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Not As Environmentally Friendly As Promised

Todays UK newspapers are pretty much all carrying headlines (or at least main articles within the first few pages) warning of the chances of electrical 'blackouts' during the coming winter.
But what I also notice is they also refer to energy companies offering payments to people to use their 'appliances' (oo-er missus) at night, and for the first time I have seen advice about 'charging electric vehicles at off-peak periods'.
 
Think I saw something about the wrong sort of wind or not enough wind which is doubtless due to climate change.
 
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The wind turbines (windmills) only have a limited operating range. Too windy and they have to be locked in place and prevented from turning to try and avoid damaging them. Not enough wind and they don't produce any electric.
Which is why, for any wind/solar power production, there needs to be an equal amount of traditional power production to be readily available at all times.
 
Trevp666 said:
The wind turbines (windmills) only have a limited operating range. Too windy and they have to be locked in place and prevented from turning to try and avoid damaging them. Not enough wind and they don't produce any electric.
Which is why, for any wind/solar power production, there needs to be an equal amount of traditional power production to be readily available at all times.
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There's a quantity call 'load factor' which is the percentage of the maximum generating rate (or 'nameplate value') which is actually delivered. For current nuclear power stations it's around 70% iirc (feel free to check).

For onshore wind it's about 22%. In the early days (c.2004-5) it was claimed to be 35% or more. This means in reality that a 10MW wind turbine produces on average 2.22MW (onshore) and 3.41MW (offshore).

Here's two handy graphs showing this:

screenshot-2022-07-21-at-12.32.33-1.webp


screenshot-2022-10-02-at-10.57.42.webp


https://wattsupwiththat.com/2022/10/05/a-few-graphs-say-it-all-for-weather-dependent-renewables-2/

It helps to convert everything into watts - for example a solar PV panel claims output (at the optimum angle, weather etc) that are some way adrift of the long term averaged output in watts, which is some 20-30W per square meter. One that's done, it's clear that solar PV is not that useful for baseline grid supply.

Despite claims this hasn't changed significantly in the last decade or two.
 
I occasionally check the web page for the national grid which shows the current demand and the ways in which that is satisfied through the various means of supply.
It's very telling.
It is ideal wind conditions today, so about 48% of the 30.1gw demand is being covered by wind.
However, that drops considerably when the wind dies down (obviously) and the average for the whole of the past month has been 28.7% from wind.
Over the course of an entire year, fossil fuels deliver by far and away the greatest percent of our power, accounting for nearly half our annual demand. Nuclear constantly gives us about 16-18 %.
https://grid.iamkate.com/
1665152909668.png
 
Trevp666 said:
I occasionally check the web page for the national grid which shows the current demand and the ways in which that is satisfied through the various means of supply.
It's very telling.
It is ideal wind conditions today, so about 48% of the 30.1gw demand is being covered by wind.
However, that drops considerably when the wind dies down (obviously) and the average for the whole of the past month has been 28.7% from wind.
Over the course of an entire year, fossil fuels deliver by far and away the greatest percent of our power, accounting for nearly half our annual demand. Nuclear constantly gives us about 16-18 %.
https://grid.iamkate.com/
View attachment 59653
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That's a great web page, I love it. :)
 
An interesting paragraph from Wikipedia regarding Lithium batteries:

"Over the years opinions have been differing about potential growth. A 2008 study concluded that "realistically achievable lithium carbonate production would be sufficient for only a small fraction of future PHEV and EV global market requirements", that "demand from the portable electronics sector will absorb much of the planned production increases in the next decade", and that "mass production of lithium carbonate is not environmentally sound, it will cause irreparable ecological damage to ecosystems that should be protected and that LiIon propulsion is incompatible with the notion of the 'Green Car'".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium#Precautions
 
Coal said:
That's a great web page, I love it. :)
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When you look at that it is interesting that you can see that we (as I write this) are exporting some electric to France, Belgium and The Netherlands.
 
Trevp666 said:
When you look at that it is interesting that you can see that we (as I write this) are exporting some electric to France, Belgium and The Netherlands.
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Yea, when you posted the link we were exporting a GW to France. Have to say it's quite interesting (for a certain kinda person...). I like that our current total UK energy generation is there as well.
 
