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clues to the last 4 bodies

from Irina & Vlad Lobatchev and Amanda Bosworth book....

chipped conifer sprigs formed a path from the cedar tree towards the ravine
looked as if somebody detruncated and dragged a few firs or spruces
 
3 rocky stripes between campsite and forest

from Irina & Vlad Lobatchev and Amanda Bosworth book...

3 or more rocky stripes parallel to each other traverse the way between campsite and forest
 
the second flashlight

from Irina & Vlad Lobatchev and Amanda Bosworth book...

a hundred meters down from the tent there was a turned on flashlight with dead battery
 
joeygirl said:
Did Yubin give any insight into the state of mind of the others? Would he have noticed any tensions?

My understanding is that Yubin was well-acquainted with most of the expedition members and had been on at least one earlier expedition with them. Zina and Dubinina both noted sadness at his turning back; one of them (I forget which one ...) noted the females were particularly sad to see him go back.

My guess is yes - Yubin would have been a credible observer of psychological stresses up to the point he left. Unless there's something in (e.g.) an interview I've not yet found, Yubin didn't indicate any tensions or frictions.

NOTE: Yubin died in 2013.

On the other hand ... It wasn't until after Yubin had turned back that the party's journal entries start noting slower-than-desired progress, etc., so I have no reason to believe he ever witnessed any issues arising as they continued to the pass.

The plan as of the morning of 1 February was pretty evidently not the same as the plan as of the morning of 31 January. This change of plans no doubt involved discussion, and the discussion may have involved debate or dispute.
 
Re: igor dyatlov body

philomath said:
from Irina & Vlad Lobatchev and Amanda Bosworth book....

apparently Dyatlov died laying face down in the snow but rescuers found him lying on his back ... somebody flipped him over after rigor mortis (checking he was alive?)

I call 'BS' on this ... There's nothing to indicate Dyatlov expired in any orientation other than the supine position in which his body was discovered.
 
cameras

4 cameras found:

camera zorky: 34 frames filmed - Krivonishenko (with tripod and broken filter)
camera zorky: 27 frames filmed - Slobodin
camera zorky: 27 frames filmed - Zolotarev?
brand of 4th camera? - not Dyatlov
5th camera - did it exist?

and 6 rolls of films + single frames from presumed 7th roll
 
Re: 3 rocky stripes between campsite and forest

philomath said:
from Irina & Vlad Lobatchev and Amanda Bosworth book...

3 or more rocky stripes parallel to each other traverse the way between campsite and forest

Check the photo at:

http://infodjatlov.narod.ru/fg5/imagepages/image31.htm

There are rocky patches all over the place, including the slope down which they fled.

There were plenty of places someone could have fallen and injured themselves on the way down.
 
Re: igor dyatlov body

philomath said:
from Irina & Vlad Lobatchev and Amanda Bosworth book....

apparently Dyatlov died laying face down in the snow but rescuers found him lying on his back ... somebody flipped him over after rigor mortis (checking he was alive?)

I call 'BS' on this ... There's nothing to indicate Dyatlov expired in any orientation other than the supine position in which his body was discovered.
 
Re: the second flashlight

philomath said:
from Irina & Vlad Lobatchev and Amanda Bosworth book...

a hundred meters down from the tent there was a turned on flashlight with dead battery



They're wrong on that ... :roll:

The most specific documentation for the location of the 'non-tent flashlight' is a sketched diagram or map illustrating the search party's path of probing during the first phase of search / recovery (late February into March). On this diagram the location of the flashlight is shown as circa 400m down-slope from the tent - just before one gets to the boundary of the scrub vegetation zone.

This location was confirmed by one of the soldiers who'd been among the searchers (a Syunikaev) in 2009.

The only additional info that Syunikaev offered about the flashlight was that he didn't remember it being a Chinese-made light like the one found atop the tent.
 
Re: tent

philomath said:
http://www.allmystery.de/bilder/km49817/17
how don't know how much reliable

The diagram you cited is a relatively recent addition to the Dyatlov Pass corpus. To the best of my knowledge, it was created within the last 4 or 5 years. I can't be sure owing to the destruction of my primary workstation in last year's fire.

As I recall, I first saw it on a western European site (German? Swiss?). However, I've never been able to pin down its origin. The original version of the diagram included Russian text explaining its contents. I'll have to do some rummaging to locate the text, so I'll post it later.

That diagram represents an attempt to estimate the locations and sizes of the various holes in the Dyatlov tent by examination and analysis of the original photos.

Those photos were taken at the Ivdel police headquarters in spring of 1959. The wrecked tent was hung on a clothesline and over some chairs in a room at the police building, and a photographer took some cursory snapshots. These shots were of the side of the tent facing down toward the valley into which the party fled - i.e., the down-slope side and the side most exposed to the wind.

