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Why Christians Need Rabbis

A

Anonymous

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My first day here has been pleasant. Seems like a nice place to roost for a bit.

Why Christians Need Rabbis

I am a Hassidic Jew. I am also by choice an unordained Rabbi. By nature I like to get to the root of matters when studying things... which is why I spent almost 7 years at a Rabbi college in
Jerusalem in my early thirties.

For 2,000 years appoximately Christians have been educated to believe that Jesus was Judaism's 1) God in the flesh and/or 2) son of God and/or 3) Messiah.

For 2,000 years Rabbis have publicly disagreed stating that such beliefs have no basis in the Torah, the 5 Books of Moses as well as the Talmud and Rabbinic literature.

Woven into Christianity is the demonization of Rabbis (Pharisees).
Any revolution requires the demonization of the prior authorities.

In this case however that demonization has denied good Christians even the possibility of examining Sacred Jewish writings which have a major bearing on the axioms of Christianity.

For example...when I went to Jerusalem the first question I asked my mentors was "Why did the Rabbis reject Jesus as Judaism's Messiah?" Is that not a fair and honest question? Is that not a question any and every Christian should ask if for no other purpose than intellectual honesty?

Instead of an open debate about that valid question the Church avoided any such honest inquiry via demonization of the Rabbis. That alone would have raised a red flag were I born a Christian. But Christians accept that slanderous misportrayal as "Gospel."

All matters of avoiding or misportraying truth have their price tag.

To kick this off I give you this link below to paruse at your leisure. Enjoy and let the questions, comments or rebuttals flow freely. I am not easily offended.

http://communities.msn.com/MessiahWatchInternational/home.htm

Rabbi Moshe Yess
 
Ah, it's one of those websites.

Let's read some quotes:

"...Just as America alone decides who its President will be and not China nor Ethiopa... similarly Judaism alone will select its own King Messiah. The bottom line is that Jesus wasn't. Rabbi M.M. Schneerson is."

"...These Rabbis explain in their excited manner that the Persian Gulf War was described in precise detail in Sacred Jewish texts as being the event which occurs as the identity of Judaism's King Messiah is revealed. Additionally they explain that the impact of the Shoemaker- Levy 9 asteroid into Jupiter in 1994 was also foretold in the Kaballa, Judaism's Sacred Book of Mysticism, as the heavenly sign of King Messiah's imminent arrival."

"...Rabbi Menachem Mendel Schneerson, identified himself as Judaism's Final Redeemer during numerous public religious discourses in 1990 -92. Rabbi Schneerson passed away in 1994. His passing, however, has not deterred these Rabbis from continuing to make their challenging proclamations. Kaballistic sources teach that Judaism's King Messiah will be revealed, become known to but a few amongst the world, and will later reappear to complete his tasks after his perceived passing."

All this and an Art Bell appearance, to boot. It has to be legit. :rolleyes:

All that's missing is a Jack Chick-style series of comic mini-manifestos.
 
From time to time I have had the great misfortune to encounter evangelical Christian literature that set out to convert Jews to Christianity.
Without exception it was crass, simplistic polemic that traded in generalisations and stereotypes and served only to insult the faith and intelligence of the intended audience and bring all Christians into disrepute by association.
To find such material coming back the other way is more depressing than I can adequately articulate...

No response required as this is not a thread I intend to revisit.
 
No offence ment Rabbi, but for God's chosen people you Jews have had some real shitty luck. As part of an equally unlucky race of the Irish, converting to Judaism would probably finish me off.
Q. What did the Rabbi say about circumision.
A. The hours are long but you get regular tips.
 
I thought the Pharisees were mostly placed to support Herod, who was effectively a 'puppet' king in the pocket of the occupying Roman forces there, and were not strictly Aaronic in origin. Of course my memory could be wron on that point.

However, the basic message of the christian text: -

Try to be nice
Help other people, irrespective of gain or their ethnicity
Don't harm anyone else

Seems not to require much of a hierachy of any sort, be it Preistly or Rabbinical.

