Tim Good's Source For The Original MJ 12 Papers?

[Carl Grove]

Okay, here goes.

1. "Real" UFOs represent an extremely advanced non-human technology utilising programmable matter in the form of living machines; devices that can repair themselves, change shape and replicate. These devices are under the control of an extremely advanced intelligence that is similar to sentient godlike AI. They exist in a world of information beyond our time and place (even from the future) as a natural part of developing propulsion and associated technologies. UFOs can be associated with synchronicities or other bizarre occurrences where individuals are approached in isolation or at specific moments; for such an intelligence dealing with arrogant primitive, narcissistic simians, it's no problem, it's like a game.

2. This is the level of contact WE are capable of. Take a look at the map of UFO sightings. That's a lotof experiences.. We can barely accept other humans with different skin colors; few people can tolerate up-close interaction with alien devices on a regular basis. UFOs have maintained a level of contact over a very long time, without causing a "tipping point". Mission accomplished! The governments and militaries of the world know they are real, and growing numbers of the population. It's a game that maintains a certain level of acclimation. I believe these devices have been here for a very long time. Periodically they pass through our area, and it is easy for them to get here. We are an oasis of life that they have discovered or watched evolve.

3. If one supposes the intelligence has a deep understanding of reality, and one accepts the reality of the panop!y of "paranormal" phenomena, there is no reason to suppose it wouldn't have an understanding of that, too.

I think that's a good summing up. I think where the simple ET hypothesis fails is that it derives from our concept of the universe, or even worse, from science fiction movies about alien invasion, and that concept may not be correct -- it certainly is not complete. If our current situation is, for example, really a simulation of some greater reality, then our attempts to pigeonhole phenomena like UFOs are bound to be inadequate. As you say, they have been around for a long time -- in a sense they have already "invaded" us.

 

[feinman]

I think that's a good summing up. I think where the simple ET hypothesis fails is that it derives from our concept of the universe, or even worse, from science fiction movies about alien invasion, and that concept may not be correct -- it certainly is not complete. If our current situation is, for example, really a simulation of some greater reality, then our attempts to pigeonhole phenomena like UFOs are bound to be inadequate. As you say, they have been around for a long time -- in a sense they have already "invaded" us.

Absolutely. I completely agree.

 

[dr wu]

Okay, here goes.

1. "Real" UFOs represent an extremely advanced non-human technology utilising programmable matter in the form of living machines; devices that can repair themselves, change shape and replicate. These devices are under the control of an extremely advanced intelligence that is similar to sentient godlike AI. They exist in a world of information beyond our time and place (even from the future) as a natural part of developing propulsion and associated technologies. UFOs can be associated with synchronicities or other bizarre occurrences where individuals are approached in isolation or at specific moments; for such an intelligence dealing with arrogant primitive, narcissistic simians, it's no problem, it's like a game.

2. This is the level of contact WE are capable of. Take a look at the map of UFO sightings. That's a lotof experiences.. We can barely accept other humans with different skin colors; few people can tolerate up-close interaction with alien devices on a regular basis. UFOs have maintained a level of contact over a very long time, without causing a "tipping point". Mission accomplished! The governments and militaries of the world know they are real, and growing numbers of the population. It's a game that maintains a certain level of acclimation. I believe these devices have been here for a very long time. Periodically they pass through our area, and it is easy for them to get here. We are an oasis of life that they have discovered or watched evolve.

3. If one supposes the intelligence has a deep understanding of reality, and one accepts the reality of the panop!y of "paranormal" phenomena, there is no reason to suppose it wouldn't have an understanding of that, too.

Someone has been reading Vallee...

Just for those who are unfamiliar with who I feel knows more about the enigma than anyone else....
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacques_Vallée
"As an alternative to the extraterrestrial visitation hypothesis, Vallée has suggested a multidimensional visitation hypothesis. This hypothesis represents an extension of the ETH where the alleged extraterrestrials could be potentially from anywhere. The entities could be multidimensional beyond space-time, and thus could coexist with humans, yet remain undetected.
Vallée's opposition to the ETH theory is summarised in his paper, "Five Arguments Against the Extraterrestrial Origin of Unidentified Flying Objects", Journal of Scientific Exploration, 1990:

Scientific opinion has generally followed public opinion in the belief that unidentified flying objects either do not exist (the "natural phenomena hypothesis") or, if they do, must represent evidence of a visitation by some advanced race of space travellers (the extraterrestrial hypothesis or "ETH"). It is the view of the author that research on UFOs need not be restricted to these two alternatives. On the contrary, the accumulated data base exhibits several patterns tending to indicate that UFOs are real, represent a previously unrecognized phenomenon, and that the facts do not support the common concept of "space visitors." Five specific arguments articulated here contradict the ETH:

1. unexplained close encounters are far more numerous than required for any physical survey of the earth;
2. the humanoid body structure of the alleged "aliens" is not likely to have originated on another planet and is not biologically adapted to space travel;
3. the reported behavior in thousands of abduction reports contradicts the hypothesis of genetic or scientific experimentation on humans by an advanced race;
4. the extension of the phenomenon throughout recorded human history demonstrates that UFOs are not a contemporary phenomenon; and
5. the apparent ability of UFOs to manipulate space and time suggests radically different and richer alternatives.