No photo was taken of the other (up-slope) side of the tent, even though some notes indicated there were one or more holes on that side as well.

For whatever reason (probably the room's layout) the photographer couldn't or wouldn't get a single shot spanning the entire tent. The results were two or more photographs, which in various permutations can be found on multiple sites. For example, a composite of the two most commonly seen shots can be accessed at:

http://dverisi.narod.ru/1047pX.jpg

NOTE: What with all the excerpted close-ups and annotated versions strewn around the 'Net over the years, I've never been clear on exactly how many different photos were originally taken.

Anyway ... As the story goes ... A tailor or seamstress happened to be visiting the police station at the time, in relation to some uniform sewing work.* He / she took a look at the tent and declared the cuts inspected had been done from the inside. Up until that point the investigators were still entertaining theories involving cuts from the outside (e.g., intruders). As a result of the tailor / seamstress's claim, the tent was packed off to a forensic lab for further study on the damages.

*NOTE: Accounts vary on the gender and profession of the person(s) who claimed the cuts were made from inside. Some claim it was a male tailor, and some claim it was a female seamstress. A few accounts mention a laundress - sometimes alone and sometimes in conjunction with a tailor.

Even though the investigators directed close scrutiny to the tent evidence, the quality of the forensic analysis done at the time has long been a subject of dispute and even ridicule.

Whoever generated this diagram wanted to see how decent an inventory of the tent damage could be reconstructed from the surviving photos.

I'll post the translated text from the original version of the diagram when I find it ...
 
It didn't take as long as I feared to locate the original caption text for that diagram ...

Here's my translation. Bits in square brackets are my tweaks for readability in English.

References to the chair relate to estimating lengths / distances. The chair was presumed to be a factory product conforming to Soviet standards, and this presumption is the basis for using the chair as a scale for estimating the holes' sizes.

(Text above the diagram ...)

Knowing that using the width of the chair back as a ruler [one] can try to measure all visible damage [to the side of the] tent facing the photographer as well as their location.

The result of this operation can be seen in the diagram presented below.

Immediately [one] should stipulate that despite the desire for accuracy [the] inevitable result contains the error associated with the difference in scale in photographs [of the tent] and uncertainty [about] the correction coefficient in the transition from [one] photograph to [the next; another].

(Diagram Graphic)

(Text below the diagram ...)


[This is an] isometric view of [the] rectangular tent [used by the] group Igor Djatlova, indicating sections of the right (from the entrance) roof slope. [I.e., the sloped tent roof as seen to the right when facing the tent's entrance.]

[The] drawing is made proportionally; beside the tent for clarity [is] depicted [the] male physique [of] Yuri Doroshenko in standing and sitting positions.

[The] dashed lines indicate the length of [incisions / slits] in the ["sidewall"].

Bold solid [lines indicate] short incisions made clearly for a purpose other than [making long cuts; achieving length].

The approximate dimensions [are as follows]:

"a" = 25 cm

"b" = 26 cm

"c" = 32 cm

"d" = 34 cm

"i" [presumably / supposedly / conceivably slit length is] 6.0 - 6.5 cm

"f" = 16.5 cm, [this slit was made by Slobtsov on ...] 26 February 1959.

"g" - slit of indefinite length, as original photograph [of] it obscures wrapped tarp, about [it one] can only say that its length is [not] less than 19 cm and not more than 72 cm.

"v" = 14.5 cm

"u" = 13 cm

In view of the poor quality of the original images shown and measured, not all short cuts, especially [those far distant] from the entrance of the tent [are shown; are described].
 
Re: igor dyatlov body

EnolaGaia said:
philomath said:
from Irina & Vlad Lobatchev and Amanda Bosworth book....

apparently Dyatlov died laying face down in the snow but rescuers found him lying on his back ... somebody flipped him over after rigor mortis (checking he was alive?)

I call 'BS' on this ... There's nothing to indicate Dyatlov expired in any orientation other than the supine position in which his body was discovered.

from Irina & Vlad Lobatchev and Amanda Bosworth book...
...ice was on Igor's face and under his chin, indicating that he lay face down in the snow for a while and melted it with his breath. But rescuers found him lying on his back. It is impossible to dye lying on your back, holding hands clenched into fist in front of yourself. In the dead body. muscles relax and do not support raised limbs anymore; so Igor's arms were supposed to fall to the side. Clearly, someone flipped him over soon after his corpse had developed rigor mortis, and his body froze stone-hard in that position.
 
Re: autopsies

EnolaGaia said:
philomath said:
how competent and experienced was the doctor who executed the autopsy? do I recall correctly that they were 2 different doctors for the first 5 bodies and then for the other 4?

