Tim Good's Source For The Original MJ 12 Papers?

[RustyShackleford]

Hello all,

I've recently been doing a bit of research into the origins of the original MJ 12 papers but have hit something of a dead end. I'm hoping someone on this board may be able to provide me with a few extra pieces of this rather complex jigsaw.

I know that the original MJ 12 documents were provided to two different groups of researchers. The first being the Bill Moore, Jamie Shandera and Stanton Friedman group, whilst the second was Tim Good.

I'm well versed in the account of how these documents were obtained by the Moore/Shandera/Friedman group (manila envelope through Shandera’s letterbox) but I'm struggling to establish how the MJ 12 documents came into Tim Good's possession.

In his book, Above Top Secret, Good states that the MJ 12 documents were 'made available' to him in early 1987, but doesn't give any further information with regards to his source. Fast forward to 2006 and with the publication of his book, Need to Know, Good reveals a little more, stating that the source was an American. Lastly, Richard Dolan has stated that Good has told him that although the source was not Richard Doty, they were probably connected to Doty.

And that is all the information I have been able to obtain on Tim Good’s source for these documents.

I have even contacted the now retried Good, via his agent, and asked him directly, if, after all this time, he’d now consider revealing his source, but sadly he declined.

As I have now come up against something of a brick wall I was wondering if anyone on here has any further information that may assist in establishing Good’s source?

Many thanks,


Rusty

 

[dr wu]

From what I have read Moore and Shandera got them in late 1984...so he could have easily got them from them....and they were both Americans.

btw..just a comment on Doty...he was well known to be disinformation agent for the AFOSI. He allegedly tried to trick multiple ufologists including Linda Howe. I wouldn't trust anything from him.

 

[RustyShackleford]

Thanks for the suggestion Dr Wu but I'm pretty certain Good didn't get them from Moore or Shandera.

I say this because, in an interview with Greg Bishop, Moore stated that his US government intelligence source, Falcon, warned him that Good had also been provided with copies of the MJ 12 documents and was going to pip Moore to the 'MJ 12 reveal' if Moore didn't get a move on (like you say, Moore had had the documents since December 1984 and spent a number of years trying to validate them). I think this indicates Good got the documents from a source other than Moore.

I agree with you regarding Doty. He's an interesting character as he was slap bang in the middle of a lot of the major UFO controversies of the 1980s, but I'd take anything he says with a pinch of salt.

 

[dr wu]

Thanks for the suggestion Dr Wu but I'm pretty certain Good didn't get them from Moore or Shandera.

I say this because, in an interview with Greg Bishop, Moore stated that his US government intelligence source, Falcon, warned him that Good had also been provided with copies of the MJ 12 documents and was going to pip Moore to the 'MJ 12 reveal' if Moore didn't get a move on (like you say, Moore had had the documents since December 1984 and spent a number of years trying to validate them). I think this indicates Good got the documents from a source other than Moore.

I agree with you regarding Doty. He's an interesting character as he was slap bang in the middle of a lot of the major UFO controversies of the 1980s, but I'd take anything he says with a pinch of salt.

Is Good dead...? At any rate I'm betting he did get them from them or someone else they knew.....and at one time 'Falcon' was also said to be 'Doty' or one of his people.
btw....I think the MJ12 stuff is likely bogus......and I have read so many ufo books in the past from various people that many of the stories contradict each other...I really don't trust many of these writers on the ufo enigma..

 

[Fahrenheit 451]

The Admiral of the Fleet the Lord Hill-Norton wrote the forward to several of Timothy Good's books - so it's fair to assume a personal friendship.

As one of the most senior UK military and NATO figures, he is a likely candidate - but thats not proven in any way.

 

[dr wu]

Since this is an MJ12 thread...who thinks the 'papers' are 'genuine' and why?
I've always thought they were a disinfo attempt by people like 'Doty'.

 

[RustyShackleford]

Is Good dead...? At any rate I'm betting he did get them from them or someone else they knew.....and at one time 'Falcon' was also said to be 'Doty' or one of his people.
btw....I think the MJ12 stuff is likely bogus......and I have read so many ufo books in the past from various people that many of the stories contradict each other...I really don't trust many of these writers on the ufo enigma..

I can report that as of a few months ago at least, Mr. Good was alive and well. I contacted him to ask if he'd now be willing to reveal his source for these documents, but he would not.

