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American Nukes in Afghanistan?

A

Anonymous

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Forgive me for asking, but can anyone explain the difference between a passenger jet aimed at the WTC and a depleted Uranium warhead? Does 3000 lives justify scarring an innocent country for the next 150 years? Can 150 prisoners in Camp X-Ray equal one and a half centuries of birth defects? Are we going to complain when we have to pay for treatment for the children we crippled?
Or are we going to say that the "Daisy Cutters" we dropped were loaded with a conventional warheads? Can we comfort ourselves with the fact that, even though Bin Laden was underground, we would never use a weapon that could kill Americas Most Wanted with a few Gamma Rays? Can we be sure, after Kuwait and Serbia, that we haven't done it?

I await your comments.....
 
It wouldn't surprise me. We won't even hear glimmers of gossip about it for another forty years though. That's why there are no reporters there to properly cover this conflict.
We have given over our rights to men who admire the idea of taking rights away from people. With no pause for thought.

No one is complaining... yet.
 
How we see it, how we don't

The images of passenger jets filled with civilises westerners, flying into the offices of civilised westerners, horrified the dignified sensebilities of the civilised westerners that were watching the events unfold on their televisions in the civilised west.

Whilst, in the East, the dropping of bombs by civilised westerners on the heads, caves, tanks etc of evil and faceless terrorists and their supporters is seen as a necessary evil. As with Iraq, the consequences of these weapons will not be seen and discussed in any great detail until many years down the line, if at all.

It's all to do with from which perspective you're watching the war.

Moggadon
 
I came across this in a book called "Cruelty and Silence: War, Tyranny, Uprising and the Arab World" by Kanan Makiya (Samir Al-Khalil) Penguin, London, 1994.

Talking about Iraqi soldiers fleeing Kuwait in 1991 he describes the US Army's assault on those Iraqis trying to escape home. At Mutla' Ridge near Jahra, American Marines of the Second Airbourne Division engaged in what Major General Moore of Marine Air Wing refered to as "a turkey shoot for several hours". Those escaping formed a giant, chaotic convoy filling all four lanes of a sixty-mile stretch of highway from Jahra to the Iraqi border.

I mention all of this because of this account:

"An unfamiiar heat is generated by the kind of high-tech weaponry tested out upon Iraqis during the Gulf war. Along the Mutla' road, the inensity of this heat melted windshield glass into silicone droplets and caused othewise harmless objects to explode. It also did perculiar things to bodies... One man who was trying to escape in a Kawasaki front-end loader ended up with only half of his body "hanging upside down and out of his exposed seat, the left side and bottom blown away to tatters"... Nine men in a flat sided supply truck were killed and flash burned so quickly that they remained naked - skinned and blackened wrecks in the vulnerable positions of the first moment of impact... One mn's body lay face down with his rear high in the air... Hi legs ended in fluttery charcoaled remnants at mid thigh. He had a young, pretty face, slightly cherubic, with a pointed little chin, you culd still see that even though it was mummified."

I have no doubt that situations of war give the perfect cover for covert testing.
 
the revolution will NOT be televised

Neither will the war, I guess.

I love how this seems to be not a war against terrorism as much as a war of semantics. It's a "war" on terrorism, yet it generates no "prisoners of war". With the simple twisting of a few words here, and some vague definitions there, we effectively erase the rights [human/civil] of those we capture.

I say "we" because, I can assure you, I'm not out there protesting for their rights, and my silence ensures that the government that claims to represent me will do whatever the hell it wants to, so I do bear a part of the responsibility.