The autopsies were done by appointed medical examiners, not just any doctor.

I'm not certain if the same doctor(s) performed the autopsies on the first batch of bodies versus the last four (not found until 3 months after the incident).

Forensic expert Boris Vozrozhdenny and Ivan Paptev performed autopsy of the first 5 bodies in March in Ivdel.
In May forensic expert Boris Vozrozhdenny in presence of Genrietta Eliseevna Churkina (a she) - expert-criminalist (she also examined the tent)and prosecutor criminalist Lev Ivanov Nikitich and pathologist Gants performed the forensic examination of the last 4 bodies in Ivdel. Later Gants carried out histological tests on tissues of the 5.
 
radioactivity tests

were radioactivity tests carried out on all bodies or only on the 4 bodies in the ravine?
and what about their belongings in the tent?
 
Re: footprints mismatch

EnolaGaia said:
philomath said:
EnolaGaia you mention in one of your posts few days ago that there were less than 8 or 9 footprints going down hill...but I only always found accounts of 8 or 9 footptrints on - one of which wearing one boot...The strange thing is that 2 of the party were wearing boots....why these traces could not be found?

Accounts vary. Some say '6 to 8', some '7 to 9', and some say '8 or 9'. The official summary report says '8 - 9', and it's the only account that claims at least one pair or prints seemed to be wearing boots (which would have been Zolotarev). I've never seen any mention of whether Z's boot soles were flat or treaded. I've never seen any evidence of boot heel(s) or tread in the footprint photos.
Zolotarev was wairing a pair of warm leather hand made shoes known as "burka", Thibeaux Brignolle was wearing a pair of 'valenki' - why there is no trace of their footprints? only of the other half booted Slobodin...
 
Re: igor dyatlov body

philomath said:
...

from Irina & Vlad Lobatchev and Amanda Bosworth book...
...ice was on Igor's face and under his chin, indicating that he lay face down in the snow for a while and melted it with his breath. But rescuers found him lying on his back. It is impossible to dye lying on your back, holding hands clenched into fist in front of yourself. In the dead body. muscles relax and do not support raised limbs anymore; so Igor's arms were supposed to fall to the side. Clearly, someone flipped him over soon after his corpse had developed rigor mortis, and his body froze stone-hard in that position.

Ice on Dyatlov's face and chin doesn't prove anything more than that he was physically active in extreme cold. If you go back and look at earlier photos you can find ones in which Dyatlov and / or another person has frost / ice around his mouth.

Relaxation / flaccidity upon expiring and dropping of the arms (as claimed from the book quote) _would_ be expected to have occurred that way in a case where the victim was lying supine on an open surface (e.g., a floor) at temperatures above freezing. The claimed effects weren't found with Dyatlov because these factors didn't apply in Dyatlov's case.

There are 3 counter-explanations more in line with the circumstances, environment, and forensic pathology ...

First, there's a good chance he expired in temperatures in the range of -40 to -50 C, and simple freezing of his clothing (if not his extremities) would help explain why his arms didn't fall down to his sides.

Second - and more blindingly obvious - is the fact he was lying in snow which supported his elbows on both sides. There was no empty space to afford his arms downward travel.

Third - and IMHO the real reason - is that Dyatlov evidenced a classic case of cadaveric spasm. Cadaveric spasm is an uncommon but well-known phenomenon in which extremities go into a rigor or rigor-like state immediately following death. The most common explanation is that in some cases the ATP levels in the extremities are depleted and result in immediate but localized locking / stiffening of the muscles for the same biochemical reasons that would cause general rigor in a few hours otherwise.

Cadaveric spasm is strongly associated with cases in which the victim expired (a) while engaged in strenuous physical action and / or (b) while in a state of strong emotional arousal. Both these hallmark factors presumably applied to Dyatlov as he was scrambling through scrub vegetation knowing he was already dead meat. The real clincher (no pun intended ...) would be the widespread mentions of Dyatlov being found clutching a branch or sprig. Clenching an object in the hand even after death is one of the defining characteristics of cadaveric spasm.
 
Re: footprints mismatch

philomath said:
Zolotarev was wairing a pair of warm leather hand made shoes known as "burka", Thibeaux Brignolle was wearing a pair of 'valenki' - why there is no trace of their footprints? only of the other half booted Slobodin ...

I've mentioned these points in earlier posts. My take on the photographic evidence tends to agree with the lower number of tracks claimed (6 - 8 ), and I've never convinced myself any of the visible tracks were made by the boots Z was wearing.

However ...

There are conceivable reasons why a total of 9 tracks were not represented in the photos:

(1) The investigators' report clearly states some individuals' tracks diverged from the 'main path' but soon rejoined it. There's always the possibility one or more photographs were taken at a point in that 500m stretch at which one or more tracks were out of frame.

