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Re: equipment

philomath said:
I suppose this is the list of items they were planning to take with them ...

4 flashlights and 3 cameras....

Yes - that's what they cited on the original proposal.

I'm not clear whether this list represents what they propose to receive (from the sport committee, etc.) versus what they propose to supply themselves.
 
any report from Feb 2008 investigative conference?

Are there any report from Feb 2008 investigative conference?
in which Dyatlov Foundation invited 6 surviving members of the search party and 31 technical experts? (who deliberated the 9 deaths were likely the unintended result of a secret military test...)
 
Re: any report from Feb 2008 investigative conference?

philomath said:
Are there any report from Feb 2008 investigative conference?
in which Dyatlov Foundation invited 6 surviving members of the search party and 31 technical experts? (who deliberated the 9 deaths were likely the unintended result of a secret military test...)

Are you referring to the 2009 50th anniversary conference?

If so ... Yes, there are some documents (e.g., transcripts) from that event archived at this Russian site:

http://infodjatlov.narod.ru

... But I don't know how many of them are publicly visible / accessible via their front end webpages.
 
Re: 2 pics of ripped tent

philomath said:
thank you

from
http://infodjatlov.narod.ru/fg4/imagepages/image26.htm
and from
http://infodjatlov.narod.ru/fg4/imagepages/image27.htm

I get 2 different images of teh badly ripped tent...
are they both from the ripped downslope side
or are they from 2 different sides of the tent?

also it seems that the tent floor is attached to the tent...

Yes - those are two different photos of the tent from the down-slope side. You can correlate the two based on the dangling fragment positioned in the middle.

I'm not sure why the photographer didn't get a good single shot of the entire tent (or the other side). I suspect it was the best he could do in the confines of the room (space, whatever ...).

As you can see from those photos, it's difficult to correlate the overall 'carnage' with the nice set of straight slits the illustrative drawings depict.

The floor part is definitely attached in these photos. I've seen multiple allusions in Russian that translate as something like 'floor ... detachable / removable', but I've never seen clear evidence for a separable floor. There's one photo showing a couple of skiers brushing debris off a folded rectangular canvas or tarp that arguably looks to be too small to be the entire tent, but that's it ...
 
lats shots on Feb 1?

EnolaGaia said:
.........
Here are some issues with that set of film rolls ...
................
Perhaps most interesting is the fact that the two widely circulated photos of the party digging a place for the tent on 1 February do not appear on any of these 5 exhibits.
............
picture.

from Dyatlov Pass Keeps Its Secret:
"The picture was published for the first time in a book The Price of a State Secret is Nine Lives by Anatoly Guschin...Who had taken this shot remains unknown, as well as from whom the journalist had obtained the picture" One of the most known investigators ...Vladimir Borzenkov doubted that the snapshot above was taken on February 1; he thought it was almost impossible to find a pocket with such deep snow in the area..."
 
Re: bamboo sky pole

EnolaGaia said:
It might have been temporarily grabbed as a potential interior support, which could be taken to suggest the cut marks might have been evidence for trying to modify or shorten it for use as an emergency prop.
Vadim Brusnitsyn, good friend of Kolmogorova and Doroshenko. He was in the rescue group headed by Slobtsov..spent more time in and around the tent compared to any other rescuer or prosecutor....ski pole cut into several pieces; apparently, it was the one that was used as a central peg for the northern end of the ridge..." (from Dyatlov Pass keeps its secret)
 
Guschin's book may have been the first print publication to show the 'tent site digging' photos, but they definitely date back to the lost party in 1959.

Those are the two photos specifically described in the investigation / inquest documentation as the ones analyzed to conclude the party had pitched the tent no earlier than around 1700 local time. The documentation states these two photos were retrieved from one of the cameras recovered from the tent.

What's surprising to me is that those key photos don't appear among the film strips displayed at the link you posted some days ago.

I suppose one possible explanation is that the investigators removed them and kept them separate because they were the photos most obviously relevant to reconstructing what might have happened.

If the illustrated negative strips don't have any omissions or cut-outs, we can at least rule out Krivonischenko's camera as the one that took those two photos. It was his camera that contained the mysterious 33rd (or maybe 34th) frame. The Krivonischenko film / negative strip is broken at a point earlier than the mystery frame. However, it appears to me it's a clean non-straight cut and the frames to either side align perfectly at their edges.
 