It's the easy way out to get all rabidly pro-American, and clamour for entertaining sound bites from the news services, which are now no better than some bizarre offshoot of the MK/ULTRA program, [todays coverage of "Superbowl Sunday being a case in point] but we should be demanding FULL COVERAGE of the war. We should have cameras jammed up in everybodys face. So what, we see a little bit of the evil that is war, isn't that what war is all about? To be so horrifying that you would never want to do it again?
Are our leaders afaid that if we saw what it takes to win, we might not even want to play? Well, I assure them, they have no worries. We are a fully conditioned, ready to respond to command, generation of zombies and pigs. We will believe or do ANYTHING that the magic box that sits in our livingrooms tells us to do.
I have family members in the television news industry, and I really have to tell you, to these people, it is ONLY a job. Gone are the days of unbiased coverage. Now they will only report on things sanctioned by their corporate sponsors. Dan Rather and company can all go cry in the desert about honesty and integrity for all I care, I see nothing but empty talking heads, chanting their spells to keep us mesmerized, TRANSFIXED, on diverting our lives, our spiritual evolution, to better serve our Masters, be they in Washington or Hollywood.
I am convinced that we are probably using HAARP type tech while over there [for communications, fer shure!] and that is some of the cause of recent weather wackiness. Snow in Jerusalem? The canals of Venice freezing over? I didn't even know you COULD freeze that mess of shit and chemicals. Christ, I was wandering around the streets of Boston with a t-shirt only the other day! [and pants, socks and shoes, oh playful ones!]

Wow this is getting long and scarily "Unibomberish". I think I'll go watch "Malcolm in the Middle" and then "The O'Reilly Factor" and see if I can induce a heart attack!
[in me!]
 
I have to agree that the corporate takeover is almost complete. They sho nuff got the entertainment industry locked up, and that includes most major news outlets.

It's too disturbing to think about, really, and can certainly lend itself to paranoia. Some of the shit that's gone down with the gov't and Enron has renewed my faith in the ability of absolute power to corrupt absolutely.

I'd much rather talk about spooks!
 
This thread... as do many... meanders a bit, while remaining GENERALLY in one vein, so this is not so much a response to ONE post as it is a general comment...

Yes, war is terrible. Always. At all times. Unless you are a pacifist, there is probably some war, or some military action, taken at some time, by some group of people, in some context, perhaps a very NARROW context, that you feel was justified. And lets be honest...that action was horrible too. It can't help but be if you are a compassionate person. Which is one reason, among others, that war should never be a step taken lightly...

BUT....

Again, I have a hard time empathizing with those who constantly want to cast the USA as the new "Evil Empire", the constant "bad guy". Nor do I have a lot of time for the armchair lawyers who want to tangle everything in complicated semantic-based webs - "prisoners of war", etc.

I just don't see this as all that complicated, at the base level. There are people out there, generally NOT official agents of a state, who have decided that to advance some cause or another, or for some religious reason or another, are willing to slaughter civilians and then try to fade into the woodwork. This is not one nation state declaring war on another or even attacking another - it is not that clean, and that is by design. They are counting on the "squeamishness" of their enemies to give them shelter... they are counting on the "niceties" of the rule of law to give them safe harbor.

Looks like they miscalculated, this time.

And I see no need to apologize for what they have brought down on their heads. I DO feel sorry for the innocents inevitably caught in the middle. And sorry, folks, I also believe that the Western forces are doing all they can, unlike their enemies, to MINIMIZE such suffering. Within... and this is, yes, terrible... the realistic bounds of war.

So while you wring your hands and spit at the "Great Satan", maybe you ought to give at least a little thought to the kinds of people who BY DESIGN seek to MAXIMIZE civilian death, suffering and fear AS A MATTER OF COURSE.

Shadow
 
To return to the subject of depleted uranium, it's not just used in anti-tank shells.

It is also used as a counterweight on the ailerons of many jet aircraft. When a cargo aircraft crashed at Stansted a couple of years ago, the crash site was searched for months, looking for the counterweights & I still don't know if they were all found.

Depleted uranium has also been used as ballast on the keels of racing yachts!!!
 
So depleted uranium is just a very heavy substance, is that why it's used for these purposes? I ask 'cause I don't know.
 
