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Holocaust Denial

I just watched the footage and I couldn't understand what she meant until the penny dropped and I realised she thought skin colour and race were the same thing.

Which you say is closer to being accurate in the United States but certainly is not most other places in the world.

It really, really is not.

This is not holocaust denialism, it's plain ignorance.

She doesn't understand what a/the holocaust is or what the word 'race' means.

It's like my saying 2+2 = cabbage.

It isn't really wrong, it doesn't even qualify as an answer to be judged.
Not everyone in the US thinks of race as only a concept of skin color. In my birth family, race also connoted different than a standard, based on birth, similar to Kipling’s term ‘breed.” So, these peoples were not considered white: Jews, Arabs, Turks, and Greeks, and lots of others who do consider themselves white.

Yithian, in your part of the world, how is race generally defined?
 
Not everyone in the US thinks of race as only a concept of skin color. In my birth family, race also connoted different than a standard, based on birth, similar to Kipling’s term ‘breed.” So, these peoples were not considered white: Jews, Arabs, Turks, and Greeks, and lots of others who do consider themselves white.

Yithian, in your part of the world, how is race generally defined?
'Race' regarding humans, is a socio/economic construct, not a biological one. We are all the same race., Homo Sapiens. It is, frankly, a disgusting and divisive concept which should be consigned to history.
 
'Race' regarding humans, is a socio/economic construct, not a biological one. We are all the same race., Homo Sapiens. It is, frankly, a disgusting and divisive concept which should be consigned to history.

We are all the same species, I'm not entirely certain what is meant by "race" and how it differs from "ethnicity" but apparently they are different.

Even if the terms are largely meaningless: who is going to say a white Scandinavian, a Maasai, a Samoan, and an Inuit are all the same race or ethnicity? I appreciate that "race" does not exist scientifically speaking but that's not much comfort to someone on the receiving end of racism is it? I don't know where this leaves us but there it is.
 
'Race' regarding humans, is a socio/economic construct, not a biological one. We are all the same race., Homo Sapiens. It is, frankly, a disgusting and divisive concept which should be consigned to history.
We are all the same specie, homo sapiens. To use racial descriptors can be useful in some circumstances such as missing child alerts. Where I live, Arizona, missing child alerts always contain racial or ethnic descriptors, for example, Hispanic, Native American, or Black. So I think it has some beneficial uses. Of course, this does nothing to prevent people using it to denigrate others which is despicable.

Differences in skin color, height, head shape, etc., are generally based on biological factors, not socioeconomic ones.
 
Interesting, because I am British, Polish and a bit German - very pale and blonde, green eyes.
My husband is exactly the same ethnic family background, yet he has black wavy hair (well now it's greying!), olive skin and brown eyes.
He has many times been taken for Italian or Spanish, so it seems to me that going back hundreds of years none of us know where our ancestors were, or who they interacted with.
Yes, we've gotten the 'looks' and 'comments' from others, not that it bothers me, I don't need anyone's approval.
Someone I've known for years said to me one day that 'sometimes very pale women are attracted to men who have a bit darker skin', and I suppose that might be true - but isn't attraction one of those things that Darwin (or somebody, one of those scientists) theorized is for the perpetuation of the species??
 
We are all the same species, I'm not entirely certain what is meant by "race" and how it differs from "ethnicity" but apparently they are different.

Even if the terms are largely meaningless: who is going to say a white Scandinavian, a Maasai, a Samoan, and an Inuit are all the same race or ethnicity? I appreciate that "race" does not exist scientifically speaking but that's not much comfort to someone on the receiving end of racism is it? I don't know where this leaves us but there it is.
It's a strange thing - please see my post above, I always feel that we are not accepted by the Polish people in the area, even though hubby and I are both of Polish descent.
And then there's the blood thing too - my blood type is B+, one of the rarer types, which showed up 15,000 years ago in the Himalayan mountain area, definitely Eastern European.
 
We are all the same species, I'm not entirely certain what is meant by "race" and how it differs from "ethnicity" but apparently they are different.