Re: bamboo sky pole

philomath said:
Vadim Brusnitsyn, good friend of Kolmogorova and Doroshenko. He was in the rescue group headed by Slobtsov..spent more time in and around the tent compared to any other rescuer or prosecutor....ski pole cut into several pieces; apparently, it was the one that was used as a central peg for the northern end of the ridge..." (from Dyatlov Pass keeps its secret)

The 'northern end' would be the end that collapsed.
 
footprints preservation & unusual weather conditions

preservation of the footprints for nearly 4 weeks is another oddity

3 conditions are necessary:

1) presence of a solid support (ice crust or firn)
2) significant fallout of fresh, loose, fluffy snow
3) short-term thaw with temperatures close to the snow melting point
4) certain wind velocity
5) perhaps, a drop of temperature after the thaw it will freeze the shape of footprints and help to preserve them longer

The footprints must have been left either during a snowfall that brought fresh fluffy snow, or immediately after it

from book Dyatlov Pass keeps its secret
 
Boris Vozrozhdenny seniority

philomath said:
how competent and experienced was the doctor who executed the autopsy?

forensic experts Boris Vozrozhdenny had 4 years of practice
 
last food from autopsy

from autopsy:

time from last food was > 8 hours for all

except:

Dyatlov > 4 hrs
Slobodin > 6 hrs
TB > 6 hrs
Dubinina ?

What we dont know is whether they all had the last meal together....
 
clothing abandoned

10–15 meters from the tent were found shoes, socks and Igor Dyatlov’s fur jacket lying in the snow. A weatherproof jacket also lay nearby.

Isn't this odd? if it is true....

from Keith McCloskey - Mountain of the Dead
 
torch on the tent

from Keith McCloskey - Mountain of the Dead
"On top of the tent, Slobtsov found a torch of Chinese make. It was lying on 5–10 cm of snow but had no snow on it and was in working condition"


again if this is true, what can we imply?

only 5-10 cm of snow?

why not snow on the torch?
 
tent opening

from Keith McCloskey - Mountain of the Dead


front of the tent buttoned up with fairly stiff buttons in teh stitched canvas + inner curtain hung over it for insulation
 
Re: itinerary timeplan

philomath said:
If I understand well here is the original timeplan:

https://sites.google.com/site/hibinaud/ ... ov-datlova

they were not late in their trip....

from Keith McCloskey - Mountain of the Dead:

"following Igor Dyatlov’s original schedule, the group had planned to leave the second severny on 29 January, but actually left the village the day before, on 28 January. Regarding the whole of the original schedule, the group was making excellent progress and was already a total of three days ahead. They were supposed to leave Vizhay on the original start date of 28 January, but on this date they were actually leaving the second severny located at a distance of three days’ passage"
 
why that (cedar) tree?

What was the reason for lighting a fire under that cedar tree - and not somewhere else?

I understand the cedar was at the limit of the forest in the valley very exposed to the wind and elements…
why not choose another spot more protected and sheltered deeper in the forest?
Cedar trees – because of resin – burn more easily than birch trees or other bushes – and often their lower branches are less green / drier…and therefore more apt to burn, but I understand there were other (smaller) cedar trees in the vìvicinity

I’m asking because the reason could have that THAT cedar tree – because of its prominent location and height - was the obvious and optimal beacon / observation point to signal / be seen and/or see the campsite (although only from the higher branches) and/or the path down from it into the valley…although in a moonless dark night?!?…if it was night time…
 
the longer stride in the footpath

there was apparently a longer stride identified in the footprint path - usually it is supposed to belong to Doroshenko - at 180 cm usually presumed to be the tallest member of the group - but there could be another explanation.

Maybe the previous footpaths were shorter and more prudent because of the dark / low visibility, while the 'last one' - was longer and more confident because it was already dawn or day time...
 
Re: last food from autopsy

philomath said:
from autopsy:

time from last food was > 8 hours for all

except:

Dyatlov > 4 hrs
Slobodin > 6 hrs
TB > 6 hrs
Dubinina ?

What we dont know is whether they all had the last meal together....

A couple of comments ...

Nowhere do the autopsy documents claim death occurred more than 8 hours after last ingestion of food.

The autopsy report on Dyatlov mentions 'sour smelling' stomach contents, but no estimate of time from last food intake to death is given.

The autopsy report on Dubinina also makes no mention of estimated time from last ingestion to death. Which brings me to another item often cited for her ...

It's common to find claims that Dubinina's stomach contained blood, and this alleged fact is sometimes used to support sensationalized suggestions she was alive when her tongue was removed.