(2) There's a natural tendency in following someone through substantial snow to try and step into the footprints someone else has already made. In other words, some of the visible footprints might have been 'two-in-one'.

(3) The search party scanned / probed immediately down-slope from the tent within a search path circa 120m wide (60m to each side of the tent). If anyone had descended along a path that diverged more than 60m laterally from the basically direct line down into the valley indicated by the 500m stretch of visible footprints, their prints might never have been noted.
 
Re: cameras

philomath said:
4 cameras found:
camera zorky: 34 frames filmed - Krivonishenko
camera zorky: 27 frames filmed - Slobodin
camera zorky: 27 frames filmed - Zolotarev?
brand of 4th camera? - not Dyatlov
5th camera - did it exist?

I've already discussed why I don't believe there was a fifth camera in an earlier post.

Yubin seems to have told the investigators there should be 4 cameras early on - before the last 4 bodies (and the last camera) were located over 3 months after the fatal night. The usual storyline is that Yubin is the one who jumped to the conclusion the camera found with Z (one of the last bodies found) was not one of the 4 he'd expected, and hence represented a fifth one of which he'd been unaware. In the mean time, it seems to have become common knowledge that only 3 cameras were recovered from the tent, and everyone jumped to the conclusion there was a missing camera.

I've never seen any explanation for why no one considered the last camera found to be the missing fourth camera presumed to have been in the tent.

I've always had a hard time with the inventory of four cameras. To the best of my recollection, we never see more than two cameras in any of the earlier days' snapshots (which, added to the one making the snapshot, only adds up to 3). There's no consistency in who's shown holding a camera, so it's hard to claim whose camera it is in a particular person's hands at any given time.

There wasn't a big variety of affordable cameras available in that place and time. If you check the photos, the visible cameras all seem to be the same modest viewfinder model. This further complicates any attempt to identify which camera is which. Indeed, I'm not sure each of the four cameras is depicted at least once in the set of recovered photos.
 
Re: radioactivity tests

philomath said:
were radioactivity tests carried out on all bodies or only on the 5 bodies in the ravine?

There were only 4 bodies in 'the ravine'. It was a different - fifth - victim who is the central character in the radioactivity storyline.

The radioactivity angle is one of the murkiest and most muddled aspects of the case. It doesn't help that this angle has been highlighted, amplified, and distorted over the decades since the original events.

My current understanding, after trying to untangle all the convolutions, goes like this ...

First, some background ...

Two of the student (or past student) trekkers clearly had working experience relating to nuclear materials and / or technologies - Krivonischenko (one of the 2 found dead and stripped at the cedar) and Kolevatov (one of the 4 found last at 'the ravine').

Kolevatov had moved back to Sverdlovsk in 1956 after working in Moscow for a couple of innocuously-titled institutes that seemed to have been covers for nuclear research, development, and / or production activities.

Krivonischenko is the focal person in the radioactivity storyline. He had worked at the secret Mayak nuclear facilities at the (unlisted) town of Ozyorsk (also known as Chelyabinsk-40). He was working there in September 1957 - where and when the Kyshtym Disaster occurred. This was the most serious pre-Chernobyl nuclear accident. Krivonischenko was one of the people sent in to work on the clean-up. As such, there's clear reason to believe Krivonischenko had been radioactively contaminated in 1957.

Now let's fast-forward to the Dyatlov investigation ...

Krivonischenko's was one of the first two bodies located (at the cedar). His body had been stripped of outermost garments, which had apparently been cut away.

At this point things become murky ...

Somewhere along the line trace radiation was discovered on Krivonischenko's clothing (and his alone). The murky part is why anyone thought to check for radiation in the first place, and exactly where / when these traces were detected.

As far as I can tell, the trace radiation was detected pretty early (i.e., probably around the time of Krivonischenko's autopsy), because it wasn't long after that (sometime in March) that 'scientists with Geiger counters' were dispatched to the scene, where search operations continued.

My theory is that chief criminal investigator Ivanov or some other investigator asked for Krivonischenko's body to be checked for radiation. According to Ivanov's 1999 article, he pretty rapidly became focused on possible causes relating to fireballs, explosions, etc. He also stated that he'd had experience with running into secret military and nuclear matters that had to be left secret. And it was the height of the 'Atomic Era'.

In other words, I believe Ivanov was primed or tuned to suspect there may have been something military or otherwise secret in the mix, and it could well have meant something nuclear or nuclear-related.

