• We have updated the guidelines regarding posting political content: please see the stickied thread on Website Issues.

5 Arguments Against The ETH And A Rebuttal

Jerry_B said:
dr_wu said:
Jerry,
You aren't really saying anything specific and haven't explained what else might be the mechanism for the evidence if not the event.
You are just going around in circles imo. You keep saying we don't know what the percipeint saw. It doesn't matter how they experienced the unknown if physical evidence is left after the event.
I agree with analis here that there is no good reson to not connect both aspects into one anomalous event albeit an unknown one.

One good reason is that neither we nor the investigators actually saw the event. Any evidence is framed into a context by what the percipient alleges. As I've said, we have no readily available way of judging whether evidence is actually something left by a UFO, as no-one can agree what a UFO actually is. So all we have is an alleged event, and some alleged evidence. If we cannot prove the latter, we cannot prove that it gave rise to the former.

Note that this isn't the same as investigating a crime scene - this is because various aspects of forensics are known and used to ascertain the nature of the evidence, and thus help form a picture of what happened. We do not have that option with UFO landing sites, as we have no establihsed frame of reference WRT UFOs. As I said, a scientist could look at a landing site and say 'Ah yes, an x-type of marking made by an x-type UFO' etc..

You are making assumptions that don't exist for the sake of your argument. You assume a 'landing site' as if the 'ufos' are ships. I never said this and indeed I am skeptical of the ETH for a number of reasons though I don't completely rule it out.
My point simply is that if someone has what we have come to call a 'ufo experience' and then immediately there is some odd physical evidence in the very same place we can reasonably assume it's connected somehow. I'm not postulating aliens just an unknown that left physical evidence. If we are able to determine sincerity of the witness and I believe that's possible in many cases then there is no good reason to disregard the evidence unless it is subsequently shown by science to be a fake or from some other cause.
We'll have to agree to disagree here since I think your position on this connecting evidence is simply wrong.
 
Analis said:
I don't see how an occurence like the Crosia case on 23.5.2006, with a hundred of witnesses and a film, could not be called evidence.

Do you have a link for this at all, in English if possible (not essential)?
 
Is it this case; Crosia 30/5/1987 ?
http://www.ufodatanet.org/report/formyt_e.htm
On May 30th, 1987, a hundred people are gathered at Crosia, in the province of Cosenza in Italy, in honour of the statue of the virgin who has been seen crying a few days before in a church of the region. Unexpectedly, but anticipated by some medium of the assembly, a light appears in the sky at 10 p.m. It executes strange movements in the sky and is immortalized for six minutes on the videocamera of a witness

That link notes that the video camera recorded nothing more than an erratically moving point in the sky, with some discussion of the images on the film which do not seem to be particularly anomalous.
Yes, it is evidence; but evidence that even mass sightings are unreliable.
 
Alas, I have no link, as I am old school I rely mostly on books or magazines... The only ones I could cite (as Phénoména) are not in english. It is time that I change.

The image from the film is that of a delimitated object, much more precise than what the simulation with a lamp shows. But it could be argued that the ufologists involved in the inquiry enhanced the picture. Some of the witnesses did describe the light sphere morphing into a structured object, as the one on the film. This is corroboration, but as it could be said that these ufologists manipulated them, I won't discuss it any longer. After all, manipulative investigators do exist. The article explained that the religious side played a prominent role in the shaping of the case; possibly, but this aspect may have worked on both sides. But the interesting point is that people saw a luminous object in the sky, and that it was filmed. It was not a bird, a bug or a plane. The ufodatanet article did not say the contrary, and there are other instances of balls of light shifting into a more solid object. People will see in this case what they want to see: a supersonic plasma, despite the fact that physics says it's impossible; an e.t. craft, despite the fact that they don't know what an e.t. craft is supposed to look like; the vessel of the Virgin Mary, despite the fact that a spiritual being wouldn't need one; an ectoplasm created by the collective inconscious of the faithful asembled, despite the fact that it carried no obvious religious imagery.