Yes, it's a very heavy substance, used for it's low mass heavy weight. But, it may have other unwanted effects......if you smash it into armour plate, crash it in a plane or sink it in the sea!!!!!
 
markbrown said:
So depleted uranium is just a very heavy substance, is that why it's used for these purposes? I ask 'cause I don't know.
Click to expand...

There has been a discussion about DU on the "WTC Demolition Conspiracy" thread. Turns out that it has other properties that also make it useful as an armour piercing round.
 
Shadow - just a quick question.... Do you consider the Polish pilots that flew in the raids on Dresden, were shot down and captured "POW's" or "Terrorists"? Poland was no longer a state when they flew, they killed many civilians, and were treated as POW's. OK, so maybe they were fighting for freedom.... Many Israeli cabinet ministers were involved in the assassination of British troops in 1945/46. At the time they were stateless people fighting for a shared cause. Were they terrorists? Would the US government give $5bn a year to them if they were? Osama Bin Laden, as quoted by the USA, "Declared war on the West". If he did, then his troops should be held as POW's, if not, then we (and I mean the UK as well as the USA) should not be attacking a country that harbours them. If that were the case, Belfast, Dublin and much of New England should have come under fire in the 80's for supporting the IRA. Despite 3,000 dead Americans, this "war" has degraded to hitting the class weakling whilst he's already on the floor....
 
Wow. My sentiments exactly! Does that make me a commie pinko bastard? Am I a traitor? I often do wonder...
 
Commie pinko bastard Wulfloki?

Almost definately. Look at how they responded to Susan Sontag.
 
Wishy washy sentimental liberals

There are far too many liberals out there with their bleeding hearts on their sleeves. Too many people saying " don't do this, or don't do that " when if countries like the USA, Great Britain and other mini powers, didn't make a stand against the degraded sensebilities of countries like Iran, Iraq and Afghanistan, we would be in a nightmare situation. OK !! we're already in a pretty bad state, but that's mainly because no-one saw the storm brewing. It made my skin crawl when the protesters outside downing street were saying we needed to talk to the Taleban and the terrorist organisations rather than bombing them and bringing them to justice. Show what they know\knew.....not !

Now I'm not saying that I agree with all of the USA's foreign policies - point in hand being the complete mess in Israel.....but does anybody ever come up with any decent suggestions ? None that I've heard. Until there's a realistic alternative to the way in which these lawless organisations and countries can be dealt with, bombs and bullets, and lots of them, will surely have to suffice.

On the point of depleted Uranium, I believe an alternative material that can be used, is Tungsten, but as that is so expensive and difficult to produce, depleted Uranium is used. The use kills ( excuse the pun ) three birds with one stone : it can be used a a counterbalance\balast material, it can be used to tip warheads and therefore give them a greater' punch ' and it also removed the Uranium from the costly process of storage\processing. And, seeing how defence budgets are so closely monitored and restricted, it seems a good use of a pretty deadly material.

Moggadon
 
the last post....

I think my feelings for Moggadon's post could best be described by my re-enacting a scene from television's "The Simpsons"

Homer Simpson: [to himself, in a funhouse mirror] " I AM A ROBOT, DO WHAT I SAY! heheehe! I AM A WASHING MACHINE, DO WHAT I SAY!"


Moggadon, what makes you think "no one saw the storm brewing?" Plenty saw it, and plenty made comment, but were dismissed as being too liberal.

The point I think most people are missing, is that we already have the capabilities inherent in our system to deal with any threats we could face, IF WE WERE USING THEM PROPERLY IN THE FIRST PLACE.
Giving our governments more power to wage war, to dispose of dangerous substances, or to play semantic word games with human rights, unquestioned and unobserved by the people, is never a good idea. It paves the way for a future control system, that at best, REEKS of the disease of fascism. What good is winning, if you can't take the moral high road to get there? And just because somebody else [in this case the taliban] does something horrrible and unrighteous to us, does not erase our obligation to "do the right thing"

For your own information, Moggadon, I DO NOT consider myself a bleeding heart liberal. I was a US Marine [2nd MEDBTTLN] at a time when Lt. Col. Oliver North was a national hero, and I was associated with the right wing 'zine "American Defense of Justice", put out by the New England hardcore band Crash Course back in the 'eighties. I like to think of myself as more of a skeptic. Especially when it comes to the government. AND I STILL HATE HIPPIES!:devil:
 
A few posts back, Anton Le Vey asked me, basically, to define "terrorist", and to explain the difference between a freedom fighter, terrorist, revolutionary, combatant, etc, in the context of the discussion of Taliban/Al Queda members as POWs.