Interesting power generation today, hardly any wind to speak of, we're (UK) mostly running on fossil fuels and even coal is putting in a GW. I wonder if at one coal station is kept spinning ('idling') all the time, as it takes quite some time to get a coal power station running and even then, time to get it synchronised to the grid.

https://grid.iamkate.com/
 
Coal said:
Interesting power generation today, hardly any wind to speak of, we're (UK) mostly running on fossil fuels and even coal is putting in a GW. I wonder if at one coal station is kept spinning ('idling') all the time, as it takes quite some time to get a coal power station running and even then, time to get it synchronised to the grid.

https://grid.iamkate.com/
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Gas power stations fire up pretty quickly.
 
On average 10 hours from cold I suppose but don’t know that they use pulverised coal and flash steam boilers they do have gas turbine stations as in turbo shaft jet engines that can start up very fast but are very expensive to run
 

BBC prepares secret scripts for possible use in winter blackouts​


The BBC has prepared secret scripts that could be read on air if energy shortages cause blackouts or the loss of gas supplies this winter.

The scripts set out how the corporation would reassure the public in the event that a “major loss of power” causes mobile phone networks, internet access, banking systems or traffic lights to fail across England, Wales and Scotland. Northern Ireland would be unaffected because its electricity grid is shared with the Republic of Ireland.

The public would be advised to use car radios or battery-powered receivers to listen to emergency broadcasts on FM and long-wave frequencies usually reserved for Radio 2 and Radio 4.

One draft BBC script warns that a blackout could last for up to two days, with hospitals and police placed under “extreme pressure”.

https://www.theguardian.com/media/2...-scripts-for-possible-use-in-winter-blackouts

maximus otter
 
maximus otter said:

BBC prepares secret scripts for possible use in winter blackouts​


The BBC has prepared secret scripts that could be read on air if energy shortages cause blackouts or the loss of gas supplies this winter.

The scripts set out how the corporation would reassure the public in the event that a “major loss of power” causes mobile phone networks, internet access, banking systems or traffic lights to fail across England, Wales and Scotland. Northern Ireland would be unaffected because its electricity grid is shared with the Republic of Ireland.

The public would be advised to use car radios or battery-powered receivers to listen to emergency broadcasts on FM and long-wave frequencies usually reserved for Radio 2 and Radio 4.

One draft BBC script warns that a blackout could last for up to two days, with hospitals and police placed under “extreme pressure”.

https://www.theguardian.com/media/2...-scripts-for-possible-use-in-winter-blackouts

maximus otter
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Time to put in for my shotgun licence then?
 
Considering that across the countries of europe, they have filled their gas reserves now to 92% of their capacity, and wholesale 'day ahead' gas prices (which have varied considerably higher than usual throughout the year) have now been dropping for several weeks, and are continuing to fall (due to lack of demand caused by reserves being filled up).
The current 'day ahead' wholesale price is now below that which it was this time last year, and there are a glut of LNG tankers sitting outside ports around the coasts of Europe, waiting for unloading because the terminals can only process so much at a time.
I don't think here in the UK we are really likely to have a problem.
IMO it's just yet another 'scare-mongering' exercise being carried out, like only a couple of months ago when we were being told that extreme heat was going to kill thousands of people in the UK (it didn't), and previous to that when we had some quite heavy rain for a few days and we were basically all told that the UK was going to sink (or some extreme nonsense like that), and of course claims that the NHS is about to collapse due to being over-run in a winter crisis.
Like our newspapers and the BBC tell us it will EVERY. SINGLE. YEAR.
1666169920405.png
 
maximus otter said:

BBC prepares secret scripts for possible use in winter blackouts​


The BBC has prepared secret scripts that could be read on air if energy shortages cause blackouts or the loss of gas supplies this winter.

The scripts set out how the corporation would reassure the public in the event that a “major loss of power” causes mobile phone networks, internet access, banking systems or traffic lights to fail across England, Wales and Scotland. Northern Ireland would be unaffected because its electricity grid is shared with the Republic of Ireland.

The public would be advised to use car radios or battery-powered receivers to listen to emergency broadcasts on FM and long-wave frequencies usually reserved for Radio 2 and Radio 4.

One draft BBC script warns that a blackout could last for up to two days, with hospitals and police placed under “extreme pressure”.

https://www.theguardian.com/media/2...-scripts-for-possible-use-in-winter-blackouts

maximus otter
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Does this belong in the irony thread.

Many people won't have power to listen to them.
 