Even if the terms are largely meaningless: who is going to say a white Scandinavian, a Maasai, a Samoan, and an Inuit are all the same race or ethnicity? I appreciate that "race" does not exist scientifically speaking but that's not much comfort to someone on the receiving end of racism is it? I don't know where this leaves us but there it is.
I know I'm being idealistic :). But with global movement being what it is, in 200 years time will the current divisive concept of 'race' be tenable?
 
I know I'm being idealistic :). But with global movement being what it is, in 200 years time will the current divisive concept of 'race' be tenable?

I'm sure we'll have found something else to divide us by then.

I dunno, you hear about all this progress made in tolerance and every year it seems nothing has changed at all. I know I'm not biting my tongue because of urges to be racist, sexist or whatever prejudice is around, but there are billions of people who appear to be, and worse, billions who lean on prejudice anyway. Sometimes I think we'll never learn. A lot of the time I think that, really.
 
We are all the same specie, homo sapiens. To use racial descriptors can be useful in some circumstances such as missing child alerts. Where I live, Arizona, missing child alerts always contain racial or ethnic descriptors, for example, Hispanic, Native American, or Black. So I think it has some beneficial uses. Of course, this does nothing to prevent people using it to denigrate others which is despicable.
Very strange being brought up by a British Mum and Polish Dad, who were very worldly and European, and extremely non-biased.
They took us to Roman Catholic Churches, Protestant, Polish National Catholic, Baptist, all kinds of faiths to see and understand different people. It was very good of them, but unfortunately the world really is not that way.
 
Interesting, because I am British, Polish and a bit German - very pale and blonde, green eyes.
My husband is exactly the same ethnic family background, yet he has black wavy hair (well now it's greying!), olive skin and brown eyes.
He has many times been taken for Italian or Spanish, so it seems to me that going back hundreds of years none of us know where our ancestors were, or who they interacted with.
Yes, we've gotten the 'looks' and 'comments' from others, not that it bothers me, I don't need anyone's approval.
Someone I've known for years said to me one day that 'sometimes very pale women are attracted to men who have a bit darker skin', and I suppose that might be true - but isn't attraction one of those things that Darwin (or somebody, one of those scientists) theorized is for the perpetuation of the species??
I am Polish, German, and Irish, but also have some Jewish and western Asian ancestry. My mother looked like Genghis Khan (yes I know Mongolia is considered Eastern Asia). I have blond curly hair and blue eyes. When I was in Russia, people thought I was Ukrainian and treated me well or not based on what they wanted from me.

The fun will start when we can ascertain genes in us from outer space :) "Alpha Centaurians are soooo superior to Pleadians."

ps - I was not fully accepted in my little ethnic Polish community because my father was not Polish. I vaguely think alot of prejudice is based in perceived economic threats from the Other to the status quo. RJ, I think you and I had similar experiences.
 
I am Polish, German, and Irish, but also have some Jewish and western Asian ancestry. My mother looked like Genghis Khan (yes I know Mongolia is considered Eastern Asia). I have blond curly hair and blue eyes. When I was in Russia, people thought I was Ukrainian and treated me well or not based on what they wanted from me.

The fun will start when we can ascertain genes in us from outer space :) "Alpha Centaurians are soooo superior to Pleadians."
I'm English, Italian and Franco-Swiss, with Welsh complications and goodness knows what else further back. It's really all too esoteric to go into and thus I'm just me. My first wife was Irish, my second wife half German and half Edinburgh Scots. My best mate for many years was a Liverpool supporter from the Caribbean who married a Polish lass.

I'm proud of being recently adopted Irish.

All the above is geography and culture, not race. Surely we are all ultimately descended from Africans?
 
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I know I'm being idealistic :). But with global movement being what it is, in 200 years time will the current divisive concept of 'race' be tenable?

The "global" movement is in recession, there's a rise of nationalism across the world. Even if it wasn't people will quite happily fear and hate one another for any fucking reason whatsoever: race, religion, sect, class, region, football team, disability, job, politics, any random aspect of appearance or quirk of behaviour etc. The difference need only be tiny, look at the vitriol between varying Fortean perspectives, or people hating people from the next village or another part of the same village.