Frankly, Anton... I don't think I brought up the POW wrangle, and with good reason. I am not a lawyer, or a politician, nor one who is overly interested in indulging in a duel of semantics. Good luck defining terrorist. Truly. Two of the hoariest cliches are that one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter and that history is written by the victors. I am surprised you didn't mention the American revolutionaries - or should that be the Colonialist Traitors? Were they terrorists? How about the French resistance during WWII? You can make a good case that it depends on whose ox is being gored, and who ends up coming out on top. The POW question is a very complicated one. VERY.

But then again, I am not an ethical relativist, nor am do I bring a lawyerly detachment to the dicsussion, and I admit it. I am mightily biased here. I do NOT feel there was any grievance justifying 9/11. I am not interested in allowing ANOTHER 9/11. And I am very much interested in that message being made painfully, and in some cases FATALLY clear to all who were involved, all who may be thinking of getting involved, and all who, in light of 9/11, choose to not change their ways. If you are sitting somewhere..anywhere..out there, right now, thinking of killing Americans, then I am all for the US govt ferreting out you and anyone who supports you..and making short work of you.

If the Muslim extremists "win", they can feel free to write the history books showing their glorious martyrs, their hallowed freedom fighters, killed by the Infidels from the West. Hopefully, they will never get such an opportunity.

Do I want any captives to be treated humanely? You bet. And I mean that. I think those trying to stir up this POW "issue" don't really believe they are being treated any other way. They simply want to drag in the lawyers, muddy the waters, and turn this into yet another legal sideshow, while getting yet another chance for some good ol' US bashing.

Not going to buy into that game.

Shadow
 
Anton La_Vey said:
If he did, then his troops should be held as POW's, if not, then we (and I mean the UK as well as the USA) should not be attacking a country that harbours them. If that were the case, Belfast, Dublin and much of New England should have come under fire in the 80's for supporting the IRA. Despite 3,000 dead Americans, this "war" has degraded to hitting the class weakling whilst he's already on the floor....
Click to expand...

The comparison with terrorists in both Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland has been made many times. "If it is legitimate to bomb Afghanistan to deal with UBL et al, then why didn't we bomb Dublin, etc?"

I believe that this example is not legitimate. It makes for good soundbites, but the comparison is not really there. As I understand it :

UBL et al was intimately involved with the Taliban leadership of Afghanistan, and his forces were actively involved on the ground fighting with the Taliban forces. The Taliban knew where his training camps were and took no action to stop their operation.

The Provisional IRA was an illegal organisation in the Republic of Ireland, and whilst some of the population supported them, members of the IRA were still arrested and put in prison. As far as I'm aware there were no IRA training camps operating in the Republic under the protection of the Irish government. If the government of the Republic of Ireland were doing this, then I think that military action may have been justified.

There are many reasons for concern about what has happened and is still happening in Afghanistan and other regions of the world, but lets move on from the argument that the two situations are equivalent.
 
Now let me see .....!

Wulfloki,

.....do you honestly think you live in a democracy ? Do you honestly think that fascism in all it's historical glory is not just around the corner ? The next ten years are going to be the most telling years where the health of world democracy is concerned. This way of life is threatened from every angle, down every avenue, and the only way it can be protected is by force......the force of fascism.......Get your head around that, because I can guarantee that you're going to see some of the biggest changes to the way we live in the West in the next decade. Things have changed forever, and if you're American, as I suspect you are, you should realise this more than anyone. Democracy is just a sheen on the lives that we lead.......underneath this sheen, and it's a very attractive sheen......is a fascist way of life....
I'm not talking the third reich or anything.....but there are people in government, on both sides of the Atlantic, who will do whatever is necessary to protect the way of life both of our countries have come to enjoy.

