred thing," said retired state employee Nguyen Thi Xuan, 63, who had travelled from a suburban district to try to get a glimpse. "He has helped the Vietnamese to defeat foreign invaders and helped the country to have peace. I hope he will live for ever."

The lake, which is one mile (1.6km) long, is a city landmark, with its curved red bridge leading to a temple on a tiny island. Weeping willows and other leafy trees shade the pavement on the road that circles the water. It is a popular site for tourists and Hanoians to exercise and relax.

But all sorts of rubbish have been thrown into it, including bricks, concrete, plastic bags and raw sewage. It is not uncommon to see men urinating directly into the murky water.

The pollution is slowly killing the Hoan Kiem turtle, a Vietnamese scientist said.

"I believe the injuries were caused by sharp edges from debris in the lake," said associate professor Ha Dinh Duc, who has studied the lone turtle for 20 years and considers himself its caretaker. "The poor quality of the water also makes the conditions unbearable for the turtle."

Duc said small red-eared turtles, which are popular pets, have also been released into the lake. They are believed to be feeding on the giant turtle's festering wounds, which may be worsening the infection.

The turtle rescue team hopes to coax it on to land and treat the wounds.

Sandbags have been built up to create a small island for it to emerge. But if it does not crawl on to the platform by itself, a net will be used to capture it.

No one knows the turtle's age or sex, but scientists say it is probably the most endangered freshwater turtle species in the world. It weighs about 200kg and its shell is 1.8m long and 1.2m wide.
Source
 
Ailing Vietnamese giant turtle captured
An ailing giant turtle considered sacred by many Vietnamese has been captured in a lake in central Hanoi by rescuers who hope to give it medical attention.
6:42PM BST 03 Apr 2011

Thousands of onlookers cheered at Hoan Kiem Lake as the mammoth creature was pulled in after escaping capture last month.
It took 50 workers two hours to net the turtle and lure into a cage which was then transported by boat to a small island that was recently expanded and equipped with a small pond, known as the "turtle hospital," said Ha Dinh Duc, who has studied the creature for 20 years and considers himself its caretaker.

He said it will be kept on the island for medical treatment, but it is unclear how long it will take. Concerns mounted after the turtle was spotted with lesions on its head and shell, prompting the government to form committees and employ hundreds of workers to frantically clean debris and pollution from the lake.

The turtle is estimated to weigh about 440 pounds and is one of the world's most endangered freshwater turtles. There is one other turtle of the same species, known as Rafeteus swinhoei, in Vietnam and two others in a Chinese zoo. But its value to the nation has nothing to do with how rare it is.

Scientists say it is at least 80 years old, but many Vietnamese believe, as legend has it, that it is the same mythical creature said to have helped Vietnamese King Le Loi fend off the Chinese nearly six centuries ago.
After the victory, the king was said to be boating on the lake when a giant golden turtle rose to the surface and snatched the sword with its mouth before plunging deep into the water to return it to its divine owners.
Hoan Kiem Lake, which serves as the capital's centerpiece, translates as "Lake of the Returned Sword."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstop ... tured.html
 
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