Trevp666 said:
Considering that across the countries of europe, they have filled their gas reserves now to 92% of their capacity, and wholesale 'day ahead' gas prices (which have varied considerably higher than usual throughout the year) have now been dropping for several weeks, and are continuing to fall (due to lack of demand caused by reserves being filled up).
The current 'day ahead' wholesale price is now below that which it was this time last year, and there are a glut of LNG tankers sitting outside ports around the coasts of Europe, waiting for unloading because the terminals can only process so much at a time.
I don't think here in the UK we are really likely to have a problem.
IMO it's just yet another 'scare-mongering' exercise being carried out, like only a couple of months ago when we were being told that extreme heat was going to kill thousands of people in the UK (it didn't), and previous to that when we had some quite heavy rain for a few days and we were basically all told that the UK was going to sink (or some extreme nonsense like that), and of course claims that the NHS is about to collapse due to being over-run in a winter crisis.
Like our newspapers and the BBC tell us it will EVERY. SINGLE. YEAR.
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Seems strange that in the 80s/ 90s the big push was to go to diesel cars as being cheaper to run, then after selling millions the push then is to ban diesels and the cost of diesel goes up above petrol to also kill them off. We mostly all switch back to petrol and then the call goes out to ban petrol cars and switch to electric. On this basis, I am predicting that when shareholders have exhausted the growth on electric cars we will be onto hydrogen powered vehicles:)

Likewise Condensing boilers were pushed in the 90s/2000s and conventional boilers killed off in the push to make boilers more 'efficient', then, when most of us have those we are 'encouraged' to change to air source heating for the good of the environment and, when that doesn't seem to be happening at a quick enough rate, by high gas prices and threat of gas shortage.
 
Giant R said:
Seems strange that in the 80s/ 90s the big push was to go to diesel cars as being cheaper to run, then after selling millions the push then is to ban diesels and the cost of diesel goes up above petrol to also kill them off. We mostly all switch back to petrol and then the call goes out to ban petrol cars and switch to electric. On this basis, I am predicting that when shareholders have exhausted the growth on electric cars we will be onto hydrogen powered vehicles:)

Likewise Condensing boilers were pushed in the 90s/2000s and conventional boilers killed off in the push to make boilers more 'efficient', then, when most of us have those we are 'encouraged' to change to air source heating for the good of the environment and, when that doesn't seem to be happening at a quick enough rate, by high gas prices and threat of gas shortage.
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Yep. Same with lightbulbs; started off for a few years with those 'energy saving' ones that were about as much use as a candle, and then onto led's.
 
Giant R said:
Seems strange
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No it doesn't. You've pretty much nailed it with your observation about 'the shareholders' etc.
None of any of it is ever actually to do with any supposed environmental benefit of any sort whatsoever.
It's all down to how much money people can make out of it.
That's why (avoiding the political discourse avenue which the rest of this observation could go down) a large amount of revenue from our energy bills goes straight into the hands of the companies that make wind farms and solar panels.
 
Giant R said:
Seems strange that in the 80s/ 90s the big push was to go to diesel cars as being cheaper to run, then after selling millions the push then is to ban diesels and the cost of diesel goes up above petrol to also kill them off. We mostly all switch back to petrol and then the call goes out to ban petrol cars and switch to electric. On this basis, I am predicting that when shareholders have exhausted the growth on electric cars we will be onto hydrogen powered vehicles:)

Likewise Condensing boilers were pushed in the 90s/2000s and conventional boilers killed off in the push to make boilers more 'efficient', then, when most of us have those we are 'encouraged' to change to air source heating for the good of the environment and, when that doesn't seem to be happening at a quick enough rate, by high gas prices and threat of gas shortage.
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It's an odd 'ratchet effect', with only one aim in mind... to extract more money from our wallets.
 
Oh this has been well known for some quite considerable time.
The problem lies with those who keep foisting the net-zero agenda on us, putting their fingers in their ears, and going '"a-la-la-la-la......I can't hear you!".
I see China has turned round and basically said "Yeah, that net-zero thing that we were quite happy to go along with?.....yeah....we're not bothering any more".
 
Coal said:
Shocker. Well not, because many people already knew this. Sadly, none of them were 'net zero' zealots.
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There's probably just enough of these rare metals to build electric cars and windmills for the UK alone.
There's not enough for the whole world.
 
Mythopoeika said:
There's probably just enough of these rare metals to build electric cars and windmills for the UK alone.
There's not enough for the whole world.
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Hm...wonder how Tesla stock prices are...? :)

Plus, the UK base-load power generating capacity would need to double to charge electric cars for the whole population. Other than that, no problem, it'll all be fine. On the upside, we can use electric cars for the barricades.
 
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