Moggadon
 
the sleeper must awaken

Moggadon, we live in the closest thing to a democracy, and I have never once even entertained the slightest notion that it was, or ever was a perfect democracy. It works for now, imperfectly, as we struggle along to reinvent it everyday to conform with our ever changing needs and idea of what it is we represent in the world. [We, of course, meaning The US, which I make abundantly clear in almost all of my posts.]

Yes I do fear the threat of fascism creeping in, as I have for a very long time. That threat is neither new, nor going away anytime soon. What makes me fear it even more, is people who like to run around quoting hip little sound bites, totally brainwashed by the media into thinking that they have the information available to comment, glibly, on any subject that passes their snouts in this feeding trough. My question to you in turn is, Do you think it is very hard, or very prophetic of you to predict "Big Changes" in the west now? Ohhh, so very canny of you! Maybe I should get in touch with James Randi about the cool million he's going to owe you?
Fascists have an odd way of thanking their prophets, I think you will find.
You may like to think of yourself as some kind of modern day Hannussen with a more forgiving view of fascism, but you will see things a bit more clearly in a couple of decades, or you will die trying to understand. Of course, this is assuming that this is what you want, a glorious death to help pave the way for your "Fourth Reich" where we will all salute each other with plenty of Seig for yourHeil, and all the "men" play ass-grab with each other while on "training manuevers".

The only good thing about fascism, like Catholicism, is that it represses sexuality to the point where a whole new field of perversion and sin can be introduced. Ever notice how many modern male fascists were molested by their dads and/or uncles? Ever notice how many modern fascists make up what they themselves perceive as being "the weak"? Show me a fascist, and I'll show you someone with a severe personality disorder [not to mention the curious fact that not one of them seems to have the proper 'one chin' look. They either sport more than one, or none at all]
What sold you on fascism anyway, Morrissey? "Cause if so, wonder no more, as that spoken of thunder will never happen here. No matter how hard you spank it, wishing it were so.

So let your "glorious fascism" try to rear it's misinformed, ugly head. We TRUE Americans will always be there to knock it's dick in the dirt. For every member of the government who would lean towards fascism merely to "protect this way of life" there are still many more who were raised on the stories of their parents and grandparents who actually lived under a fascist regime.
You scum do not have history, or time on your side.

you should change your caption to "Moggadon, Moggadon, it's time to wake up!" Or grow up, at least.
 
and....

If somehow, through some bizarre twist of fortune, Great Britain ended up in the hands of fascists, I would be one of the first in line to demand [democratically, of course!] the carpet bombing of every major city and point of egress on that tiny little island.
I would do this, not so much as a means of killing the fascists, but as a general euthanising of the population, as I'm sure they would understand that that is how the fascist hating heroes that they are descended from would want it!
World War Two taught you nothing, Moggadon? Your little pretentions at fascism a gift for the parents you are rebelling against still, Moggadon?
 
easy there tigers - I think you've both gotten a little hot under the collar!

I personally don't want to 'enjoy' a way of life if the cost is so high. No ammount of banal television and brittney spears is worth polluting the world and brutalising our species any more than we're already doing to ourselves.

the main thing to remember is that human lives are involved here. just because the victims of the WTC got all the air time doesn't mean that the victims of the Afghan war (part n) deserve to be heard. Since the Taleban and Al-Qaida numbers were relatively low, and most escaped and/or converted sides as soon as they realised what was going on, The death toll from the afghan conflict (estimated at 4000 with many women and children) is a high price to pay to ensure that we don't have another WTC. IMHO it's more likely - in the long run - to cause more terrorism, as young children grow up disillusioned and angry that there families have been torn apart.