None of this is supported by the autopsy report. The report clearly states that up to 1.5 liters of blood was found in her pleural cavity (surrounding the lungs and heart). This is entirely consistent with her broken ribs and hemorrhaged heart.

The only thing the autopsy report states about her stomach contents is that it consisted of circa 100 cubic centimeters of slimy dark red matter. It's not identified as blood at all. It is similar in description to Dyatlov's stomach contents, and it would be consistent with the ham / pork scraps found in the tent.

EDIT: Changed '100 g' to '100 cubic centimeters'
 
Re: the longer stride in the footpath

philomath said:
there was apparently a longer stride identified in the footprint path - usually it is supposed to belong to Doroshenko - at 180 cm usually presumed to be the tallest member of the group - but there could be another explanation.

Maybe the previous footpaths were shorter and more prudent because of the dark / low visibility, while the 'last one' - was longer and more confident because it was already dawn or day time...


Yes - that's certainly a possibility. As I've mentioned before, there's no basis other than pure supposition for assuming the evacuation occurred during the early night of 1 February.

The one piece of 'hard' evidence strongly suggesting a nighttime evacuation is the discarded flashlight with dead batteries found down-slope from the tent, but not as far down-slope as any of the bodies.

The second (working) flashlight was found sitting on the tent. It's hard to read much into it. There's always the possibility they made a habit of leaving a flashlight outside for the use of anyone exiting the tent to (e.g.) urinate during the night.

The other issue that bugs me is whether this second flashlight could have stayed atop the tent when the tent collapsed. Unless it was frozen in place, it seems to me it should have rolled off when the other end of the tent fell down. (NOTE: I base this on the second flashlight being listed as of Chinese manufacture, plus comments on some Russian forums that the Chinese flashlights of that period were of the now-common cylindrical variety.)

This implies the second flashlight was placed on the tent after the back end had collapsed. That would be consistent with stepping outside to inspect a nighttime collapse, but I don't see that it necessarily implies anything with regard to time of evacuation downhill.
 
Re: why that (cedar) tree?

philomath said:
What was the reason for lighting a fire under that cedar tree - and not somewhere else?

I understand the cedar was at the limit of the forest in the valley very exposed to the wind and elements…
why not choose another spot more protected and sheltered deeper in the forest?
Cedar trees – because of resin – burn more easily than birch trees or other bushes – and often their lower branches are less green / drier…and therefore more apt to burn, but I understand there were other (smaller) cedar trees in the vìvicinity

I’m asking because the reason could have that THAT cedar tree – because of its prominent location and height - was the obvious and optimal beacon / observation point to signal / be seen and/or see the campsite (although only from the higher branches) and/or the path down from it into the valley…although in a moonless dark night?!?…if it was night time…


The cedar was prominent for being 'bigger' than the immediately surrounding trees. The cedar site was found because search party members saw it from a distance as a landmark at which to evaluate a new campsite they would need once they'd located the Dyatlov tent. When they went to the prominent cedar, they found the first 2 bodies and signs of a fire beneath it.

This has always bothered me ... If the cedar is that prominent / obvious a landmark in the daytime, how much coincidence is required to have the Dyatlov folks end up there in the dark?

The 1959 search party photos indicate a gap or 'bay' (of relatively clear ground) in the down-slope scrub vegetation that extends toward the cedar. The least vegetation-obstructed path down-slope would therefore lead one toward the vicinity of that cedar.

The ground around the cedar is relatively flat, and this was one of the features that attracted the search party members looking for a campsite. However, the cedar site is unsheltered by surrounding slopes toward the west, so it would have been relatively exposed to the strong westerly winds that night and the following day.

There is a small brook or creek that must be crossed to get to the cedar site from the tent site (similar to the 'ravine' stream farther to the east). I've often wondered how they got to the cedar site in the dark (having discarded a flashlight) without anyone having problems crossing that stream bed. On the other hand, it might help explain the choice of the cedar site if one or more people had gotten wet crossing the stream (e.g., breaking through ice). The cedar is relatively close to that first brook / stream bed, and any suddenly wettened feet would demand an immediate fire.
 
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Re: clothing abandoned

philomath said:
10–15 meters from the tent were found shoes, socks and Igor Dyatlov’s fur jacket lying in the snow. A weatherproof jacket also lay nearby.

Isn't this odd? if it is true....

from Keith McCloskey - Mountain of the Dead

The two searchers who found the tent reported they'd found Dyatlov's jacket stuffed into one of the holes in the tent (presumably one of the holes near the entrance end).