Another interesting point is the take of the article on the meaning of 'UFO'. The phrase "At the beginning the fact was interpretated in a religious key, then in an ufological key after the intervention of the ufologists" speaks volumes. It implicitly equates ufological with extraterrestrial. As U.F.O. means Unidentified Flying Object, it was an ufological event from the beginning. When it comes to stuying them, UFOs do not have to be shoehorned into rigid mental categories. Of course, this would not please a number of believers, on the christian as well as on the space aliens side. This case is good evidence of our tendency to label things.
 
Whoa. Deja Vu.

It seems to me that every single thread posted in the UFO forum ends up turning into exactly the same discussion regardless of what the thread is actually supposed to be about.

Why could we not actually have a conversation about Jacques Vallee's 5 Arguments against the ETH (and the subsequent rebuttal) rather than launching into yet another argument about whether witness testimony actually counts as evidence?
 
graylien said:
Whoa. Deja Vu.

It seems to me that every single thread posted in the UFO forum ends up turning into exactly the same discussion regardless of what the thread is actually supposed to be about.

Why could we not actually have a conversation about Jacques Vallee's 5 Arguments against the ETH (and the subsequent rebuttal) rather than launching into yet another argument about whether witness testimony actually counts as evidence?

Well.., that was my intention with the thread and the first few posts were on topic but it did turn into one about the validity of ufo evidence and eyewitness testimony.
I think Vallee's 5 points are valid (and he spends several pages in the appendix of his book Revelations explaining them in more detail) but as pointed out there are counter arguments, by Dr Wood and others, that are equally valid.
After 30 years of reading all the various books and theories about ufos I lean towards Dr Vallee's ideas and the EDH in general, but I do not discount the ETH as a real possibility.

Arthur Clarke once said that the science of a very advanced race would seem like 'magic' to us which could explain many of the more bizarre and 'occult' like aspects to various ufo sightings and close encounters. Even so after looking at all the features of the ufo enigma over the years including ancient and near past events which some are reluctant to include in the mix, imo a simple explanation of space travelers here to study earth just doesn't add up.

Another example is Jean SIDER, who believes that there is an advanced, "immaterial" intelligence in our environment, existing in many dimensions. But probably from another planet, where it evolved in a distant past

The above comment from this thread is also very intriguing which kind of straddles both the ETH and EDH. It reminds me of Kerner's theory in Song Of The Greys which is another 'out there' idea that could be an answer. At this point it's all speculation ...and some of that speculation crosses over into metaphysics.
 
Another example is Jean SIDER, who believes that there is an advanced, "immaterial" intelligence in our environment, existing in many dimensions. But probably from another planet, where it evolved in a distant past
You see, this sort of annoys me; the idea of an advanced intelligence in our environment is quite reasonable, and the idea that it may manifest itself in ways which are difficult to understand or are in fact incomprehensible is perfectly sound.
But for some reason Sider (from what I gather from your comment) and Vallee both suggest an 'extradimensional' element to the characteristics of this advanced intelligence.
To me, that is just meaningless. Extradimensional in what way? I am not just sceptical of the extradimensional hypothesis as such, I am sceptical that Vallee, Sider (assuming he is French) and any number of French post-rational intellectuals actually know what 'extradimensional' means. They like the sound of the word 'extradimensional', and assign to it characteristics of a mythological nature.

If they are going to assign an extradimensional nature to any phenomenon, they really should be prepared to produce some geometrical mathematics.
 
Eubaracum,
All of this involves speculation so personally I don't have a problem with some of these terms like extradimensional, ultraterrestrial, or interdimensional.
There have been plenty of books and articles writen over the last few years by credible physicists regarding alternate realities and multiple universe theories as well as string theory which postulates other 'dimensions'.
When Vallee speaks of rejecting the ETH I think he is questioning the idea of 'routine space travelers' who have come here for a 'scientific study of earth'. In his opinion there are far too many aspects to the ufo enigma that discounts this hypothesis. These are listed in his 5 arguments as well as other places in his books. I agree with him on this though I still think it could be et's who are so far beyond us in tech that what they do looks like 'magic' to us.
But there are so many 'occult' like or 'paranormal' features to ufo encounters and sightings that seem to violate the laws of physics as we know them that Dr Vallee and some others think these entities may be from an alternate reality where the laws of physics are different which implies a different dimension or reality.
Perhaps the use of the term extradimensional is the problem and we should find another.
 