To me, it doesn't make sense that Moore and Shandera would give the MJ 12 documents to Good in 1987. They'd been working hard since December 1984 to validate the documents. If they were able to confirm these documents to be legitimate it would've been the story of the century and they would've gone down in history, so why hand them over to someone else who goes onto almost steal your 'scoop' from you? And then lie about it to Greg Bishop 20 odd years later? It doesn't make sense to me.

My bet is that whoever sent the MJ 12 documents to Shandera, wanted them publicised. Shandera and Moore were dragging their feet so in 1987 the originator of the documents decided enough was enough and sent the MJ 12 documents to Good to put pressure on Moore and Shandera to publish them. It worked as both sets of researchers notified the press of the documents existence around the same time in 1987.

I agree with you with regards to the MJ 12 documents, I think they are forgeries. What interests me is finding out who created them and for what purpose.This is why I'm trying to determine Good's source for the documents, as if we can establish this, then I think this will go some way to answering those two questions.

 

[RustyShackleford]

The Admiral of the Fleet the Lord Hill-Norton wrote the forward to several of Timothy Good's books - so it's fair to assume a personal friendship.

As one of the most senior UK military and NATO figures, he is a likely candidate - but thats not proven in any way.

Thanks for the suggestion Fahrenheit but Good stated his source was American, and Hill-Norton is British, so it couldn't have been him.

 

[Graylien]

Bill Moore seems to have had a huge effect on the path Ufology took in the 80s and 90s.

Both his early books (with Charles Berlitz) The Philadelphia Experiment and The Roswell Incident sold well and became entrenched in UFO folklore.

The Philadelphia Experiment was always rather fringe, but Roswell had many of the major researchers tied up for years arguing over various permutations of the story. Then the next cause celeb was MJ 12, and once again Moore was at the heart of it.

Then there was the bizarre incident where Moore showed up at the 1989 MUFON conference and announced he had collaborated with intelligence agents to discredit Paul Bennewitz. (Apparently in return he was promised the real truth about UFOs!)

Moores overall effect on Ufology seems to have been to keep everyone chasing red herrings while propagating the belief that the US military had its hands on some highly advanced technology it was keeping secret from Joe Public.

Was this some kind of oblique cold war intelligence operation with the ultimate aim of persuading the Soviets to suspect the US was in posession of a fearsome technological advantage over them?

 

[Fahrenheit 451]

Thanks for the suggestion Fahrenheit but Good stated his source was American, and Hill-Norton is British, so it couldn't have been him.

You don't consider he would act as a go between? It's hard to see an Admiral of the Fleet and NATO leader not maintaining influence and contacts - a much lower grade American agent involved in the mechanics of delivery.

Plus - there would be (and still is apparently) a desire to protect the source. Naming him as British might give the game away or at the least create suspicion.

 

[Comfortably Numb]

Was there not perhaps a blatant clue to the authenticity, that supposed "original* documents had text, 'blanked out', same as if released under the FOIA...

Oops...

 

[dr wu]

Was there not perhaps a blatant clue to the authenticity, that supposed "original* documents had text, 'blanked out', same as if released under the FOIA...

Oops...

Can you explain what you mean by that.....I'm not familiar with that angle to the tale.

 

[Comfortably Numb]

Can you explain what you mean by that.....I'm not familiar with that angle to the tale.

From what I recall, the bogus documents had been, 'censored', with some text 'blacked out' - same as we sometimes find on releases under the FOIA.

Problem being, they were supposed to be original copies.

Were they not also, 'planted' in government archives, with the intention that it might encourage anyone with 'insightful knowledge' to break their silence?

 

[Austin Popper]

I don't think so. There were lots of problems with the documents, but that wasn't one of them.

 

[Austin Popper]

Google image search for MJ12 documents.

 

[Comfortably Numb]

I don't think so. There were lots of problems with the documents, but that wasn't one of them.

Mmmm... see what you mean.

The hell am I thinking of then?

There was something along these lines - duly searching ye olde archives!