Although I've never seen any specific claim to this effect, it is no stretch to think Ivanov had reviewed the backgrounds and histories of all the members in Dyatlov's party. Krivonischenko's prior work in the secret nuclear industry and his involvement with the Kyshtym Disaster would have jumped off the page at someone already inclined to consider the possibility of nuclear involvement (e.g., a secret test).

(I find this a lot easier to believe than the idea the pathologist just happened to have a Geiger counter on hand and decided to use it ...)

So ... Krivonischenko indeed presented traces of radioactivity. Some of his clothing had been removed. There were still bodies (and Krivonischenko's missing apparel) to be located. Someone (quite possibly Ivanov) suggested taking a Geiger counter to the scene to see if it would facilitate finding the remaining bodies, and this was done. This rationale for the presence of Geiger counters is clearly indicated in the earliest documentation and later recollections of people actually involved.

The remaining bodies weren't located until something like 2 months later. I've never seen a claim that their discovery resulted from the Geiger counter searching. As far as I can tell, they were discovered using 'old school' methods - snow probes and dogs.

Of the four bodies last discovered, only one presented radioactive readings. It was Dubinina, who was found clad in Krivonischenko's sweater and pants.

That's it; that's all. Two people were found with trace radioactivity, and it seems pretty clear both instances resulted from clothing belonging to one of the two.

There's no basis for the commonly seen claims that radiation / radioactivity was involved with everyone in Dyatlov's party.

The real mystery is why Krivonischenko was still using contaminated clothing. Of all the trekkers, he was the one most qualified to understand such things.
 
chapeau!

chapeau EnolaGaia for the depth & width of yr research and your wisdom
thank you
 
an 11th tourist??

from Keith McCloskey book:

...another person was expected to join the group, Nicolai Popov, nicknamed the 'morose fellow', who had agreed with the Dyatlov to provide his own supplies and equipment. Popov had already graduated from the university and was not a student. Fortunately for him he missed the train [from Sverdlovsk station]

what? if this is true how they expected to accommodate 11 people in such a small tent??
 
This is one of a special class of mysteries-the no survivors enigmas.

'Mary Celeste', the Ghost Blimp, the Franklin disaster...the list is extensive.

Fact is, lacking human witnesses(and after a few decades go by)any situation becomes so confused that a solution is very unlikely.

Stephen King put it well in his novel, "The Colorado Kid"-inspired by the Somerton Man incident-the function of a mystery is to allow investigation, even though the solution may never appear.

Indeed, investigation may further muddle the matter, as marginal matters are given too much attention. It builds up.

The JFK assassination is a fine example. Every possible point was munched and mumbled over until a fairly straightforward homicide became a tangle of conspiricy theories. Assassins are complex people who live untidy and illogical lives, they leave behind many questions, few answers. Chance can play a part as well, sometimes things that are examined endlessly are simply random events that mean nothing.

We may never know what happened, but it is very interesting to examine the facts.
 
Excellent points, krakenten!

I agree about the Dyatlov Pass incident representing one of those enigmas into which outsiders are relatively free to insert whatever explanations strike their fancy. In this sense the Dyatlov case is at least as interesting for what it illustrates about investigating / explaining a Fortean event as for what it illuminates about the event itself.

The category seems to be defined by a lack of survivors and / or evidence by which to describe, much less 'prove', any clear causal chain leading to a tragic outcome. This includes cases in which the tragic nature of the outcome is itself a matter of speculation (i.e., 'pure disappearances' such as Amelia Earhart or the _Cyclops_).

Incidents within this category are thus left as analogues for locked room mysteries or the 'logic problems' / 'situation puzzles' I loved to play with at parties.

Consider what would have happened if no one had survived (e.g.) the Donner or Shackleton expeditions. How much evidence would have been found (particularly in the Shackleton case)? How much would - or could - have been reconstructed of the way events unfolded? Finally - how many alternative causal interpretations would have been inserted into each incident's resulting mythos?

I've pondered this more general or 'meta-' issue for a long time. It seems to me one (if not _the_) key factor relates to the oft-quoted principle:

'Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence'

... and how far one presumes its implications reasonably extend.

My current take on this principle is that it is applicable in cases where there is specific reason to consider some 'X' (event, actor, process, etc.) was involved, even though there's no evidence (beyond reported observation(s)) for X being in play or even being around the scene. In contrast, I would submit it's not quite so applicable in cases where the factor X itself is being inserted absent any evidence (including subjective reports) at all.

The Dyatlov case is particularly interesting in this regard because its small set of demonstrable facts point to a couple of 'X' factors (radioactivity; mystery lights in the sky) that afford hooks onto which all sorts of speculations can be hung. Indeed, chief criminal investigator Ivanov would later (cf. 1999 article) demonstrate (a) they both played a part in his own theorizing and (b) he himself zeroed in on, and remained committed to, one of them (mystery lights / UFO's) even though higher authorities precluded their citation in the official report.