Of course, that's just my reading of it, and, looking at the history of the the Christian church since its inception through to the present, is substantially wrong, by consensus of those who follow the religion in a church going sense :)


8¬)
 
Dear Harlequin et al,

If you read Deuteronomy 17: 9-13 you will see that God empowered Priests and Judges (all of whom were Torah scholars) to decide the Law. The Law was not up for democratic vote or selective observance.

Jesus was a Jew who prayed to God in a synagogue. (Why some Christians pray to Jesus in a church escapes me.) As a Jew he was bound by the Deuteronomy Law I cited above to obey the Torah rulings of the Pharisees.

Not only did he place himself above the authority of the Pharisees and thereafter demonize them (Generation of vipers) but he declared his deityhood with "I and the Father are one" which is blasphemy in Jewish Law and which got him handed to the Romans for execution.

The Jews were displaced from their land by conquest. Christianity attempted to displace Jews from their Chosen status with God by claiming that Christians were the "new" chosen.

The Covenent with Abraham was eternal and not up for 2nd party transfer.

Anything of moral value in the Gospels can be found originally in the Psalms of David. No new insights to serving God came out of Christianity. To the contrary Christianity innovated a fast food salvation via belief alone in Jesus.... which of course has no validity for either Christian or Jew or anyone else according Jewish Law. Sins are atoned through sincere repentence, Yom Kippur and Temple sacrifices.

Were Christianity a self-standing religion I would have no quarrel with it. But no!...it attempts to legitimize itself as Divinely valid from the very Judaism which rejected Jesus on Torah Legal grounds. Christianity misportrayed and attempted to redefine Judaism for mass consumption. Judaism does not seek converts. Gentiles get the same quality of Heaven as Jews do by observing the 7 laws of Noah.

Being "Chosen" to protect the Law of Sinai has been no pleasant journey for the Jews as history repeatedly reveals.

One of the major reasons I am here at this forum is because something very profound is afoot. It is discussed at my website.

http://communities.msn.com/MessiahWatchInternational/home.htm

While most will scoff at what is there I give you my word that this situation has the highest credibilty threshold in Jewish history.

The lie of 2,00 years ago is about to unravel and millions will be deeply affected by it.


Rabbi Moshe Yess
 
Rabbi M. Yess said:
The lie of 2,000 years ago is about to unravel and millions will be deeply affected by it.
Click to expand...

Sorry, Charlie. If it hasn't happened by now, it's never going to happen.

And as for your mystical, esoteric Bible Code hogwash, check this out:

http://cs.anu.edu.au/people/bdm/dilugim/moby.html

It seems that hidden codes and messages in MOBY DICK predict the future, too! Hail Melville!
 
You might want to do something about that chip on your shoulder, mate.

Arguments such as yours have been the cause of more wars than just about anything else. By all means, you are entitled to your own opinions and beliefs, and although I may not agree with them, you have every right to them. But don't you DARE sit there, mate, and tell me you're right and I'm wrong. Bugger that.

You want a serious discussion, fine. You might want to check your 'facts' before spouting off, but again, that's your choice. However, if it's proselytes you're after, you're at the wrong party.

And for your information, Joseph of Arimathea was Sanhedrin. Nicodemus was a Pharisee and a member of the Sanhedrin. More than a cursory glance would show that if anyone was 'demonised' it was the Sadducees, not the Pharisees.
 
Rabbi,

I hope Passover goes well for you and yours...

To your point, I am familiar with Deuteronomy, and to be frank, it seems to me to be the guys who want to rule making the rules rather than any empirical wisdom from god.

Apropos Yeshua, chance are he'd be appalled at being worshiped as a God, and that James had managed to screw up what was effectively a jewish political movement into the apocrypha that Paul instituted (I refer you to Corinthians and suggest you read between the lines about how James felt about Paul) And I would agree with you that what is practiced as Christianity today is not really an offshot of Judaeism, more the mystery cults of the Northern Medeteranian. In some respects the Holy Land back drop is akin to Lucas' 'Long ago in a Galaxy far, far, away...' backdrop for the Star Wars retelling of the universal myths of fall and redemption thru generations (Note: I am not trivialising the subject by using that similie, since Lucas was quite serious in his exploration of unviversal myth) Jesus was an historical character, but a lot of the symbolism employed is gleaned from a number of other myth cycles. Basically the Pauline idea of 'to a Jew,I am a Jew, a Greek; a Greek...'