dr_wu said:
Ebaracum,

There have been plenty of books and articles writen over the last few years by credible physicists regarding alternate realities and multiple universe theories as well as string theory which postulates other 'dimensions'.
My point exactly; the Extra Dimensional Hypothesis doesn't appear to bear any relation to the theories of hyperdimensional physics as currently understood. Of course those theories may well be wrong; but using the concept of other dimensions and realities in this context seems more like handwaving or fiction than a real hypothesis.
 
eburacum said:
dr_wu said:
Ebaracum,

There have been plenty of books and articles writen over the last few years by credible physicists regarding alternate realities and multiple universe theories as well as string theory which postulates other 'dimensions'.
My point exactly; the Extra Dimensional Hypothesis doesn't appear to bear any relation to the theories of hyperdimensional physics as currently understood. Of course those theories may well be wrong; but using the concept of other dimensions and realities in this context seems more like handwaving or fiction than a real hypothesis.

IMO, that isn't the case. Why doesn't it bear any relation since we have no idea what these hyperdimensional worlds might be like? It's all speculation. It's a real hypothesis as far as I am concerned albeit speculative without any objective supporting evidence but then there isn't any objective evidence to support space aliens either at this point in time.

BTW, just curious....have you read any of Dr Vallee's books like 'Dimensions' for instance?
 
Not that remember in detail, no. Perhaps twenty years ago I may have read some of his stuff; I'll take a look at Dimensions if I can find it.
 
It seems that extra-dimensional or enlarged extrateterrestrial hypothesis are more welcome in France - and in Italy too - SIDER is french. Maybe for the same reasons that those countries harbour so many followers of PSH (although they grew more numerous in Britain too). The USA remain comparatively more devoted to the classic ETH, with a number of exceptions. Because science-fiction imagery is more pregnant? I wonder what the dominant stance is in Japan or in Korea?

I agree that there is no defintive evidence of the use of a superdimensionnal technology. A more advanced physics, involving a better understanding of the basics of space-time, probably; but maybe remaining confined within the limits of our universe. Super strings, supergravity or supersymetry suppose a number of additional dimensions. They are only speculations, although it seems that the usual curved space of general relativity is insufficient to explain the whole aspects of interactions. But there is no certainty that space aliens would need them to travel trough space. Warp travel, for example, needs only the laws of general relativity, with only one more space dimension. The other 'occult' aspects of UFOs involve a number of phenomena that seem to defy the known laws of space-time. We don't know if they mean that the 'aliens' learned how to master precognition, telepathy or telekinesis. And to reproduce them. This doesn't mean that they can travel through other universes. Some of the most stunning features, like instant vanishing or phasing through walls might be powerful illusions. Dr X described two metallic (or seemingly metallic) disks merging into one. Did he see the feat of a magic-like physics, or a sophisticated hologram? The latter would seem easier to swallow to many; but it would reinforce the supposition that the UFO interacted deliberately with him. But even if this was not a hologram, the 'aliens' could have learned how to master the synthesis of matter from the quantum void, for example. A sort of 'solid hologram'...
 
Again, I don't see why it's so polarised. ETH vs EDH? Why not both?
 
jefflovestone said:
Again, I don't see why it's so polarised. ETH vs EDH? Why not both?

Don't forget UTH :) along with lies, mistakes, subterfuge and natural phenomena.
 
crunchy5 said:
jefflovestone said:
Again, I don't see why it's so polarised. ETH vs EDH? Why not both?

Don't forget UTH :) along with lies, mistakes, subterfuge and natural phenomena.

There are certainly plenty of misidentifications and hoaxes.
Are you calling the UTH ultraterrestrial and how do you classify entities/phenomena from there?
 
crunchy5 said:
jefflovestone said:
Again, I don't see why it's so polarised. ETH vs EDH? Why not both?

Don't forget UTH :) along with lies, mistakes, subterfuge and natural phenomena.
.. and UHT, the "off-whites", with their very-hard-to-open little containers.
dr_wu said:
Another look at the non ETH ideas by Mac Tonnies from his blog.....an interesting place.

http://posthumanblues.blogspot.com/2006 ... where.html
Excellent stuff with some very fair points :). The comments afterwards are unusually good too (normally it's a festival of self-righteous indignation and semi-literate point-scoring.) Yes, why the obsession with underground bases? Why not sub-oceanic?
 
