• We have updated the guidelines regarding posting political content: please see the stickied thread on Website Issues.

Wiping Churches Off The Map

rynner2

Gone But Not Forgotten
(ACCOUNT RETIRED)
Joined
Aug 7, 2001
Messages
54,631
A cross marks the spot
Simon Jenkins
Wiping churches off Britain's Ordnance Survey maps would be an act of cultural and topographical vandalism



Nothing is sacred — and that is official. The Ordnance Survey wishes that no significance any longer attaches to a “place of worship” or to a parish boundary. In future a church will appear on maps only if it has “navigational importance” and will not be indicated as a place of worship. When Alastair Campbell declared last month that, at new Labour, “we don’t do God”, he meant it. God is off the map, literally. As for civil parishes they are to be the territorial equivalent of “Here be Dragons”.
The proposal, on which the Ordnance Survey is now consulting, is a change in its Landranger and Explorer maps that beggars belief. Since time immemorial walkers have recognised as a local church the symbol of the circle or square with a cross on top. The “unsteepled chapel” is shown by a simple cross. Map-users of all sorts and faiths regard a church as more than a navigational aid. It is more than the topographical heart of a place, more than the sound of bells and evensong. A Gothic window, a bellcote, a chapel pediment, a scatter of tombs in a graveyard, are part of the social architecture of England.

According to the Ordnance Survey, cartography must keep abreast of these godless times. My medieval map of Cardigan Bay shows “monsters” where now lies Ireland. An early chart of the Humber depicts specific spires along the shore. Maps once indicated diocesan boundaries, pilgrims’ ways and hospices. Just as these symbols have vanished, however helpful or fascinating we may find them, so now must go “places of worship”. Worship is no longer politically correct.

In future church buildings would be singled out only where they have “towers, spires, domes or minarets” of “navigational importance”. In that case they would appear like a factory, mill or other prominent structure that might guide walkers. The bureaucratic pen has merged the sacred steeple with the satanic mill. Pugin’s “two hands in prayer ascending up to God” is no different from a laundry chimney. Ruskin and Morris must be howling from their graves.

John Prescott, in whose hands under Tony Blair this decision rests, intends to wipe from recognition not only Anglican and Roman Catholic churches which have no steeples. He would at the same time remove virtually all Nonconformist chapels. A correspondent, R. J. Dean, of Church Stretton in Shropshire, tells me that within ten miles of his home 29 churches will disappear from the Ordnance Survey map. He estimates that some 10,000 places of worship will no longer be recorded in England and Wales.

Nor is this part of some cleansing of the cartographic Augean stables. It is sheer discrimination. Roman villas are safe. So are medieval castles, police stations, post offices, “bunkhouses”, golf clubs, lavatories, swamps, mileposts, even pestilential wind turbines. All retain their unique symbols, but not places of worship. Betjeman once asked, “And must that plaintive bell in vain/ Plead out along the dripping lane? And must the building fall?” The answer is yes.

A particular gem of mine is the Norman chapel of Heath in Shropshire, below. It slumbers in a meadow overlooking the exquisite slopes of Corvedale, north of Ludlow. Its village vanished at the time of the Black Death, but somehow the ancient church survived. The Gothic age ignored it. The Reformation did no more than turn its rood screen into a rectory pew. A 17th-century vicar installed a reading window for a clerk. Otherwise nothing changed. The little settlement records the same seven farms and roughly 40 parishioners it had in the Middle Ages.

Heath church would be impossible to find were it not for the cross on the OS Landranger map, indicating a “place of worship without addition”, a phrase perfectly describing Heath. Under the proposal the church would be eliminated from the map not for any lack of holiness — it is not even redundant — but because the stingy Normans and careless Goths forgot to give it “a spire, dome or minaret”. They may have judged Holy Scripture navigation enough for the souls of Corvedale. But Mr Prescott, under whose fatwa these things are ordered, thinks otherwise.

In the House of Commons on March 10 Mr Prescott’s henchman, Tony McNulty, MP for satanic Harrow East, made one concession. Unsteepled churches would still appear on the map as black dots but “without reference to their religious or cultural significance”. They would be on a par with bungalows and cowsheds. The contempt is near incredible. The last time the Church was so insulted was when Thomas Cromwell dissolved the monasteries — and he had good reason. As for the ever-spineless Church of England, it has not, to my knowledge, even been consulted until this week.

The demotion of the glories of ecclesiastical architecture to “building with navigational feature” would reflect more than Whitehall’s atheism and cultural materialism. It would ignore the history and diversity of village England. Every visitor knows that no structure defines a settlement as does a church or chapel. It is still a place of local ceremony and ritual, the emotional as well as topographical heart of a community. “Where is the church?” is a standard map-user’s question. It is not the same as a factory, any more than a post office is a pub.