One could claim this last bit (b) then became an additional derivative 'X' onto which additional speculations (e.g., involving cover-up / conspiracy) could be, and were, based.

The only way to make matters worse is to embed such speculative add-ons into the purported evidence, and this case is a good example of such recursive mythologizing. The Dyatlov case is overlaid with many creative but unsubstantiated interpretations, some aspects of which have been unjustifiably adopted or distorted to become canonical aspects of the alleged evidentiary base. Toss a Google search in any direction and you'll find claims (e.g.) everyone was contaminated with radioactivity (they weren't ...) or that there was a specific sighting of weird aerial lights on the fatal night (there wasn't ...).
 
Re: an 11th tourist??

philomath said:
from Keith McCloskey book:

...another person was expected to join the group, Nicolai Popov, nicknamed the 'morose fellow', who had agreed with the Dyatlov to provide his own supplies and equipment. Popov had already graduated from the university and was not a student. Fortunately for him he missed the train [from Sverdlovsk station]

what? if this is true how they expected to accommodate 11 people in such a small tent??

Yeah - it wouldn't have been comfortable ...

The tent had been constructed (from two smaller tents) in 1956. Between 1956 and the fatal 1959 trip Dyatlov had led at least two other winter expeditions using that tent. There could have been more; I can only attest to there being photo sets from two specific earlier trips.

Somewhere I've seen a photo of such a tent (with stovepipe) in a non-snowy and apparently non-winter setting. I've never been clear whether this depicted a warm-weather outing for the Dyatlov tent, a photo showing off the tent after its construction, or simply a similar tent.

I mention 'similar tent' because I've seen comments indicating Dyatlov wasn't the only one to have created a bigger 4-meter-long tent by combining two ostensibly four-person 2-meter long tents.

I don't know the maximum number of people the tent housed in Dyatlov's tent on these prior expeditions. I can say that photos from at least one of the previous trips show a group at least as large as the final / fatal group.

Thanks for mentioning the alleged 11th person. I'd forgotten about that bit. Very few of the accounts mention there could have been an 11th member save for missing the initial train. For what it's worth, I've never seen any claims that the 11th member's background / connections / etc. offered any additional clues or angles on how the Dyatlov party proceeded.
 
Re: "zombie"

philomath said:
it seems to me that the behaviour of most team members was only partly rational...
it is true that they tried to survive out in the cold, light a fire, build a den, cover themselves with extra pieces of clothes taken from other people... possibly eventually even trying to go back to the tent....

but their behaviour was also not rational...
getting out of the tent without shoes, more clothes...why not to take at least a blanket? separating into subteams....

whatever the causes - whether intoxication, terror (or attraction for something), hypothermia... they were not acting 100% rationally...
So either they were forced to act against their will (which personally I don't believe) or we have to search for potential reasons for unrational acts....


Yes - this is one of the things that's always bugged me about the case.

The canonical versions / scenarios all involve the following progression of events:

- The Dyatlov group ascends the pass and makes camp all very 'rationally'. Their planning and timing as of 1 February may have been the result of poor judgement / foresight, but they seemed to have had their wits about them.

- Sometime (presumably during the night of 1 - 2 February) they temporarily act like idiots and flee the tent for the valley below clad only in their semi-dressed sleeping configurations.

- Once down in the valley, indications are that they acted in a deliberate fashion to deal with their new situation (building a fire; building a den; recycling / sharing clothing; presumably heading back up-slope to the tent).

This standard plot line has them switching from relatively 'sane' to 'insane' and back to 'sane' again. This plot line relies on there being something (X) which rendered them temporarily unable to think clearly. The usual explanation is 'panic in response to X', and the way is left open to insert any candidate(s) for 'X' one wishes.

However ... The footprint evidence (such as it is) doesn't indicate panic. It doesn't even indicate they were running.

IMHO the key to illuminating what probably happened is to forget all the suggestions that mandate their acting insane for a while and instead focus on what set of circumstances could have made flight dressed 'as is' a 'sane' course of action.

My currently preferred angle on this is that the unexpected deterioration in weather conditions (cf. my earlier posts on conditions there and then) might have started the chain of events, and certainly closed them out. I don't think the weather shift explains flight from the tent site dressed 'as is'.

I think the tent failed. One of the most overlooked (or conveniently suppressed ...) factoids is that the tent's original discoverers claimed Dyatlov's jacket was stuffed into a hole in the tent's fabric. There was a hole in the tent, and someone tried to deal with it. Doesn't sound like a sudden wholesale panic and flight to me ...