8¬)
 
Originally posted by harlequin
And I would agree with you that what is practiced as Christianity today is not really an offshot of Judaeism, more the mystery cults of the Northern Medeteranian.


8¬)
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Isn't there a big connection between Christianity and the Osirian Myster cults - the virgin/whore archtypes (Virgin Mary and Mary Magdalen), the death and resurrection of the Sun King.
Also seems to have a big cross over with Norse mythology - Odin hanging on a tree for nine days before healing himself/the world.
I think one of the interesting things about Christanity, at least Catholic Christianity, is that it is not monothesic at all. There are a host of lesser gods (saints), the cult of the Virgin Mary, even the teaching of the Trinity.
 
Oh, yes, theres a goodly amount of the old Osirion myths in the ceremonies of Christianity... To be honest, there is very little original about the religion

8¬)
 
there's little original about any religion! All religions seek to justify themselves by using past religions as either an orthodoxy which is being developed or a heresy which must be rectified. This is done in a variety of ways, some rewrite old traditions to incorporate new messages (ie. Daniel and Ezekiel being used as justification for J's godhood - ie.e they predicted him), some making up traditions that never existed in the original (cf. most of catholic rites), some absorb new thought into theological thinking (hinduisms acceptance of christ as a facet of Krishna), etc. Reliogn is a reflection of man's (sorry

The idea of the messiah is a carrot dangled in front of the reliious masses, and has been the same since organised religion began. It is the same as heaven and hell, virtue and sin and all other imposed moralities and world views. They are there to enforce societal cohesion, to ratify power structures and to subdue dissent. The concept that a messiah will come (or come again) is used to convince the masses to conform. No religious person would want their cherished saviour to come and then witness bad behaviour, heterodoxy or irreverence in their own flock.
 
dot23 said:
They are there to enforce societal cohesion, to ratify power structures and to subdue dissent.
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I think that's a little simplistic, Dot. Catholicsm in South and Central American played an important part in social reforms during the 1970's and 1980's, hence liberation theology. Also Christianity provided the moral and ethical bedrock for Martin Luther King's attack on segeragation in the USA, as did Christianity in abolishing slavery in the USA. Ditto the Church in Poland during the 1980's, when trade unionists took on the USSR.
The Quakers have a nobel history of civil disobidence, and most of the progressive working class movements in England had their basis in religious movements.
 
From memory, the Liberation Theologians of South America were NOT the flavour of the month with the central Catholic Church, who were merrily raising funds among some of the largest monsters this planet had produced outside of the Third Reich (cf Hell's Angel ) There agian, the Vatican has never been that particular who it got into bed with.

I've always had an admiration for Quakers, who by and large seem to be excellent subersives, while still being by and large, endowed with a sense of humour.



8¬)
 
harlequin said:
I've always had an admiration for Quakers, who by and large seem to be excellent subersives, while still being by and large, endowed with a sense of humour.



8¬)
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I quite agree.
And their Snack-a-Jacks are nutritious, low-fat AND tasty! :D
(really really sorry, too much time on my hands, couldn't resist, please don't hate me)
 
Oh, yes, theres a goodly amount of the old Osirion myths in the ceremonies of Christianity... To be honest, there is very little original about the religion
Click to expand...

"If you are a Christian you do not have to believe that all the other religions are simply wrong all through. If you are an atheist you do have to believe that the main point in all the religions of the whole world is simply one huge mistake. If you are a Christian, you are free to think that all those religions, even the queerest ones, contain at least some hint of the truth. When I was an atheist I had to try to persuade myself that most of the human race have always been wrong about the question that mattered to them most; when I became a Christian I was able to take a more liberal view."
C.S. Lewis
 
The human race has a pretty impressive track record for being wrong, especially in large groups. I would refer Mr Lewis to Monsieur Voltaire... For those who can't/don't read sigs, I'll quote him from mine:-

"The only way to comprehend what mathematicians mean by Infinity is to contemplate the extent of human stupidity. "

Having said that, he had more of an axe to grind than I, since I've never been flogged by Jesuits!

8¬)
 
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