 

[Comfortably Numb]

This is the source of that recollection:

Shandera and his associate William Moore received a tip to go to the National Archives and Records Administration (NARA) in Maryland, where they discovered what was called the "Cutler-Twining memo." This memo, dated 1954, references a "NCS/MJ-12 Special Studies Project" but makes no further mention of MJ-12 or UFOs. The memo was later investigated as part of Project Blue Book by NARA, which found no further mention of MJ-12 (or variations on that name) in the archives.[2] The document is widely believed to be a plant due to the fact that it doesn't bear a Top Secret register number as do other documents in the series it was found in, and that its typeface cannot be matched precisely to any brand of typewriters in use in 1954.
[END]

https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Majestic_12

 

[Fahrenheit 451]

Bill Moore seems to have had a huge effect on the path Ufology took in the 80s and 90s.

Both his early books (with Charles Berlitz) The Philadelphia Experiment and The Roswell Incident sold well and became entrenched in UFO folklore.

The Philadelphia Experiment was always rather fringe, but Roswell had many of the major researchers tied up for years arguing over various permutations of the story. Then the next cause celeb was MJ 12, and once again Moore was at the heart of it.

Then there was the bizarre incident where Moore showed up at the 1989 MUFON conference and announced he had collaborated with intelligence agents to discredit Paul Bennewitz. (Apparently in return he was promised the real truth about UFOs!)

Moores overall effect on Ufology seems to have been to keep everyone chasing red herrings while propagating the belief that the US military had its hands on some highly advanced technology it was keeping secret from Joe Public.

Was this some kind of oblique cold war intelligence operation with the ultimate aim of persuading the Soviets to suspect the US was in posession of a fearsome technological advantage over them?

I think there is no doubt that the first fear of the American agencies was that the Russians had progressed ahead of them and that UFOs were a Soviet military advancement. Don't forget that the Nazi rocket scientists had gone in both directions - not just to NASA.

In time, when this fear receeded, the military realised the origins might be extra-terrestrial. They set about systematically collecting data through the likes of Project Blue Book and dismissing it (for the populace).

Then it became convenient to create the myth that UFOs were often just evidence of secret American prowess. Since the Soviet Union developed similar hardware too, disinformation became a powerful tool.

It's interesting to see the same scenario, of information collection, has restarted - which suggests the military perceives a new threat emerging (or perhaps the old one re-vitalised).

 

[Comfortably Numb]

Crescent-shaped object watched through theodolite at aerodrome:
Sun (Sydney, NSW : 1910 - 1954), Monday 18 May 1953, page 7

That's really interesting, as it might be the only other account, comparative to Arnold's clarification of his perceived observation.

Not a single, 'flying saucer' in sight, of course.


'Years later, Arnold claimed he told Bill Bequette that "they flew erratic, like a saucer if you skip it across the water." Arnold felt that he had been misquoted since the description referred to the objects' motion rather than their shape'.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kenneth_Arnold_UFO_sighting


It's called, 'undulating flight', prominent in some bird species.

Especially American White Pelicans...

 

[Comfortably Numb]

F451, thanks for taking time to post these rare old reports, it really does help to place all in perspective.

More please, if possible!

 

[feinman]

There are even more crescent-shaped objects I will post eventually.

 

[dr wu]

From what I recall, the bogus documents had been, 'censored', with some text 'blacked out' - same as we sometimes find on releases under the FOIA.

Problem being, they were supposed to be original copies.

Were they not also, 'planted' in government archives, with the intention that it might encourage anyone with 'insightful knowledge' to break their silence?

The only thing I recall is that Stanton Friedman did a search in the archives and he claimed he found that memo....Cutler- Twining..?
I don't recall the MJ12 docs that Moore and Shandera had being redacted.
A lot of unanswered questions: who sent them to those 2 'investigators'....are they genuine.....why did this person never send anything else...or come forward on their death bed....?

 

[Carl Grove]

I think there is no doubt that the first fear of the American agencies was that the Russians had progressed ahead of them and that UFOs were a Soviet military advancement. Don't forget that the Nazi rocket scientists had gone in both directions - not just to NASA.

In time, when this fear receeded, the military realised the origins might be extra-terrestrial. They set about systematically collecting data through the likes of Project Blue Book and dismissing it (for the populace).

Then it became convenient to create the myth that UFOs were often just evidence of secret American prowess. Since the Soviet Union developed similar hardware too, disinformation became a powerful tool.

It's interesting to see the same scenario, of information collection, has restarted - which suggests the military perceives a new threat emerging (or perhaps the old one re-vitalised).