Vallée proposes that there is a genuine UFO phenomenon, partly associated with a form of non-human consciousness that manipulates space and time. The phenomenon has been active throughout human history, and seems to masquerade in various forms to different cultures. In his opinion, the intelligence behind the phenomenon attempts social manipulation by using deception on the humans with whom they interact.

Vallée also proposes that a secondary aspect of the UFO phenomenon involves human manipulation by humans. Witnesses of UFO phenomena undergo a manipulative and staged spectacle, meant to alter their belief system, and eventually, influence human society by suggesting alien intervention from outer space. The ultimate motivation for this deception is probably a projected major change of human society, the breaking down of old belief systems and the implementation of new ones. Vallée states that the evidence, if carefully analyzed, suggests an underlying plan for the deception of mankind by means of unknown, highly advanced methods. Vallée states that it is highly unlikely that governments actually conceal alien evidence, as the popular myth suggests. Rather, it is much more likely that that is exactly what the manipulators want us to believe. Vallée feels the entire subject of UFOs is mystified by charlatans and science fiction. He advocates a stronger and more serious involvement of science in the UFO research and debate.[10] Only this can reveal the true nature of the UFO phenomenon."

 

[Carl Grove]

This is exactly why I think that Vallee was the most important UFO researcher ever -- he had more original ideas on the subject than anybody else, including John Keel -- and why I spent many years following up his ideas in Messengers of Deception, studying disinformation, connections between ufologists and strange sects, mind control projects, and black antigravity developments. Pretty well all of his warnings about how UFO research was being taken over by the irrational true believers have come true. Was nobody listening?

 

[dr wu]

^ Off topic.. a bit....,.but Project Blue Book on the History channel is worth watching...my only complaint is that while it's early days they don't have an actor doing Vallee. Perhaps the second season.....and they do add in some things that are different from the actual cases.
https://www.history.com/shows/project-blue-book

 

[Carl Grove]

^ Off topic.. a bit....,.but Project Blue Book on the History channel is worth watching...my only complaint is that while it's early days they don't have an actor doing Vallee. Perhaps the second season.....and they do add in some things that are different from the actual cases.
https://www.history.com/shows/project-blue-book

I glanced at it briefly but was put off by some blatant errors -- e.g. I don't believe Hynek went out on field investigations in the early days, my impression was that he just evaluated written reports. I suppose someone sitting at a desk reading reports isn't dramatic enough.

 

[feinman]

From what I've read of Vallée's ideas, I think he is generally correct, though I've read almost nothing by him. Looking at the cases and articles and my own and others' experiences have led me to certain conclusions. UFO experiences are far more amazing and strange than just objects flying around. The displays and revelations, the deliberate timing and staging of UFO events, the contact with particular people (like pop and rock stars) as part of a larger program of contact, revelation, and acclimation, demonstrate the amazing abilities of the intelligence in charge. A level of contact is maintained. "Starman" on another forum had me read "The Alien Plan for Earth" by Donovan; some very interesting ideas there, and worth a read, though I am not on board with all of it.

 

[feinman]

The high strangeness aspects of the phenomenon, with the humanoids and other motley critters is perplexing; Donovan suggests they are staged shows to convey the idea of alien fallibility, and generally deceive.

 

[Carl Grove]

From what I've read of Vallée's ideas, I think he is generally correct, though I've read almost nothing by him. Looking at the cases and articles and my own and others' experiences have led me to certain conclusions. UFO experiences are far more amazing and strange than just objects flying around. The displays and revelations, the deliberate timing and staging of UFO events, the contact with particular people (like pop and rock stars) as part of a larger program of contact, revelation, and acclimation, demonstrate the amazing abilities of the intelligence in charge. A level of contact is maintained. "Starman" on another forum had me read "The Alien Plan for Earth" by Donovan; some very interesting ideas there, and worth a read, though I am not on board with all of it.