I suspect the over-enthusiastic volunteers (acquainted with the lost skiers) rummaging through the tent moved a lot of the items from their original positions.

The hash made of the crime scene has always bugged me. In the official documentation there's a statement from investigator Maslenikov (the lead investigator until criminal investigator Ivanov arrived on the scene). In this statement, Maslenikov relates how he'd learned of the tent's discovery (Feb 26) and that he'd immediately sent a message to not touch the tent.

It was already too late for that instruction to prevent confusion. Slobtsov and Scharavin had already hacked at the tent with an ice axe and prowled through the interior contents sufficiently to locate the alcohol (which they'd later admit to drinking).
 
torch at the tent

EnolaGaia said:
...the second flashlight being listed as of Chinese manufacture, plus comments on some Russian forums that the Chinese flashlights of that period were of the now-common cylindrical variety.

I assumed the torch @ the tent was similar to the one Zolotariov is consistently wearing in many pics....
 
cedar landmark

EnolaGaia said:
The 1959 search party photos indicate a gap or 'bay' (of relatively clear ground) in the down-slope scrub vegetation that extends toward the cedar. The least vegetation-obstructed path down-slope would therefore lead one toward the vicinity of that cedar.
Thank you. That might explain why everybody ended down more or less in the same place although it was probably dark and maybe they went down in separate contingents...
 
Re: torch at the tent

philomath said:
I assumed the torch @ the tent was similar to the one Zolotariov is consistently wearing in many pics....

No - not as far as I can tell ...

From what I gather on Russian forums the rectangular lamp with the big reflector that Zolotarev always carried was manufactured in the USSR. Chinese flashlights available in the USSR at the time were of the cylindrical variety most commonly encountered in everyday use.

Somewhere (maybe within the inquest documentation) there's a searcher or investigator sketch showing the flashlight at the tent as cylindrical. The flashlight found on the tent is cited as Chinese in the investigative documentation.

The dead flashlight found circa 400 - 450m down-slope from the tent (and off to one side of the footprints' 'main path') is cited as Chinese.

NOTE: I'm just repeating what I've read on other sites. I can't confirm there were no rectangular lamps made in China.

I've not yet found any clear indication(s) for where Z's persistently-worn rectangular flashlight ended up.
 
Re: cedar landmark

philomath said:
EnolaGaia said:
The 1959 search party photos indicate a gap or 'bay' (of relatively clear ground) in the down-slope scrub vegetation that extends toward the cedar. The least vegetation-obstructed path down-slope would therefore lead one toward the vicinity of that cedar.
Thank you. That might explain why everybody ended down more or less in the same place although it was probably dark and maybe they went down in separate contingents...

I finally re-located the annotated image that illustrates what I'm talking about:

http://infodjatlov.narod.ru/011_2.jpg

This photo shows two of the search party members standing a few hundred meters down-slope from the tent.

The circle indicates the general location of the cedar. To the left you can see the 'open corridor' through the scrub vegetation I mentioned.

EDIT to Add:

Here's the image referenced above ...

It shows 2 members of the search party, standing about halfway down-slope from the tent to The Cedar.

In the center of the photo (where the 2nd from left arrow is pointing ... ) is the 'gap' or 'bay' in the scrub vegetation to which I'd referred. The circled bit just to the right of the gap is The Cedar.

The party's footprints indicated they descended below the tree line within the gap.

Notch+Cedar-Locs.jpg

 
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Z's torch

EnolaGaia said:
I've not yet found any clear indication(s) for where Z's persistently-worn rectangular flashlight ended up.

Weren't there different interpretations as if Z had a camera or a rectangular flashlight with him?
 
Re: Z's torch

philomath said:
Weren't there different interpretations as if Z had a camera or a rectangular flashlight with him?

The photo of Z's body laid out in a snow pit (after extraction from the 'ravine') clearly shows a camera on a strap around his neck. The camera's circular lens is located in the center of the rectangular 'box'. His flashlight (visible in multiple photos from earlier in the trip) was clipped to his parka (not hung on a strap), and the circular reflector is offset to one end of the main rectangular 'box'.

The object strapped around his dead body's neck is therefore a camera. I can't locate his flashlight in the body-as-found photos, and I can't find any specific mention of its final location in the documentation.
 
Z's camera...why?

this really bugs me: why did Z have a camera with him?
unless it was morning time / approaching morning time when he left the tent, what was the purpose of a camera?
or could it be a hint to something else?
 
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