I read accounts of FREIXEDO. His take on the phenomena is similar to KEEL's or VALLEE's: a manipulative intelligence deceiving us by taking on many shapes. Like SIDER, he thinks that it has vampiric attributes. He agrees with those researchers that it can sometimes be hurtful or helpful to persons it contacts, looking alternatively 'good' or 'evil'. The truth being much less simple. Interestingly, he began with a black-and-white view, but came to change his mind.

As a whole, I am dubitative of crypto-terrestrials. But I think that it covers at least three different points (I exclude time-travellers from our future, or visitors from alternate Earths, they're different matters)
-1)The idea of an hominid from the genus Homo having evolved parrallely to Homo Sapiens is interesting. If he diverged from our lineage early, he could have become a large-brained humanoid. But I think it's highly unlikely. We know a number of human fossils, none of them at any time looks like this supposed hominid. I know that we know only a limited number of archaic human remains. But this is still anomalous. He should have become the dominant species at the time he evolved, at least that's what this hypothesis says. We should find his remains first, and have much less chance to find other, rarer ancient humans. Plus there are a number of other serious problems: we know the bad side of human behaviour. What he sees that can exploit, he exploits. A dominant Homo would have reduced other humans to slavery or driven them to extinction. If they developped an advanced civilisation, it is surprising that we find no remains at all. To develop advanced science and technology, one needs a strong social back-up, not a reduced community on a small territory. I don't believe in 'secret societies' or hyper technological Atlantis. I am ready to believe in the existence of quite advanced, pre-industrial civilizations at the end of the last Ice Age. There is evidence of them. But a society, more evolved than ours, or a more intelligent human species are very unlikely. And why would they hide at all?

-2) Relating to small big-headed humanoids, it is true that many look more or less human. Some of those apparitions are maybe not material, some holograms or projections. Or they could be robots. But it is possible that some at least are really modified humans. But they more probably wouldn't come from hidden civilzations; their existence would suppose the action of aliens, as herders and genetic manipulators.

-3)If a hidden close relative to us seems implausible, what is it of intelligent terrestrial beings evolving in a far remote past? It is difficult to conclude as abruptly. Humanity does not exsit for a long time, at a geological level. We have many difficulties to find human remains 1 000 000 or 500 000 years old. And we're greatly helped by the fact that they're recent. In 100 000 000 years, most of them will have been destroyed. If we are to become soon extinct, a future paleontologist from this time would have great difficulty to discover our existence. After all, humanity became numerous only 10 000 years ago, a blink of an eye geologically speaking. This future paleontologist would see a greater rate of extinction at this time. But as the Pleistocene was filled with a number of mass extinctions, and the end of the Tertiary before, it would be very difficult to discriminate. See the difficulties to reconstruct the exact frame of events at the end of Cretaceous, Triassic or Permian. It is likely that very few traces of the existence of humanity would remain. So we can't be sure that no sentient, technology-maker animal (and probably not humanoid) evolved in a more distant geological period. It could too have been less prone to pollute and destroy its environment or proliferate. It could have evolved space travel. It could still be on the planet, or left it but be monitoring it. And, why not, be Fort's herder and behind UFOs and a number of phenomena. This hypothesis is perhaps not as plausible as the ETH; but we can't reject it.
 
(From the Coralles article)
In La Gran Manipulación Cósmica, Atienza refers to the notion that there may be “bellwethers” among us who are the spearheads of evolution, moving among us in secret societies to avoid detection

Isn't this just a rehash of the 'Hidden Masters' of Theosophy?

Others have acquired new sets of teeth and enhanced mental ability, such as in 1972’s Ventura Maceiras case.

As far as I know, the Maceiras encounter is the only case of a UFO witness growing new teeth!

I notice that the ever-modest Jerome Clark ("I probably know more about the history of UFO theory and speculation than anybody") doesn't think much of Cryptoterrestrials.
 
It would be a brave UFO investigator who examined the mouth of a 73 year old watchman to see if he is getting a new set of teeth.
Mind you, I have recently started growing a new tooth; perhaps I was abducted by aliens after all.
 
Back
Top