Afraid I tend towards the opposite view -- the US acquired a lot of Nazi experimental stuff and were testing it in the 40s, and when they had a major crash (Roswell) they had the idea of covering it up with stories of extraterrestrials. They made just one -- but serious -- error: they called a local undertakers and ordered some child sized coffins, obviously to plant the idea of small alien bodies. But if they wanted to cover up a genuine alien crash that is the last thing they would have done! The air force must have had plenty of crates and adult sized boxes which a small body could go in.

 

[feinman]

Afraid I tend towards the opposite view -- the US acquired a lot of Nazi experimental stuff and were testing it in the 40s, and when they had a major crash (Roswell) they had the idea of covering it up with stories of extraterrestrials. They made just one -- but serious -- error: they called a local undertakers and ordered some child sized coffins, obviously to plant the idea of small alien bodies. But if they wanted to cover up a genuine alien crash that is the last thing they would have done! The air force must have had plenty of crates and adult sized boxes which a small body could go in.

So you think that all of the UFOs seen in the '40s were Nazi experimental craft that utilized a radical new technology --often with no visible means of propulsion, then we mass produced them and set them loose all over the country --flying them over cities like Portland, without letting the police or most of the military know, so that they would frantically try to engage them? And then get rid of that advanced technology and focus on things that eventually led us to things like the F-35?
And that dangerous game is still being played around the world, even today? Not alerting pilots from the Nimitz etc., and flying them over every continent, risking war, or crashes..?

 

[feinman]

These are captured Nazi craft?
https://www.project1947.com/fig/1947c.htm


"Reports of two to 20 fantastic "flying discs" over the Portland-Vancouver area Friday were confirmed by the crew of a westbound Boise-to-Portland United Airlines plane.
Their report, detailed enough to shake the most incredulous, left them equally shaken.
"No object I know of could disappear so quickly," Capt. E. J. Smith, veteran pilot of the plane, reported in an interview at Portland.

Three Sight Objects
He, First Officer Ralph Stevens and Stewardess Marty Morrow all saw the objects, which appeared to be 30 or more miles away, eight minutes after take-off from Boise at 9:04 PM, and had them -- nine in all -- under observation for an estimated 10 to 15 minutes.
Seen from approximately the same altitude, the UAL crew could give no clue to their shape, other than that they were "very thin, very flat on the bottom, and appeared to be rough or irregular on top. They are not aircraft. They are bigger than aircraft."
Scores of persons in the Portland area Friday reported seeing, "flying discs" or something like them. Most observers agree the objects were moving rapidly, apparently in formation at about 10,000 feet.
Coincidentally, the Associated Press and army officers at Fort Lewis, Wash., announced a flight of six bombers and 24 P-80 jet-propelled Shooting Stars were making a holiday demonstration flight at great altitude over Portland about the time the first "discs" were reported.

Police Cars Alerted
The first "saucers" sighted were said to be "right over" Oaks amusement park. Don Metcalfe, Oaks employee, told William LeRoy, park superintendent, that he had seen them.
An "all car" alert by Portland police radio brought reports from Patrolman Earl Patterson, in car 13, and Patrolmen Walter Lissy and Robert Ellis, in car 82, that they had spotted them.
Patterson, an air corps veteran who was at S. E. 82nd avenue and Foster road, said the discs came from the west, passed under the sun and proceeded southwesterly. They were either aluminum or eggshell white, did not flash or reflect the sun, and were traveling fast, Patterson said. It was his opinion they were not airplanes and would have to be radio controlled. They were erratic in flight, wobbling and weaving, he said.

Veterans Spy Objects
Lissy and Ellis, both veterans and civilian pilots, said they saw three discs which remained in sight about 30 seconds. They could not judge speed or height because the objects near Oaks park were traveling at "terrific speed." They heard no sound but said they saw flashes and noted erratic flight including sudden changes of direction.
Capt. K. A. Prehn of the harbor patrol, Harbor Pilot A. T. Austed and Patrolman K. C. Hoffi, who were at the Irving street headquarters of the harbor patrol, said they saw the discs going south over the Globe mills at about 10,000 feet. They seemed to oscillate, weave and turn until sometimes a full disc, sometimes only a crescent was visible.
All three said they were undecided, whether there were three or six discs because of the flashes. Captain Prehn described the sight as a "wobbling hubcap." A regular plane was in the sky at the time, but these were not planes, they agreed."

