Afghanistan Today, Tomorrow Iraq

[ogopogo3]

oh and your little website proves nothing. Ive seen tons of websites saying stuff that aint true and lets face it its hardly the best page weve ever seen. Made that yourself did we to help your glorious nation continue to spread its web of lies?

USA USA

Yeah, I apologize for believing major news sources over the ravings of a paranoid, race-baiting, militiaman-wannabe who is probably the only person on earth who considers Dale Gribble a role model. You keep plugging away, tang. And beware them black helicopters.

 

[Anonymous]

Yeah, I apologize for believing major news sources over the ravings of a paranoid, race-baiting, militiaman-wannabe who is probably the only person on earth who considers Dale Gribble a role model. You keep plugging away, tang. And beware them black helicopters.

Yet again you prove yourself to be nothing more than an ignorant American, you said they are major news sources, ofcoarse they are! and if you were a government wouldnt u want to control what the public regards as a major news source? yes you would and america isnt the home of the free like you would like to believe it is
Im paranoid?? race-baiting?? a militiaman-wannabe?? where did you come up with this? Im probably the only person on earth who considers Dale Gribble a role model ???? ok for one your saying im unique, im pretty sure im not alone in my views and secondly i dont know who dale gribble is, and unlike ignorant people i dont look up to people i know nothing about.

You keep plugging away, Ogopogo and generate more money so your glorious nation can destroy the rest of the world by selling guns and invading countrys and killing civillians. What does it feel like to be you? i heard ignorance is bliss

 

[Anonymous]

To quote the late, great Bill Hicks (an American, BTW)....
"Go back to bed America, your government has sorted it out. Here, here's 400 channels of American Gladiators. Watch these pituary retards beat the shit out of each other. Shut up! Go back to bed America, your Government has sorted it out..."
As an Englishman who has lived in the USofA (Pennsylvania, to be exact) I have seen first hand the disinformation your government feeds you. Let's look at the "Axis of Terror" - Iraq - funded by the USA and the UK (we know this, because we got this from our news services). Somalia - full of American money because the Nigerians won't play ball with anyone over their oil. North Korea - funded with money funnelled from China, money they could afford thanks to their "Favoured Trading Nation" status.
Then let's look at your "allies" - Israel - in direct contravention of UN mandates, they sieze Arab territory. What does the USofA do? Supply them with $5bn a year of weapons. Europe - specifically the UK, whom you stand "shoulder to shoulder" with - why we slap a 30% tariff on steel imports.
Before you slap the "anti-Semite, militia-wanabee" tag on anyone, survey your own people... See if they can point to Afghanistan on a map. See how many balloted their Congressman or Senator when the Kyoto Agreement went unsigned. And see how many thought that you won in Vietnam.
Then, and only then, come back and tell us to believe CNN.

 

[ogopogo3]

Tang, why do I get the feeling that you've watched FIRST BLOOD 187 times, often while touching yourself?

 

[Anonymous]

Anton La_Vey, i could not of said it better myself. Excellent stuff my friend

Ogopogo, if you cant even respond to my posts and other peoples posts with out using childish insults im just going to ignore you.

 

[Anonymous]

Tang - if you want more, try http://www.billhicks.com - the stuff he has is priceless.
"It's ironic that in some parts of the world, people are yelling 'Revolution, Revolution', but in some parts of the States, they're yelling 'Evolution, Evolution..... We want our thumbs....'"

 

[Anonymous]

Ok Anton, im going to check that our right after i post this. As youve probably noticed i used his quote that you posted above for my sig. Loved it and the evolution one cracks me up

thanks

 

[ogopogo3]

Originally posted by Anton La_Vey
As an Englishman who has lived in the USofA (Pennsylvania, to be exact) I have seen first hand the disinformation your government feeds you.

You mean Marisa Tomei really DIDN'T win the Oscar that was meant for Vanessa Redgrave???? I knew it. I just friggin' knew it.

Let's look at the "Axis of Terror" - Iraq - funded by the USA and the UK (we know this, because we got this from our news services). Somalia - full of American money because the Nigerians won't play ball with anyone over their oil. North Korea - funded with money funnelled from China, money they could afford thanks to their "Favoured Trading Nation" status.

you forgot the Shah of Iran, Batista's regime in Cuba, Manuel Noriega, the Contras, slavery, Native American genocide, Scrappy Doo.....

Then let's look at your "allies" - Israel - in direct contravention of UN mandates, they sieze Arab territory.