I'm starting to believe the tent began to fail, most if not all the trekkers exited the tent to survey / repair it, and then it failed again somehow (perhaps collapsing; perhaps buried by a snow slip at just the wrong moment ...) in a way that made it problematical to get back inside to get their boots. This explains how they got outside the tent in their sleep configurations.

NOTE: Yes - this means I'm disputing the claims the party cut their way out of the tent.

The next step was a quick decision to move most of the party down into the valley to await repairs, build a fire, build an emergency shelter, whatever.

I suspect Slobodin and Kolevatov were among the designated evacuees. Slobodin's half-shod footprints were overlaid by others, suggesting he may have been in a lead position.

Perhaps more telling is the apparent fact these were the only two who may have been able to start a fire. Slobodin and Kolevatov were the only two on whom any evidence of matches was found. Kolevatov had a box of matches that were water-soaked (he was found last, in 'the ravine' streambed). Slobodin had a 'match box' containing one sock.

Wild guess ... Slobodin's match box contained a sock because it had been re-purposed after his matches had been used up at the cedar.

NOTE: When I first began winter camping 50 years ago in the Scouts, I was lectured to always keep two things in my pockets at all times - something for starting a fire (like matches) and a dry pair of socks. I'm surprised this advice wasn't being followed by winter trekkers as experienced as the Dyatlov party.

The last person to follow the trail down the slope had a longer stride, and has routinely been presumed to be the tallest group member. That would have been Doroshenko. Doroshenko and Krivonischenko were the two who seemed to have died earliest down at the cedar.

Why was the last one down among the earlier ones to die, and why did his body and clothing seem to indicate the most frantic actions (tears, etc.)?

Here's a wild guess ... Doroshenko and Krivonischenko descended later and expired early because they'd originally stayed at the tent to deal with whatever the failure was. Either they couldn't fix the problem or the deteriorating weather at their exposed position forced them to retreat into the valley. Maybe these two had waited overlong for a flashlight signal that couldn't occur because the evacuees' light failed and was discarded circa 400m down-slope from the tent. Whether or not Doroshenko and Krivonischenko finally saw the glimmer of a fire 1500m down-slope at the cedar, they left to join the others.

I suspect Dyatlov may have stayed at the tent with them, but there's no clear evidence to insinuate this for him as much as for Doroshenko and Krivonischenko.

Once they got down into the valley, they didn't last long. I'm pretty confident it was Doroshenko who'd been up in the cedar tree, and this could have been the panicked action of someone already half-gone from hypothermia.

The earlier evacuees would have realized things had turned really deadly when the tent repair crew didn't signal for their return and instead showed up in the valley already half-gone.

Krivonischenko and Doroshenko die pretty soon after arrival.

No later than this point some or all the 3 found apparently heading back up-slope set out to get to the tent. None of them made it. I say 'no later than this point' because there's no firm basis for believing they headed up-slope together at the same time. For all we know, one or more of them had set out for the tent before the last ones off the mountain (the tent repair crew) arrived at the cedar, and they missed each other in the dark.

At some point a decision was made to build an emergency den. This might have been underway already, and / or it may have been a project started by T-B and Z operating independently from the others at the cedar 70 - 75m away. I still question whether T-B and Z were engaged with the others throughout the night's events.

In any case, T-B, Z, Dubinina, and Kolevatov were the only ones left alive in the valley after 3 left uphill and 2 died. They'd managed to get Dubinina into articles of Krivoschenko's clothing, cut off some fabric from one or both bodies, and moved back to the den site. One or more of them blundered off the bank into 'the ravine' during or after getting branches and fabric pieces laid in the den. By some permutation of events they all ended up falling in and dying there.

There are multiple variations on this scenario. My main conjecture is that most of the party deliberately descended into the valley as a temporary response to a tent failure, and then a monster degradation of weather conditions disrupted their plan and doomed them.

(EDIT: Corrected spelling on references to Krivonischenko.)
 
Re: "zombie"

EnolaGaia said:
I think the tent failed. One of the most overlooked (or conveniently suppressed ...) factoids is that the tent's original discoverers claimed Dyatlov's jacket was stuffed into a hole in the tent's fabric. There was a hole in the tent, and someone tried to deal with it. Doesn't sound like a sudden wholesale panic and flight to me ...
10-4. I've been hanging on this elementary concept for quite some time. They simply wouldn't have left a perfectly good tent, and we've got evidence of tears (regardless of what caused them, or when they were first noticed by the party). The bottom line is they left the tent, and considered it to be a logically sound decision at that moment. There are certainly oddities (aren't there always in homicide cases that have been studied too much?) but the math is simple. 9 hikers with little clothing + unholy low tempts = you know what. There was a problem with the tent.