,
Well, a lot of Vallee's books and articles are available online, free, and you can get second hand copies cheaply enough on Abe. If I was limited to the books of just one ufologist it would be him, so I can't recommend him more strongly. He wasn't the first to notice the weird aspects, even Kenneth Arnold in the Coming of the Saucers (pdf free on Global Grey) had a few experiences, to say nothing of the Bender affair, MIBs, and Keel's research in the late 60s. In one of Vallee's books he refers even to CIA agents claiming to get in touch with aliens. This kind of stuff seems to crop up when someone is making progress in their research and maybe needs to be deflected -- I know of one researcher who got interested in UFOs and it seems has been targeted with messages hinting at some revelation coming soon. I can't reveal who, but I have warned him not to trust these entities, or even consider that it's an intelligence agency using disinformation to discredit him. As you know, several ufologists have come to sticky ends. I ceased active involvement myself back in the early 70s, but I have kept somewhat in touch.

 

[eburacum]

I must demur from the general hagiography of Jacques Vallee. Although the idea of extradimensional visitors is alluring, and is roughly in line with my own ideas about the many-worlds concept of the universe, it also is much too open-ended to work as an explanation. The multidimensional visitation hypothesis can basically be expanded to explain anything. and therefore it explains nothing. No matter how fucking stupid a particular sighting might appear, the multidimensional visitation hypothesis can accommodate it.

Secondly, Vallee is a known liar. He tells a story about being present when a rogue satellite was being tracked in the late fifties, This satellite was as bright as Sirius (according to his account) and was tracked by French experts, as well as those in other countries. Eventually the tapes were erased by the person in charge of the project - because no-one would believe them. I'm sorry- but this did not happen. Amateur astronomers would have spotted a satellite as bright as Sirius, and the teams in the other countries would have published their results long ago. Sorry, Jacques, but this is just bollocks.

 

[Carl Grove]

I must demur from the general hagiography of Jacques Vallee. Although the idea of extradimensional visitors is alluring, and is roughly in line with my own ideas about the many-worlds concept of the universe, it also is much too open-ended to work as an explanation. The multidimensional visitation hypothesis can basically be expanded to explain anything. and therefore it explains nothing. No matter how fucking stupid a particular sighting might appear, the multidimensional visitation hypothesis can accommodate it.

Secondly, Vallee is a known liar. He tells a story about being present when a rogue satellite was being tracked in the late fifties, This satellite was as bright as Sirius (according to his account) and was tracked by French experts, as well as those in other countries. Eventually the tapes were erased by the person in charge of the project - because no-one would believe them. I'm sorry- but this did not happen. Amateur astronomers would have spotted a satellite as bright as Sirius, and the teams in the other countries would have published their results long ago. Sorry, Jacques, but this is just bollocks.

True, the multidimensional theory can potentially "explain" anything, but no matter how bizarre UFO sightings get, they do comform to certain basic patterns (and Vallee was one of the pioneers of UFO classification), and it is those patterns that are important. Vallee is one of the few ufologists who hasn't been afraid to discuss all possibilities regarding the phenomenon, and I think his dismissal of the simple ETH is quite powerful and a reason to look for more exotic sources.
Vallee's interest in UFOs was known to have begun when his satellite tracking team deleted data about their sighting. Maybe one of the reasons why the data were wiped was the failure of other countries to confirm the report, or maybe officialdom knew it was something classified and ordered trackers to keep quiet. Any amateurs who reported a strange light, not matching any of the (few) satellites already in orbit, would probably have thought twice about claiming to see what would have been described as a UFO.
So I think your description of Vallee as a "known liar" is unjustified and actually quite offensive.

 

[eburacum]

He said that other countries also detected this satellite. If this event occured, we would have known about it by now; other countries would not be bound by the bizarre decision to 'erase the tapes'. Vallee is either lying, or elaborating the truth, like the science fiction author he is.

 

[eburacum]

Any amateurs who reported a strange light, not matching any of the (few) satellites already in orbit, would probably have thought twice about claiming to see what would have been described as a UFO.
.

Bullshit. Patrick Moore would have been all over a satellite as bright as Sirius, like a rash. It would have been on Sky at Night. Face it- this didn't happen.

 

[Mythopoeika]

So I think your description of Vallee as a "known liar" is unjustified and actually quite offensive.

Yes, I think it's unduly harsh to call him a liar.

 

[eburacum]

Either this event occured or it did not. I propose that it did not- we would have heard about it by now. So he is a liar.

 

[Carl Grove]

Either this event occured or it did not. I propose that it did not- we would have heard about it by now. So he is a liar.