Get a clue, Szandor. Not like Iraq with Kuwait, huh? I'm sure you were crying your eyes out and bitching over that invasion, too. Or weren't there any Jews to get worked up over?

What does the USofA do? Supply them with bn a year of weapons.

Yeah, we give money to a lot of countries. We don't even bother to call it LOANING anymore. By the way, did the UK ever pay the US back for all of its WWII loans? Nah, thought not. But we've always been big on charity.

Before you slap the "anti-Semite, militia-wanabee" tag on anyone, survey your own people... See if they can point to Afghanistan on a map. See how many balloted their Congressman or Senator when the Kyoto Agreement went unsigned. And see how many thought that you won in Vietnam.

Wow, this argument makes a lot of sense. How does the fact that the average American is ignorant and uninterested in a great many issues make you any less of anti-Semitic militia-wannabe?

 

[Anonymous]

Yeah, we give money to a lot of countries. We don't even bother to call it LOANING anymore. By the way, did the UK ever pay the US back for all of its WWII loans? Nah, thought not. But we've always been big on charity.

Well considering the UK gave hundreds of thousands of civillian and soldiers lives before the USA even saw fit to joining the war i guess that makes us even then doesnt it? Typical american views, all about money. You talk about loans, look at Africa it has paid its loans back ten fold but yet because of interest its still paying back everyone, pathetic and you take their diamonds.

Wow, this argument makes a lot of sense. How does the fact that the average American is ignorant and uninterested in a great many issues make you any less of anti-Semitic militia-wannabe?

The average American is ignorant and uninterested but yet they still think they are an expert on everything that concerns their government that they know nothing about, i have nothing against the average american. I just wished they were more open minded and maybe as a global nation the world can advance together instead of always fighting each other which btw the USA is responsible for most of the time.

 

[Anonymous]

OK, if we're going to get childish.....
Where is the money that the British Empire spent getting your little tin-pot fascist colony off of the ground?
I suppose that the charity that you make reference to is the charity you showed to the people that already lived in your "Land of the Free".
And as for your effort in WW2, well, I guess it was better late than never. And I'll never forget the the thank you the British scientists got from The Manhattan Project - having to steal their own design back via the Russians. I'll never forget the help we had from the USA in the Falklands conflict (those arms you sent Argentina helped a lot ) Or maybe we can talk about Greneda - you can't have forgotten that, it was the time you invaded the Commonwealth. Or maybe we can talk about Iraq (the first time) when American "crack" troops killed more Brits than the Iraqis did. Or maybe the current conflict in Afghanistan, where some dipshit from the CIA got himself captured. Was it the US Marines that went in? Was it the Delta Force? No, it was the SAS, for which two members of the platoon will receive the Congressional Medal of Honour.
And lets look a little more at the Iraq-Kuwait, Palestine-Israel situation. Can we say that Kuwait was isolated? No... $50bn of American oil production, owned by US companies, was under attack. In Palestine, the oil reserves are negligible. Then let's look at the demographics in your own country - ethnic Arab accounts for 1.2% of the vote, in cities where the turnout is high, and goes with party lines - CNN estimate requires a 500% over average turnout for Arab voters to take effect, and they're not based in "key" seats. The Jewish vote accounts for 2.3% of the turnout, but is based in Florida, with a statistically low turnout, except amongst Semitic Americans. As we all saw, Florida was, and still is, the key to the Presidency, along with California, which goes with the tide.....
So, who is going to win? A Democrat, looking for peace? Or a Republican wh has to base his presidency on a group of anti Arab warmongers?

Respond as you will,
the thinking majority saw what happened at the last election, and just pray that Shrub can't find the button.

Yours respectfully,

Anton La_vey

 

[dot23]

It's a shame that whenever we start debating american/uk foreign policy we descend into back-biting. My point was about the propaganda war being waged on US/Uk citizens (moreso than other parts of the world - europe etc. where the stakes are not so high) not yet another anti-american rant.

Interesting point by ogopogo (i think!) - and I've made it before - who can say whether snopes is really: a) an unbiased truth telling site, b) or whether that's their intention and they get fed propaganda from misinformation sources, or c) they're a deliberate govt outlet to supress conspiracy theories. When I posed this question before people seem to have been offended, but we must question every source of information for its validity, not pick and chose those which suit our purposes - otherwise we're not being very fortean, are we?