Everyone, churchgoer or not, respects these buildings as repositories of collective memory. Even churches without steeples are distinctive local buildings, far more than the golf club, the post office or the public convenience, to all of which the Ordnance Survey is to give symbolic precedence. To rub a church wall is to feel the texture of history. To visit a churchyard is to enjoy the tranquillity of place. To remove the category of church from the map of England treats a village or town as a mere agglomeration of housing units. It diminishes the nation’s history.

The disappearance of parishes, also under consultation, is no less sinister. Ordnance Survey parish boundaries have long caused walkers anguish. Years ago that agency’s inhouse sadists made the symbol for a parish boundary near indistinguishable from a footpath. Generations of walkers thus found themselves torn by brambles, jolted by electric fences, shot by bailiffs, drowned in torrents and lost over cliffs, when they thought they were using a legal footpath. They were in fact beating the bounds of St Magnus Magna and Piddleton Parva. (A simple solution would have been to print all paths in red or green, depending on status, and leave boundaries in black.)

The new Right to Roam is requiring a new boundary symbol. This is important if walkers are not to stray from public to private land within an owner’s property. This could surely be handled by the “access colour” of purple. Either way, parish boundaries are not trivial and their sacrifice is unnecessary. As Oliver Rackham pointed out in his History of the Countryside, pollarded oaks, yews and hedges have delineated parish borders throughout history. Their location is crucial to “reading the landscape” of rural England.

For local people the curtilage of a civil parish, community or town council is probably the most important boundary of all. It distinguishes a community from its neighbour. It is significant in local planning and conservation. Parish council membership is still, in terms of numbers, the most active participation in government in Britain. Eighty thousand people serve on 9,500 councils in England and Wales. This number is expanding and embraces by far the largest “independent” element in British politics. Parishes may seem distant and medieval to Whitehall and its mapmakers. Yet the extent of their remit has far more meaning locally than Mr Prescott’s precious parliamentary and European constituency boundaries.

Maps are always political. War, goes the saying, is “principally a question of maps”. The vaults of the British Library are stuffed with examples of statesmen putting maps to devious purpose. No French or US cartographer would dare eliminate the boundaries of a local commune or township as this Government is doing. There would be riots.

This attempt to depoliticise provincial Britain by manipulating its maps is reminiscent of Stalinism. It would strip local people of their collective identity and inherited culture. I am told that the shires are rising, the pews are in turmoil and even the Ordnance Survey is debating whether to side with its public or with Mr Prescott. A final decision was promised last month and has yet to emerge. We can only hope.
(Times online)
 
I'm sorry, did someone say "Daily Mail"? ;)

Churches should remain on maps, but only because spires, steeples and towers are easy to see over distances and act as excellent landmarks.
 
Looks to me like a "New Labour want us to eat our babies" sort of scoop.

OS will keep the landmarks because that is one of the reasons maps exist. They still have reference to Trig points even though they are no longer used. The isolated shurches such as the norman chapel at Heath will still be present as buildings and will probably have descriptive text applied
 
taras said:
Churches should remain on maps, but only because spires, steeples and towers are easy to see over distances and act as excellent landmarks.
Pubs would be much more useful, though. ;)
 
The empty quarter

Quite a few pubs are marked, out in the country-
more useful would be petrol stations or village shops...

I can't see the reason to include parish boundaries, though-
just more meaningless clutter...
although some places in Lincolnshire
(for instance)
could do with a bit more decoration- this square is almost completely empty.
 
I can fully understand the revulsion caused by the phrase "Churches wiped off the map" because of the emotional response to the percieved 'downgrading' of these buildings, but if you consider the primary function of these maps and the limitations on space on the map and the plethora of data that needs to be portrayed; some features have to go.
In the age of the internet no one travelling into an area need miss out on a fine Restoration chancel or Norman tower because the church was not on an OS map. If anything, in our GPSr equipped world, finding a church mosque or synagogue is easier than ever, take a look at http://www.multimap.uk
 
I'm sorry but if it's true then it is pure discrimination.
according to the last cencus over 70% of the british population discribe themselves as christians and while not all go to church regully, things like christenings, weddings and funarals don't tend to be done at home that often... also many people including agnostics do turn to their local vicars for advice and many public amenitys clubs and events are hosted in church halls for example my local church is where the winter survival (heating and insulation for old people and unimployed) has it's offices and runs operations from.
to say that churches are unimportant and just used for worship will be another nail in 'new' labours cofin and if they want a nice church service for it's funeral it can forget it :rolleyes:
 
I think this is very sad.