Well, if it didn't happen there was plenty of time -- nearly 6 decades -- for someone else to come forward and deny it, and they haven't. You are the only person who has ever suggested that it wasn't true, and it is hardly that important anyway. Something happened to get Vallee interested in the phenomenon, and I can't see what motivation he would have to lie about exactly what it was. Here is what he wrote about it in his journal:

 

[eburacum]

You don't have to deny something that never happened. No-one else has ever mentioned this event, which would have been a very important occurrence in the annals of astronomy- either as the capture of a natural satellite into retrograde orbit, or the launch of a satellite using rockets that didn't exist yet. But no-one has ever confirmed it.

 

[Carl Grove]

You don't have to deny something that never happened. No-one else has ever mentioned this event, which would have been a very important occurrence in the annals of astronomy- either as the capture of a natural satellite into retrograde orbit, or the launch of a satellite using rockets that didn't exist yet. But no-one has ever confirmed it.

I'm sure you are well aware that sightings of unconventional phenomena in the skies are all potentially important occurrences, and that thousands of such reports are suppressed, ridiculed, or just ignored. From what Vallee says plenty of other trained observers saw it as well. That doesn't mean it was something ET or similar, it might be that some of the rumours about secret USAF space projects have some validity -- the point is not what it really was but that an official in charge of a tracking facility intentionally destroyed data, and that made an impact on Vallee.

 

[EnolaGaia]

... Secondly, Vallee is a known liar. He tells a story about being present when a rogue satellite was being tracked in the late fifties, This satellite was as bright as Sirius (according to his account) and was tracked by French experts, as well as those in other countries. Eventually the tapes were erased by the person in charge of the project - because no-one would believe them. I'm sorry- but this did not happen. Amateur astronomers would have spotted a satellite as bright as Sirius, and the teams in the other countries would have published their results long ago. Sorry, Jacques, but this is just bollocks.

The tape erasure episode occurred once Vallee had finished his university studies and joined both the Paris Observatory and France's National Centre for Space Studies (CNES).

This places the destruction incident no earlier than 1961. By 1961 there had been multiple satellites placed into orbit.

Vallee's story is one of the fragmentary tales that comprise the Black Knight satellite narrative (or myth, if you prefer ...). It's never been clear to me that the mystery satellite allegedly recorded on the tapes either (a) correlated with any of the other purported Black Knight sightings or (b) dated back into the Fifties (before any artificial satellites had been launched).

 

[eburacum]

If it happened in the Sixties that makes the possibility for honest error somewhat greater. In the early sixties there were a number of second-stage rockets orbiting the earth in largely un-planned and unmonitored orbits; having taken the satellites into orbit these stages were abandoned and re-entered shortly after. Maybe he saw one of those, or maybe it was just a bad observation (in the early days of space travel, even astronomers misidentified other phenomena for satellites, it seems).

So, maybe not a liar, but almost certainly an example of poor critical judgement (which is another of his faults).

 

[Fahrenheit 451]

Okay, here goes.

1. "Real" UFOs represent an extremely advanced non-human technology utilising programmable matter in the form of living machines; devices that can repair themselves, change shape and replicate. These devices are under the control of an extremely advanced intelligence that is similar to sentient godlike AI. They exist in a world of information beyond our time and place (even from the future) as a natural part of developing propulsion and associated technologies. UFOs can be associated with synchronicities or other bizarre occurrences where individuals are approached in isolation or at specific moments; for such an intelligence dealing with arrogant primitive, narcissistic simians, it's no problem, it's like a game.

2. This is the level of contact WE are capable of. Take a look at the map of UFO sightings. That's a lotof experiences.. We can barely accept other humans with different skin colors; few people can tolerate up-close interaction with alien devices on a regular basis. UFOs have maintained a level of contact over a very long time, without causing a "tipping point". Mission accomplished! The governments and militaries of the world know they are real, and growing numbers of the population. It's a game that maintains a certain level of acclimation. I believe these devices have been here for a very long time. Periodically they pass through our area, and it is easy for them to get here. We are an oasis of life that they have discovered or watched evolve.

3. If one supposes the intelligence has a deep understanding of reality, and one accepts the reality of the panop!y of "paranormal" phenomena, there is no reason to suppose it wouldn't have an understanding of that, too.

"The mystery airships of the 1860s were dirigibles with propellers, the flying saucers of the 40s and 50s had portholes and rivets, and modern UFOs put on laser light displays."

Perhaps this reinforces the " tulpa" idea - I need to revisit CG Jung's book on UFOs

 

[dr wu]

I don't think Dr Vallee needs to be defended...his contributions and efforts to uncovering the ufo enigma are well known.
Everyone makes mistakes in life and has other aspects to who they are, , but for someone ,probably with little to no experience, on a forum to call him a liar is a great disservice not to mention offensive as was mentioned above.