 

[harlequin2005]

Are you referring to my comment about the anonymous 'italian journalist' there?

8¬)

 

[ogopogo3]

Interesting point by ogopogo (i think!) - and I've made it before - who can say whether snopes is really: a) an unbiased truth telling site, b) or whether that's their intention and they get fed propaganda from misinformation sources, or c) they're a deliberate govt outlet to supress conspiracy theories. When I posed this question before people seem to have been offended, but we must question every source of information for its validity, not pick and chose those which suit our purposes - otherwise we're not being very fortean, are we?

Yeah, that seems to be the last bastion of the conspiracy theorist, doesn't it? Well-respected, documented research and journalism is discounted in the name of an attention-grabbing, agenda-specific fringe nobody. Hmmm, I must decide who is more worthy of my trust.

I have. I don't wish to hurt your feelings. You can see the bind I'm in, can't you?

In the future, save us all some bandwidth and reply simply with:

"I hate America, and everybody in it, and everything it stands for. Now here's a bunch of untrue crap that supports me......"

Heck, I agree with most of it. But your attitude pisses me off. This is why you must lick the bottoms of my shoes.

 

[harlequin2005]

Ah, the delights of a reasoned debate...

8¬)

 

[Anonymous]

Then let's look at your "allies" - Israel - in direct contravention of UN mandates, they sieze Arab territory.

Maybe you should take the time to look into the history of the 6 Day War? This is when most of the land you are talking about was seized. Try to understand the circumstances under which that land was taken.

Golda Meir, David Ben-Gurion and others spent most of the early 1960s trying to start talks with the various hostile Arab dictatorships.

 

[dot23]

I really have no idea what you mean Ogopogo, I thought I was supporting your position, not undermining it. I certainly don't hate all americans, (which is what I thought i'd made plain in my last post). What's wrong with my attitude btw?

I would also say my option b) was most likely - that some of the debunking done on sites like snopes is govt misinformation passed off as 'serious research'. Also respected journos are under extreme pressure both from the editors (to provide material that will sell papers) and govt (who want to hush up anything 'not in the public interest' or 'damaging to national security'). That doesn't make them the most reliable sources of 'truth'. And no offence but US journos (presenters on CNN etc, writers for NY times) seem to have a greater bias than their UK
counterparts - then again it could be a subtetly thing.

Harl - yeah there's something fishy about that whole thing, I've read many conflicted reports about the origins of that footage, and the response from Arabs in palestine and elsewhere generally.

As a small anecdote I'd like to say that I travelled to Egypt directly after 911 and found Muslims there genuinely shocked (despite alleged al qaida connections with egypt) that a muslim could support such wanton destruction. Perhaps they said this to me and my girlfriend because we were white and they wanted to make us comfortable so they could extract cash from us. I don't belive this to be so - the story was the same wherever we went, they kept pointing out that Bin Laden's views of Islam were twisted, that 911 was like the attacks on tourists in their own country by extremists in that it was entirely counter productive etc.

Again I say DON'T BELIEVE THE HYPE - there is a war going on hear and it's not just in the mountains of afghanistan. The real battle is for our minds, and the claims that this is a racist and religious war made by some arab, muslim and even liberal commentators cannot be ruled out. This is about Capitalism versus Spiritualism, liberal values versus fascism, cultural acceptance of difference against cultural homogeny. Maybe you feel sure which side fits into which category, but beware. Think who really stands to gain from these wars, think of the alliances behind the alliances, the company affiliations, secret negotiations and hidden empires of wealth. Sure this war (as every war in the last 50 years has) is about oil, capital, imperialism - but what drives it? Is simple wealth alone enough to drive men to such heinous acts as the napalming of children in 'nam, the suicide bombing of discos, the murder of pacifists and radicals? Or is there a more subtle fight, one which has, as it's ultimate goal, not only the mineral wealth of the world, but the intellectual?

 

[NilesCalder]

I refer you to comments I made in the "Why not Fascism?" thread.

As Forteans we are supposed to be able (or at least attempt) to make the cognitive leap which allows us to seperate ourselves from our inherant memes and examine the world with an unbiased perspective. Forteans do not lack beliefs, nor do we deny ourselves the ability to accept or form them. Instead we should try to slip their chains like Memetic Houdini' and transcend our normal limitations. I'm not talking about any psi power or mutant ability, I'm talking about performing an intellectual trick which unhinders our minds from the limits imposed by our regular cognative toolsets.