One of the pleasures of large-scale maps is that they document every little nook and cranny of an area - everything of importance to the community, no matter how small or seemingly insignificant.

I love visiting obscure churchyards (despite being an agnostic), ditto historic pubs, roman ruins and all the other things that clutter up maps.

Why should churches be singled out? This seems especially odd since our Tone is supposed to be a commited christian himself.

Jane.
 
AndroMan said:
Pubs would be much more useful, though. ;)

So I'm the only one here who navigates using the locations of record shops and bookstores...? (Just don't ask me for street names...) :nonplus:
 
Shameful - if true. Aside from matters of pure navigation, maps, in my eyes provide an invaluable historical record that stands on paper long after the physical landscape has changed. The more complete, therefore, the better. Books, the Internet etc. could also serve such a role, but it's the O.S.'s unmalleable nature and fine attention to detail that makes it irreplacable.

Perhaps New Labour don't do God, but this is a Protestant country with an established church that is granted exclusive constitutional status under law. Her Majesty (as in 'Her Majesty's Government') is head of this church. As such, the Anglican church is afforded special status over other faiths. Now, this may be right or wrong, but it's a fact nonetheless. If New Labour wants to amend the constitutional settlement, then they should be honest enough to tell us about it, not just snipe at the edges.

Don't think I believe the story anyway.
Can't imagine Blair endorsing this.
 
drjbrennan said:
I can fully understand the revulsion caused by the phrase "Churches wiped off the map" because of the emotional response to the percieved 'downgrading' of these buildings, but if you consider the primary function of these maps and the limitations on space on the map and the plethora of data that needs to be portrayed; some features have to go.

It's a map...blotting out the big, pointy building in the middle of a town would be sheer bloody-minded idiocy. Churches are immediately obvious in real life and should be just as immediately, eye-catchingly obvious on a map.

Basically, I don't believe a word of it.
 
Inverurie Jones said:
It's a map...blotting out the big, pointy building in the middle of a town would be sheer bloody-minded idiocy. Churches are immediately obvious in real life and should be just as immediately, eye-catchingly obvious on a map.
Most of them have steeples. Very useful in areas where there are no other obvious landmarks. Which is most of southern Britain.

It must be crap. ;)
 
rynner said:
John Prescott, in whose hands under Tony Blair this decision rests...

Bearing this in mind anything is possible. :(
 
AndroMan said:
Most of them have steeples. Very useful in areas where there are no other obvious landmarks. Which is most of southern Britain.

I'd noticed that; you people live on a big billiard table...
 
Tory Propaganda

I couldn't believe the OS could be as stupid as the article led us to believe, or that the Government were so "loonie left" so I emailed the OS to ask if Churches were to be stripped from their maps.

This is their reply, received today (12/05/2003):

Changes to Ordnance Survey Explorer maps

Important changes will begin to appear on Ordnance Survey’s 1:25,000 scale Explorer map series over the next few years.

The new look to the mapping will be introduced as new countryside access rights brought about by the Countryside and Rights of Way Act 2000 are phased in across England and Wales. The Countryside Agency and the Countryside Council for Wales are responsible for determining the extent of the new access areas, which will then require Ministerial approval. As this process is completed for each part of the country, the information will be passed to Ordnance Survey for inclusion on the appropriate Explorer maps at the earliest opportunity. On current plans, the first such maps are expected to appear in late 2004.

There has been extensive consultation and field trials of various sample maps to ensure that the new maps are clear and easy to read. As a result, the way such access areas will be shown, along with some related changes to avoid any confusion among map readers, has now been agreed.


Under the new specification:

. the extent of the new access areas will be indicated by a pale yellow tint with a pale orange border.

· simplified National Park boundaries will be shown on the map cover, but not on the map itself, as the trials indicated this caused considerable confusion with access land. Such boundaries will, however, continue to be shown on other Ordnance Survey products, including the pink-covered 1:50,000 scale OS Landranger Map series, the OS Travel Map-Tour series, and large-scale digital map data.

· civil parish, community and other administrative boundaries will continue to be shown on Explorer maps but they will appear in magenta rather than black to avoid confusion with other features on the mapping.

· physical paths currently shown by black dashes will be shown with black dots instead. Subtle changes to the green rights of way symbols will make it easier to see where they coincide with these physical paths. Similar changes will be made to the depiction of permissive paths shown in orange. In Scotland, the creation of Core Paths under the Land Reform (Scotland) Act will also be reflected on Explorer maps as the information becomes available.

The new specification will apply consistently throughout Great Britain, to ensure that any future changes to access arrangements can be reflected across the whole Explorer series.

At the same time, Ordnance Survey has also reviewed the way that places of worship are shown on Explorers, as many religious buildings are now in secular use.