Anyway, M - I hope you're not really endorsing fascism - I assume you mean that fascists are in positions of power, and that they run the US govt - that's something I can definitely believe in. It does run very deep, in many corners of the world (russia, the far east, the middle east etc) in many different forms. I for one do not want to see a return of repression in the arts, human rights abuses against minorities and endless marches and rallies for propaganda. However, going by present political manoeverings in the UK towards immigrants and refugees I fear that time isn't far off.

Fascists are essentially selfish, cowardly and ignorant - don't count yourselves among them M.
 
Whoa there cowboy

I don't think you really read what I was saying did you mr wulfloki........?? your American pretensions jumped into your typing finger and pulled the hair trigger that is on the hand of every gun toting american. I never said I was a fascist, or even a supporter of this particular vulgarity in any of its ugly forms.

Inform yourself before you raise your voice in future. I wasn't making any vitriolic attacks on anyone. OK ? Good.

Moggadon
 
It's Wulfloki, NOT "Mr." Wulfloki, punk...

Moggadon said:
Wulfloki,

.....do you honestly think you live in a democracy ? Do you honestly think that fascism in all it's historical glory is not just around the corner ? The next ten years are going to be the most telling years where the health of world democracy is concerned. This way of life is threatened from every angle, down every avenue, and the only way it can be protected is by force......the force of fascism.

Moggadon
Click to expand...

sound to me more like you are wanking to your own words as you write Moggadon, I mean, really, do you expect me to believe that you are NOT a wannabe fascist with all your "fascism in all it's historical GLORY?" You claim that fascism is the only way to protect "this way of life" yet now you disassociate yourself from them, saying I misunderstood you. No vitriolic attack on anyone? Well, mine is an attack, ON YOU, you double speaking liar.
You claim you are not a fascist, but I think that is just because you realize your ass would be torn asunder by any who thought you really were one. I'll bet if you were in a group of racists, you would be one of the loudest, telling jokes about "Jews" and "Pakis", and acting the clown to gain approval of the group. When confronted with normal people, I'm sure your mask of civility slides right back on.
I AM INFORMED, PUNK, AND I"LL RAISE MY VOICE IF I WANT TO.
and I almost ALWAYS want to. No fascist scum wearing some form of synthetic fiber underwear is going to tell me what to do.


DOT23, I know that it is easy to think of the US as being run by fascists, but have you ever lived here? Just wondering, because with all the propaganda that flies back and forth between our countries, I want you to realize that it would be very easy for me to think of your country as being closer to fascist than this one ever could be. America will be more likely run along the lines of some giant all consuming system of corporations, than run by backwoods inbred phallic gun toters, I assure you.
You, DOT23, will please excuse my excessive hatred for neo-nazi scum. I think they are the lowest form of life, on par with child molesters, and I will lash out at any form of fascism I see, INCLUDING WHERE I SEE IT HERE IN THE US. And yes, I can back my mouth with my hands, anytime and any place.
IF moggadon is NOT a fascist, then, maybe, I'd apologize, but I think he/she IS a nazi scumbag, hiding behind bad writing and half-baked concepts that would be more reasonable coming from the mouth of some eighteen year old poli-sci minor, than the mouthof any person who is informed on the reality of the human condition.
 
Yawn !!!

Typical american ( no capital letter there )

A) I'm not a facist.
B) You really don't understand what I was saying.
C) You really wouldn't understand if I tried to explain..what's the point ?
D) You're quite rude and I'm not going to fall out with anyone from this board......

Moggadon
 
Marybeth, Marybeth, send me to sleep!

Yeah, back away slowly neo- nazi scum.
I DON'T need to understand the regurgitated pablum you are spewing. You try to speak with such authority on a subject you OBVIOUSLY know not much about. If you are just PLAYING WITH WORDS than maybe you should state so at the beginnings of your posts. Have you lived here? In this country? I doubt it. So what would you know about it besides what you see on "the telly"?
As for my being able to comprehend what it is you claim you were TRYING to write, if you are such an Overmind, how could it possibly have been misunderstood? Even by such an obvious lackwit such as myself?