Alas this is a talent all to rarely developed by Forteans as is demonstrated in this thread. (Even the Great Reverend Fanthorpe can only take it so far; being weighed down by his Faith).

While we allow ourselves to be limited by our normal memetic structures we blind ourselves to the true breadth of experience out there. Reality is Subjective (and I challenge anyone to prove otherwise) and even on a physical level is uncertain in its nature.

'Reality' shifts and churns when we aren't looking taking on new forms and structures and the very act of percieving it (at least on a quantum level) causes it to change once more.

So the 'Truth' is this: There is no Truth.
At the same time all things are True, even False things.
Everything is a Metaphor.

A Government can be both Honest and Corrupt.
A War, and a Law, can both be Just and Criminal.
One person's Terrorist is another's Freedom Fighter.
'Our' dead civilians are Heroic Martyrs while the enemy's are Unfortunate Casualties.
UFO's are both Alien Space Craft and Hallucinations.
One person's Ghost is another's Raindrop.
One's Benign Deity is anothers Malevolent Demon.
Someone's Monarch is another's Space Monster.

When Hasan ibn al-Sabah said "All things are possible; all things permissable" he may have meant "fuck, smoke pot and go out and kill people; it's not wrong" but he also expressed the intrinsic uncertainty of the cosmos and our perception of it.

Of course from your perspective all this is Tosh and Off Topic, but from mine... who's to say?

Niles "fiat lux" Calder

 

[phgnome]

the day democracy fell

Very eloquently said, Calder. I wish we could drop the pre-formed ideas of "good" and "evil" -- we'd be a lot more productive if, instead of condemning or displaying support for things, we could just determine what the problem is and say "f--k it, let's get this sh-t fixed."

Ogopogo, I don't think that dot23 was saying he hates America and everyone in it. But, I want to point out that the media has already beat it in your head that everyone hates you -- I'm seeing it as a more common mode of thought these days. Why did they show that footage with a bunch of people cheering immediately after 911? What impact do you think they intended to have on the audience? They want the public to feel alienated from the rest of the world -- it makes what they plan to do to "the enemy" justifiable in the public's eyes. I understand the pressure Americans feel but this is a standard PR tactic to ensure public support. All over the place, I'm hearing it and it all started when Bush went on TV and said it: "anti-American sentiment". Any objections, even by Americans, to actions the government takes is defined as an "anti-American sentiment". But what's really underneath it? This propaganda is making people, even Americans, afraid to speak because they are afraid of being associated with the make-believe anti-American group. What good is the very freedom lives are being laid down for if a citizen cannot even disagree with his/her government?

I know a few people in the US and they've said that EVERYONE is afraid to say anything about it. All this killing is going on in the Middle East, all those people died on the planes, there are threats of using nuclear weapons and many people are afraid to say that this is NOT what they want (to take more lives) because they don't want to appear anti-American and be persecuted by the US government. However, I want to remind you that the US is a democratic society -- you have the power to choose who represents you and you also have the power to remove the representative from office. When I think about what the government and corporate PR gurus are doing to the masses with this tactic on a psychological level, I get the chills. They've disregarded the very basic beliefs of democracy and are taking it away from the American public. Bush didn't even win the election -- how is it that he's still in office, much less playing out a key part in what WILL, inevitably, be a major world war? He makes even the media -- the watchdogs of the free world -- afraid to press the point any further and throw his a$$ on the front lawn where it belongs. Under ANY other circumstance, it would be big news and the American public would not have stood for it. There's no way he could've pulled off this stunt in any other situation. I don't believe he represents or respects the wishes of the people he serves. I think peace talks will only begin when he is impeached and there is a re-election, where the votes will be carefully watched and tallied by a third-party that is neutral to the situation. And since there was tampering in his favour, he should barred for life from ever serving in any government position.

 

[Anonymous]

unless you agree with everything Ogopogo says you hate the USA and everyone who lives in it, thats the only explanation that would explain his attitude and behaviour.

 

[ogopogo3]

No, I said if you're going to spew false information, don't be surprised if you get called on it. Big difference, chum.

 

[Anonymous]

When you talk about false information do you mean actual false information or information you refuse to believe? Big difference, chum.

And i hardly think childish remarks and name calling is being called on something Ogopogo, i think a lot more people would actually listen to your posts if they werent full of personal insults and comments that obviously only you find amusing, i.e you sig, halarious i must admit, you must be proud of yourself finding out that tang is cantonese for orange.