We are not making any changes to how we show places of worship on our Explorer maps. What we are doing is making a slight amendment in the description at the side of the map to make it easier to understand that some places of worship have changed use.

Current and former places of worship with towers, spires, minarets or domes are also helpful navigational aids. These buildings will continue to be shown with the traditional symbols. However, in these cases the description ‘place of worship’ in the key will be amended to read ‘building/place of worship with…etc’ to reflect the fact that some have changed their status.

Where a former place of worship has no tower, spire, minaret or dome - and is therefore of little or no help for navigation - the building will continue to be shown but will not be highlighted with a symbol. For current places of worship without such architectural features, the traditional symbol will be retained and they will continue to be described in the map key as a ‘place of worship without a tower, spire, minaret or dome’.



Ordnance Survey has listened carefully to what people want by way of clarity and accuracy on Explorer maps and we are confident that the new specification will satisfy the overwhelming majority of customers.

The consultation on these specific changes is now over, but Ordnance Survey always welcomes customer feedback on the content of our maps. Specifications are constantly evolving, and we will continue to look to ways to improve, for example, the colour balance and use of symbols on our maps.

Sounds perfectly reasonable to me..............

Perhaps this will produce a little contriteness from those participents of this thread (and you know who you are!) who are so eager to believe every Times story that impicates a "loonie Labour" plot.
 
Well, didn't you just kill off this thread by employing real facts
I hope you're pleased with yourself
 
Sorry Whizzer :sad:

It doesn't say much for the veracity of the articles we read in the Press though, does it? We often use quotes from the dailys' to beat each other about the head with (see the War in Iraq thread), but I wonder how reliable they are?
 
Zygon said:
So I'm the only one here who navigates using the locations of record shops and bookstores...? (Just don't ask me for street names...) :nonplus:

and charity shops, don't forget charity shops.
 
Dark Detective said:
We're switching to inflatable churches anyway.

THAT is unbelievably funny :D Bouncing in the aisles! Look at the altar: it's all wonky...

And what's more:

"Mr Gill, who now has plans to create an inflatable pub,..."

Genius!
 
A bouncy Houses of Parliament would be worth watching. And they could use the politicians' egos to inflate it.
 
Yoo Hoo...Rynner

Hey...Rynner........

What's the point of starting a thread if you have no interest in participating?

Have you just lost interest in it? :miaow:
 
I was going to mention the thing about National Park boundaries, but someone beat me to it!

I do mostly start threads on subjects I'm interested in, and as a long-time map (and chart) user, this did interest me, but I don't always feel the need to pop in every other post! It's often quite entertaining just seeing what everyone else makes of it. :)
 
thus 'our tone' says to his first disicple:-

"thou shalt dissuadeth thee masses frometh findinge
ye olde places ofe worshippe, so i mayeth revele ine
theire warshipp, as thus shalt thee reeveele tooe thee
plase ofe warshipe"

and thus plans went ahead

"untoo yee ande thee masses ie nowe reveele thy
newe plase of warship tooe thy firste disicplese i
nowe i revele toe yee"

and thus 'our tone' revealed the location of
the place of worship to his first disicple

"ITT ISE NUMBURE 10 DOWNINGE STREETE"

ande thus thee firste disicple doth reevealeth
thee newe plase ofe worshippe :D
 
You must be as relieved as I am then Rynner to read the eminently sensible response I received from the OS.

The most interesting thing for me, is reading the contributions of fellow posters (on many threads) who seem to believe any old rubbish as long as it fits into their political world-view and gives them an opportunity to do a bit of Tony/Maggie-bashing.

Human nature I suppose, but I am often surprised by the level of vitriol.

Very un-Fortean!

It is easy to understand how urban myths and FOAF tales are perpetuated. The hoary old fiction about the GLC banning Baa-Baa Black Sheep in London schools is STILL trotted out in the right-wing press with monotonous regularity.

The biggest conspiricy of all is surely the Media...Hmmm I must start a thread on it.
 
I look at it like this: not that individual churches will disappear off the maps bit since most churches are sited on ancient holy ground/sites that have been used throughout pre-Xtian times, a cultural part of our history is at risk.

It's a crying shame if that happens.
 
It's not going to happen Quicksilver.

Didn't you read the response I received from the OS when I emailed them the question "Are you planning to remove churches from OS maps?" (See 4th post for transcript of reply)?

Put your mind at rest. The original article was just a load of fabricated anti-Labour tosh cooked-up by a hack employed by the "Dirty Digger" on the good-old, unbiased Times. :rolleyes:
 
Ooh, no I didn't and phew.

Ooh, no I didn't and phew.


What the OS are actually doing seems to be eminently sensiible and a distinct improvement information-wise, don't you think?
 
Back
Top