We evolved to live in extended families or tribes and hence are inherently tribal, feeling part of an In Group and defining yourselves against an Out Group is unfortunately part of who we are.
 
The "global" movement is in recession, there's a rise of nationalism across the world. Even if it wasn't people will quite happily fear and hate one another for any fucking reason whatsoever: race, religion, sect, class, region, football team, disability, job, politics, any random aspect of appearance or quirk of behaviour etc. The difference need only be tiny, look at the vitriol between varying Fortean perspectives, or people hating people from the next village or another part of the same village.

We evolved to live in extended families or tribes and hence are inherently tribal, feeling part of an In Group and defining yourselves against an Out Group is unfortunately part of who we are.
You might be right, my Mum always told me to 'Be Kind' to everyone, because you have no idea what their life is like, she was so correct!
 
I hate the morally superior - and feel very virtuous in doing so.
That might be a very profound statement :)

Seriously, everyone has to find their own truth. I certainly made a lot of blunders before i found mine, which i won't expound here, the subject of this thread being so serious.
 
We all know there is only one race of humans (or at least since homo sapiens sapiens superseded homo sapiens neanderthalensis) but the terms "racist" and "racism" still exist to describe hatred of or discrimination against people of a different skin colour/culture/ethnicity.
Until "racism" is replaced by a more technically correct term, we are stuck with it.
The way the Nazis treated the Jews clearly comes under the description of racism, despite what Ms. Goldberg may believe.
 
'Race' regarding humans, is a socio/economic construct, not a biological one. We are all the same race., Homo Sapiens. It is, frankly, a disgusting and divisive concept which should be consigned to history.

Exactly ... The term "race" has no definitive meaning with regard to human biological lineage. It's a social construct, and its definition, criteria, categories, and specifications vary with the societies and cultures within which such racial distinctions have developed.

It was recognized as having more to do with socio-cultural affiliations than personal bodyhood / lineage back in ancient times, when (e.g.) the Greeks and Romans considered physical features to vary with respect to environmental factors rather than anything to do with inheritance of permanent form. Back then allusions to "race" were approximately identical to what we now call "ethnicity" (which is defined in purely socio-cultural terms).

The more recent framing of "race" as categories of biological lineages is a much later development, having arisen in Europe circa the 16th through 18th centuries in conjunction with both emergent naturalists' penchant for taxonomic classifications and explorations that had revealed human diversity worldwide. Allegedly 'scientific' and pseudo-scientific racial classification schemes added to the set of classifications available.

Goldberg's error was projecting the merely skin-deep criteria defining her native country's constructs about race (prominent in her life as a black woman of her generation) onto a past European scene within which "races" were identified using (e.g.) more detailed and specialized criteria than skin color alone (as was the case in her own cultural / historical milieu). Her even bigger error was trying to express a single point framed with sloppy regard to two mismatched classification schemes (and insufficient acknowledgement of the differences between them).
 
We all know there is only one race of humans (or at least since homo sapiens sapiens superseded homo sapiens neanderthalensis) but the terms "racist" and "racism" still exist to describe hatred of or discrimination against people of a different skin colour/culture/ethnicity.
Until "racism" is replaced by a more technically correct term, we are stuck with it.
The way the Nazis treated the Jews clearly comes under the description of racism, despite what Ms. Goldberg may believe.
Ms Goldberg should be fired from her position, just my opinion -
look what happened to Roseanne Barr, who was the huge star of her hit show and was fired, for making a derogatory comment about someone.
 
I think Golberg expressed herself badly, and got herself tangled up with the American concept of race as being entirely about colour.

However, she had a valid point that the Holocaust was about man's inhumanity to man. The Nazis murdered Jews (a race, a culture, an ethnic group, a religious group), Gypsies (a race, an ethnic group, a culture), homosexuals (nothing to do with race etc.) and many disabled people (also nothing to do with race etc.), and were guilty of various massacres of prisoners of war.

In one sense, it was very much about race: a so called "master race" eliminating a so called "inferior race". In another equally valid sense, it was simply about bastards being bastards because they were "permitted" to be so by the mores of the times.