 

[Carl Grove]

The tape erasure episode occurred once Vallee had finished his university studies and joined both the Paris Observatory and France's National Centre for Space Studies (CNES).

This places the destruction incident no earlier than 1961. By 1961 there had been multiple satellites placed into orbit.

Vallee's story is one of the fragmentary tales that comprise the Black Knight satellite narrative (or myth, if you prefer ...). It's never been clear to me that the mystery satellite allegedly recorded on the tapes either (a) correlated with any of the other purported Black Knight sightings or (b) dated back into the Fifties (before any artificial satellites had been launched).

Yes, it was in 1961.

 

[EnolaGaia]

If it happened in the Sixties that makes the possibility for honest error somewhat greater. In the early sixties there were a number of second-stage rockets orbiting the earth in largely un-planned and unmonitored orbits; having taken the satellites into orbit these stages were abandoned and re-entered shortly after. ...

A spent booster (or similar cast-off apparatus) in the final stages of orbital decay leading into reentry could temporarily appear to be farther out in a retrograde orbit.

 

[eburacum]

I dispute that Vallee has contributed greatly to the study of UFOs. His multidimensional visitation hypothesis has opened the door to an uncritical acceptance of a wide range of bizarre phenomena, which would never have been considered seriously beforehand. This has skewed the data considerably.

 

[EnolaGaia]

The references to Sirius-like brightness and the 1961 timeframe make me wonder whether the anomalous object could have been the Echo-1 passive communications satellite. This was a metallized (Mylar) balloon launched in 1960 and used as a passive reflector platform for years. Echo-1 and its sibling Echo-2 were rated as having an apparent magnitude of circa 1.0 - not as bright as Sirius, but quite bright for a satellite at the time.

 

[eburacum]

If the Journal quoted by Carl Grove is accurate, the object Vallee saw was just above second magnitude- nowhere as bright as Sirius. My own source for this data may have been in error.

 

[eburacum]

Ah, no- he was talking about the other sighting, the one he didn't see.
https://magoniamagazine.blogspot.com/2014/02/seriously-silly.html

 

[Fahrenheit 451]

Okay, here goes.

1. "Real" UFOs represent an extremely advanced non-human technology utilising programmable matter in the form of living machines; devices that can repair themselves, change shape and replicate. These devices are under the control of an extremely advanced intelligence that is similar to sentient godlike AI. They exist in a world of information beyond our time and place (even from the future) as a natural part of developing propulsion and associated technologies. UFOs can be associated with synchronicities or other bizarre occurrences where individuals are approached in isolation or at specific moments; for such an intelligence dealing with arrogant primitive, narcissistic simians, it's no problem, it's like a game.

2. This is the level of contact WE are capable of. Take a look at the map of UFO sightings. That's a lotof experiences.. We can barely accept other humans with different skin colors; few people can tolerate up-close interaction with alien devices on a regular basis. UFOs have maintained a level of contact over a very long time, without causing a "tipping point". Mission accomplished! The governments and militaries of the world know they are real, and growing numbers of the population. It's a game that maintains a certain level of acclimation. I believe these devices have been here for a very long time. Periodically they pass through our area, and it is easy for them to get here. We are an oasis of life that they have discovered or watched evolve.

3. If one supposes the intelligence has a deep understanding of reality, and one accepts the reality of the panop!y of "paranormal" phenomena, there is no reason to suppose it wouldn't have an understanding of that, too.

I thinks it's an interesting theory with a lot of credibility. Non intervention seems an important requirement of any Space Confederation - however as we advance we slowly begin to recognise the truth.

I once read a book by an advanced aeronautics engineer that suggested UFO's might often be advanced monitoring drones from afar. He suggested that they connected strongly with historic locations of human development.

Further, he argued that earth entry limited craft to certain entry paths and speeds - going on to argue that UFO sightings fell strongly in line with predictable routes and places.

His evidence seemed strong but hard to fully understand - as a non-expert. Apologies for forgetting his name (he was British).

I think UFOs will prove to be many things - from many places and races - including our own!

 

[RustyShackleford]

I think we've gone a bit off topic here. In an effort to get us back on track I thought I'd ask if anyone knows what Vallee thought/thinks of the the original MJ 12 documents (ie the ones provided to Shandera and Tim Good)?

Also, what was/is his view, in general, of the parties that appeared to be at the centre of a number of important events in the annals of Ufology during the 1980s ie Moore/Shandera/Doty/Bennewitz etc)?