 

[Carl Grove]

So you think that all of the UFOs seen in the '40s were Nazi experimental craft that utilized a radical new technology --often with no visible means of propulsion, then we mass produced them and set them loose all over the country --flying them over cities like Portland, without letting the police or most of the military know, so that they would frantically try to engage them? And then get rid of that advanced technology and focus on things that eventually led us to things like the F-35?
And that dangerous game is still being played around the world, even today? Not alerting pilots from the Nimitz etc., and flying them over every continent, risking war, or crashes..?

By no means do I think all UFOs are experimental craft! But I don't think they are necessarily ET. I am merely observing that the situation is a lot more complicated than we would like -- there is a real phenomenon, there are Terrestrial experiments in antigravity, some of them of Nazi origin, and there are campaigns of disinformation. It is a real hall of mirrors and I don't think there are going to be any easy answers.

 

[feinman]

I think that the situation is complicated too, and with much misinformation and secrecy from the US and other governments, though I do believe that the core of the phenomenon is ET.

 

[dr wu]

I think that the situation is complicated too, and with much misinformation and secrecy from the US and other governments, though I do believe that the core of the phenomenon is ET.

Can you define what you mean by 'core of the phenomenon'...?
And give some thoughts on why ET are doing what they are doing (whatever that might be) and yet not contacting humans on an open basis , what's the point? And since you support the ETH hypothesis can you 'explain' why there are so many different looking ufo craft and alleged ET's over the last 5 or 6 decades? Does this make sense to you?

 

[RustyShackleford]

This is the source of that recollection:

Shandera and his associate William Moore received a tip to go to the National Archives and Records Administration (NARA) in Maryland, where they discovered what was called the "Cutler-Twining memo." This memo, dated 1954, references a "NCS/MJ-12 Special Studies Project" but makes no further mention of MJ-12 or UFOs. The memo was later investigated as part of Project Blue Book by NARA, which found no further mention of MJ-12 (or variations on that name) in the archives.[2] The document is widely believed to be a plant due to the fact that it doesn't bear a Top Secret register number as do other documents in the series it was found in, and that its typeface cannot be matched precisely to any brand of typewriters in use in 1954.
[END]

https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Majestic_12

Having done a fair bit of research on the origins of MJ 12 I can confirm the 'Cutler -Twining Memo' was indeed found by Moore and Shandera at NARA, following a tip off.

For the reasons outlined above I too believe this to be a plant. I think it was planted by the person or persons who fabricated the MJ 12 documents that had been sent to Shandera. The reason being, the fabricator(s) wanted to convince Moore and Shandera that the MJ 12 documents were genuine and thought if they could make it appear as if Moore and Shandera had obtained some 'verification' of MJ 12 from an independent source (i.e. NARA), then Moore and Shandera would be more likely to take the bait.

As Dr Wu points out above, this still leaves us with the questions of who created these documents and why? If we could identify Tim Goods source then I'm sure we'd be a little closer to getting the answers we're looking for.

 

[feinman]

Okay, here goes.

1. "Real" UFOs represent an extremely advanced non-human technology utilising programmable matter in the form of living machines; devices that can repair themselves, change shape and replicate. These devices are under the control of an extremely advanced intelligence that is similar to sentient godlike AI. They exist in a world of information beyond our time and place (even from the future) as a natural part of developing propulsion and associated technologies. UFOs can be associated with synchronicities or other bizarre occurrences where individuals are approached in isolation or at specific moments; for such an intelligence dealing with arrogant primitive, narcissistic simians, it's no problem, it's like a game.

2. This is the level of contact WE are capable of. Take a look at the map of UFO sightings. That's a lotof experiences.. We can barely accept other humans with different skin colors; few people can tolerate up-close interaction with alien devices on a regular basis. UFOs have maintained a level of contact over a very long time, without causing a "tipping point". Mission accomplished! The governments and militaries of the world know they are real, and growing numbers of the population. It's a game that maintains a certain level of acclimation. I believe these devices have been here for a very long time. Periodically they pass through our area, and it is easy for them to get here. We are an oasis of life that they have discovered or watched evolve.

3. If one supposes the intelligence has a deep understanding of reality, and one accepts the reality of the panop!y of "paranormal" phenomena, there is no reason to suppose it wouldn't have an understanding of that, too.