It is a bad thing when only one narrative is allowed. There is seldom a single simple explanation for a complex phenomenon like the Holocaust. Punishing people for poorly expressed attempts to provide a different, but generally well-intentioned analysis is wrong.

The Nazis tried to impose one narrative and restrict freedom of thought and expression.

I don't think Goldberg was speaking in support of the Holocaust, or Nazis, or against the Jewish people. She may well be ignorant of the details, and have a naive and insular view of what "race" means, but she was basically saying that the Holocaust was about Very Bad People doing Very Bad Things to innocent people.
 
I'm English, Italian and Franco-Swiss, with Welsh complications and goodness knows what else further back. It's really all too esoteric to go into and thus I'm just me. My first wife was Irish, my second wife half German and half Edinburgh Scots. My best mate for many years was a Liverpool supporter from the Caribbean who married a Polish lass.

I'm proud of being recently adopted Irish.

All the above is geography and culture, not race. Surely we are all ultimately descended from Africans?

Sorry to pick on you here again, Cochise, for what it's worth I (obviously) don't know you but have always considered you a thoughtful person and a good bloke but, you have just listed a load of European nations. All of whom would be considered white by virtually everyone.

We've all pointed out there's no scientific basis for "race" but no one would call you the "n-word" would they? Whereas if you mix included Jamaican, Nigerian, Kenyan, Congolese and Ghanaian, some no doubt would.

Race = people who look certain ways in the popular imagination, especially the racist popular imagination. I, sadly, don't see a way around it.
 
Besides the inaccuracies and oversimplification of her remarks, they also lacked insight. Yes people can be awful if not downright horrific to each other, but genocide is on a completely different level to 'everyday' inhumanity. It is systemic, determined and unforgiving. If we're to take anything away from the holocaust, it's not that people are bad, or even the horrific end result, but how the environment for genocide was nurtured then accepted and in time, executed.
 
I find Ms Goldberg's comments particularly offensive in that she has had a wonderfully entitled and privileged career, she would do well to keep her thoughts to herself, the public can be very fickle.
 
Exactly ... The term "race" has no definitive meaning with regard to human biological lineage. It's a social construct, and its definition, criteria, categories, and specifications vary with the societies and cultures within which such racial distinctions have developed.

It was recognized as having more to do with socio-cultural affiliations than personal bodyhood / lineage back in ancient times, when (e.g.) the Greeks and Romans considered physical features to vary with respect to environmental factors rather than anything to do with inheritance of permanent form. Back then allusions to "race" were approximately identical to what we now call "ethnicity" (which is defined in purely socio-cultural terms).

The more recent framing of "race" as categories of biological lineages is a much later development, having arisen in Europe circa the 16th through 18th centuries in conjunction with both emergent naturalists' penchant for taxonomic classifications and explorations that had revealed human diversity worldwide. Allegedly 'scientific' and pseudo-scientific racial classification schemes added to the set of classifications available.

Goldberg's error was projecting the merely skin-deep criteria defining her native country's constructs about race (prominent in her life as a black woman of her generation) onto a past European scene within which "races" were identified using (e.g.) more detailed and specialized criteria than skin color alone (as was the case in her own cultural / historical milieu). Her even bigger error was trying to express a single point framed with sloppy regard to two mismatched classification schemes (and insufficient acknowledgement of the differences between them).
It is infrequently that I disagree with EnolaGaia, and even less frequently that I will post my disagreement. But this is one:

People all belong to the same specie: a proof of this is that we can interbreed resulting in fertile offspring. That visibly, genetically, different varieties of humanity exist is also true. These varieties can be labelled with different labels or terms. Race is one term; in the US, this applies to the broad divisions of looking like most of one’s ancestry originated in Europe, Asia, Africa, or the Americas. More problematic in terms of race are the Pacific Islanders, Aboriginal Australians, Bantu, and other, smaller groups. In the US, race is different than ethnic group, which is a smaller subdivision within a race. So, ethnic French and ethnic Russians can be both European racially, but different ethnicities.