And as for my being "rude"... Ha! Well, it's a lucky thing you have the Atlantic for a buffer zone, little girly man! You couldn't handle the heat where I come from. If it upsets your pale pasty little head to be confronted with my rudeness, don't respond to my posts. I'll also ignore your foolish prattle.

Sounds like a deal to me!:mad:
 
boys boys - really!!!

I think you've just got confused WL - this is a prime example of what I was saying before on the 'board behaviour' thread. It's very easy to misconstrue what people are saying without tone of voice to guide you. I (correctly I think) assumed that M was playing with words (as you said WL) and was being sarcastic.

And then you go on to defend my accusations of US government having people that subscribe to fascist ideals on it (like Wolfowitz etc.) These people are murdering scum, Mogaddon and me are just people trying to have a conversation. You should vent your bile at the idiots that perptrate genocide in the name of liberty.

And yes there are fascists in British govt, as well as in Europe (Burlusconi et al) and other places (as I said originally).

I think you two should PM and make up ;)
 
I'm more upset about the insinuation that I type with only one finger!

Well, dot23, it sounds nice, but i'ts not going to happen!

If I were writing in a sarcastic mode, I think I would throw in a disclaimer or two if I thought my words might be mistaken and used to identify me with some dubious group, like fascists.

I stand by my comments however, as I do not feel I am mistaken about Moggadon. Rereading his/her posts I am even more sure that Mogg is either a closet fascist or someone who talks out of both sides of their mouth at once, either way, they have nothing to offer me in the way of original thought, and can only anger me with such "first year in college" statements.

I don't mean to drag you into any arguments between myself and any other member here, so I'm going to leave it at that.

One must always remember though, unless you have lived in a particular country, any information you receive about that country is nothing but propaganda, no more, no less. Even if that particular country is the one doing all the propagandizing!
 
wulfloki - I am aware that a lot of information about american govt is propaganda, however one has to base ones ideas on something, and I do try (now and again) to qualify my statements by saying 'in my opinion' or 'so I've heard'. You could also say there's no smoke without fire, and that if so many people believe that something's going on there must be something behind it. Hey this is a conspiracy thread - it's meant to be full of half understood information!

Okay let's break it down:
One must always remember though, unless you have lived in a particular country, any information you receive about that country is nothing but propaganda, no more, no less. Even if that particular country is the one doing all the propagandizing!
Click to expand...

so you could also say not to believe what you hear about the next state, the next town, your neighbour. What it boils down to is: who do you believe? Well, either no-one or everyone or a cross-section. If you live in that country surely you're more likely to be under the influence of propaganda - what you read in the papers is likely to be a) skewed towards people that read that paper b) reflecting the interests of the newspaper owners, and c) under the thumb of government officials. Whereas the news you read about a country from the outside *may* be more independant (it may be owned by the same company i.e. if the Times of London was bought by the New York Times it would reflect the same general world-view, but it's unlikely that it would be politically identical - as London voters are uninterested in democratc/republican issues).

In the end all information comes from vested interests - maybe I'm anti-american, therefore everything I say is distorted to reflect that point of view. All media are certainly representative of political/financial bias. Even personal information (ie. first hand accounts) is impacted by emotions, personal views etc. So who do you believe?

This is the point of conversation, dialogue and dialectic. Without the ability to ask unsettling questions we'd all be zombies, nodding in unison - becuase we as a species rely on a collective viewpoint to survive, and that viewpoint is made through this very process.

and I never said that U type with one finger :p
 
My leanings ???

DOT23.....my leanings will always be towards a free and fair state. You're right though, I'm not a fascist. My observations are that, although on every government document you may see a letter head that states Democracy of Great Britain, or Democracy of the United States, I feel there are fascists who are really at the helm of these two great nations. The 'sheen' of democracy is merely a shiny surface with which the governments placate us, but the reality is that much is done in our name, for which we have no say over.

Moggadon
 
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