EnolaGaia said:
At some point a decision was made to build an emergency den. This might have been underway already, and / or it may have been a project started by T-B and Z operating independently from the others at the cedar 70 - 75m away. I still question whether T-B and Z were engaged with the others throughout the night's events.
At only 75 meters, I'd be hard pressed to believe that the others couldn't hear voices and possibly even branches snapping, not to mention silhouettes - even considering the poor wind and light conditions.



EnolaGaia said:
One or more of them blundered off the bank into 'the ravine' during or after getting branches and fabric pieces laid in the den. By some permutation of events they all ended up falling in and dying there.
The only root cause of their injuries I recall being mentioned in recent time was the fall into the ravine and/or subsequent ice and snow fall and compaction - both which I remain skeptical. Any other theories?



EnolaGaia said:
There are multiple variations on this scenario. My main conjecture is that most of the party deliberately descended into the valley as a temporary response to a tent failure, and then a monster degradation of weather conditions disrupted their plan and doomed them.
Fully agree, pending a little more research I intend to do on the injuries.
 
Has anyone considered the possibility of alcohol and possible hijinks?

Wouldn't be the first time some people got plastered and acted strangely-even to the point of fatal foolishness.

Just a thought.
 
Re: "zombie"

Human_84 said:
10-4. I've been hanging on this elementary concept for quite some time. They simply wouldn't have left a perfectly good tent, and we've got evidence of tears (regardless of what caused them, or when they were first noticed by the party). The bottom line is they left the tent, and considered it to be a logically sound decision at that moment. There are certainly oddities (aren't there always in homicide cases that have been studied too much?) but the math is simple. 9 hikers with little clothing + unholy low tempts = you know what. There was a problem with the tent.

Right ...

The flight from the tent is the one piece of the canonical storyline that requires one to believe they all switched from 'sane' to 'insane' for a while, and this assumption sets the stage for inserting a tale of panic in response to some completely external event. However, nothing in the evidence clearly supports the notion of panic.

We know the tent had almost completely collapsed after 3.5 weeks, with one or more guy lines broken and at least one of the supporting ski poles shattered. This doesn't necessarily mean it collapsed all at once, and we naturally can't tell whether it had collapsed at the point the party fled down-slope.

Dyatlov's jacket was allegedly found stuffed into a hole at the entrance (the still-standing ...) end of the tent. It would be really insane to try and plug a hole at that end if the rest of the tent had already collapsed.

There are multiple things about the documented surveys of the tent damage that don't add up to me. For one thing, I've never understood how a panicked person would create the straight-line vertical cuts described in the forensic report - most especially if the tent had collapsed atop the person doing the cutting.

While I'm on the subject ...

- I can't find any indication in the documentation that Chukina (who analyzed the tent) claimed her 'cut' verdict applied to all the holes found in the tent fabric. The most specific references to particular holes all seem to focus on the holes around the entrance end. I still wonder if the 'cut from the inside out' conclusion has been gratuitously over-generalized over the years.

- The largest holes are portrayed as being vertical slashes down the side of the roof / canopy. This means they generally follow the weave of the canvas. Cutting so as to follow the weave - particularly under duress - is a possibility. The fabric separating along such lines if sufficiently distressed is a probability.

- The official documentation says no more than that the largest holes were big enough for someone to pass through. Nowhere does it say anyone definitely passed through any of those holes.

- The close-up photos from the tent analysis show fabric ends that are quite (un-)raveled, and don't necessarily look like the result of clean cuts.

- Nobody mentions the fact Chukina noted a lot of scrapes and other damage to the interior of the tent roof. She took this to be signs of 'hesitation mark's (i.e., tentative precursors to final cuts). What if they were instead evidence of fabric abrasion / degradation / damage from prior usage?

- We don't know how much of the tent damage may have been done by the search party before investigators (particularly Ivanov) actually examined it. We know the first 2 who discovered the tent hacked on it with an ice axe. Sometime in the following day or two the tent was emptied of all its contents and moved a couple of meters off to one side (leaving all the contents dumped on the snow where the tent had been erected). We know the over-enthusiastic volunteers (many of whom were personal acquaintances of the missing) made a total hash of the scene and focused on sorting through the party's belongings.

- I've long suspected the big holes along the side were either created or widened by these people in the course of removing the contents and moving the tent. They've always appeared to me to represent holes made by ripping away fabric between extant vertical slits / slashes (as suggested by the ragged margin at the top).

- That last night they erected the tent using most of their skis as the underlying 'flooring' (rather than branches). I can't find any mention of skis being used for under-flooring before. I've often wondered whether the skis allowed the tent to shift in ways it wouldn't have done atop branches.

- The group's belongings were arrayed all around the margins of the tent's interior. I don't know if this was the routine procedure, or whether it was done specially to help hold down the tent's periphery.
 
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