These visible differences are heritable via genetics. There are some invisible differences as well, such as the genes which transmit varieties of sickle cell anemia. Yes, some European people coming from the Mediterranean can have this as well, but to date it is an overwhelming African genetic disease. I think that the visible differences themselves evolve over time: for example, dark skinned pre-Beaker people in Great Britain.

But for the current moment, these differences exist and are at least loosely associated with continent of origin. When examined in detail and noting the exceptions, this race and ethnic group categorization breaks down, like many categories dealing with biology. (I love cacti and how the cacti families and species are always being re-organized. It never flipping ends as weird exceptions are found and shoe-horned in somewhere. Cacti have high genetic variability, as do humans.)

Whatever the term used to denote these different groups will, it seems, inevitably be used to assign a social, political or economic status. This is an unfortunate part of human nature.

To deny that these difference exist on a physical basis because of disagreement of the social status assignment is not good science. I suspect that this well-intentioned effort will have unintended consequences.

The problem is not with different types of people, nor the categorization schemes (races, breeds, ethnic groups, etc.), but with the use of these terms for in-group and out-group distinctions. Long after we are all dead, I hope that these differences will disappear, both genetically and socially. And the sooner the better!

As to the point that we are all one race: to argue by analogy (God forgive me), if we were discussing dogs, and claimed that all dogs were one race, then the differences between great danes and miniature poodles would have no genetic basis.

I am a mongrel genetically, with input from a wide variety of ancestors. But I look white enough to be a target for some nonwhites to act out on me. I think my claiming “But we are the same race!” will not deter them, as they identify me, based on physical aspects, as an out-group member to them. It is the social construct, not the physical reality, which is the problem.
 
Not everyone in the US thinks of race as only a concept of skin color. In my birth family, race also connoted different than a standard, based on birth, similar to Kipling’s term ‘breed.” So, these peoples were not considered white: Jews, Arabs, Turks, and Greeks, and lots of others who do consider themselves white.

Yithian, in your part of the world, how is race generally defined?

Enola Gaia has covered a lot of my answer while I slept.

With the overarching caveat that biologically there is one human race, race, culturally speaking, is:

A 'family resemblance' of physical traits associated with a common heritage; history, language, homeland and religion being chief among them. I incline towards the belief that an identifiably shared history is the most important of these markers of heritage.

There is some space for self-identification on the fringes, but as a rule, and perhaps unfortunately, one's race is an accident of birth and (re-)enforced by the perceptions of others.

Malaysia, India, Russia and China are teeming with examples of distinct and semi-distinct races sharing skin colour and, often, living cheek by jowl.
 
To a man with only a hammer, every problem is a nail.
And Goldberg has found herself in a situation defined, outlined yet confined by her narrow view of race which seems quite exclusive. Or should that be inclusive.
The Nazis described themselves as The Master Race and viewed just about every other race as inferior. To even consider the persecution and the horrific atrocities the Nazis carried out as anything other than murderous race hate committed on an industrial scale of unbelievable cruelty shows an incredible lack of understanding and empathy. For that reason alone, she should be dropped from the show and the station should make a full and sincere apology.
 
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Might have mentioned it before, but if a family story is correct, I'm one-sixteenth Jewish. I definitely know I'm one-sixteenth Irish from a known ancestor: but this isn't enough to get me a passport, alas. I have made inquiries. Similarly, that one-sixteenth is on the paternal side and it's not enough for me to count as Jewish to Jews. I've never really felt any sort of "tug" in that direction, anyway. Otherwise irrelevant except in one very blackly ironic sense: it would have mattered to Heinrich Himmler. That putative one-sixteenth would have marked me down as "mischlinge" - mixed race - and in 1930's Germany would have had real consequences. Possibly not a one-way ticket to "resettlement", but restricted citizenship, being debarred from government employment, not being able to rise beyond a certain promotion level in employment, compulsory sterilization lest I passed the taint on. When it gets so crazy that only the Nazis, with their meticulous racial classification bureaucracy, would consider me Jewish. So it is kind of worrying that this sort of thinking is on the rise again.
 
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