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Are Ghosts Insane?

fetid71 said:
"I wonder though why none of these 'things' are ever caught on CCTV etc."

But CAN ghosts be photographed or carried live on television? That's really the unanswered question. Few if any of the existing ghost photographs are terribly convincing and even the best examples (such as the famous Raynham Hall photo) could have been very easily faked.

Remmber, also, the old legends concerning vampires - they can be SEEN, but NOT reflected in mirrors or water, nor can they be photographed. Perhaos this is also true of ghosts?

Thje original view of the British Society for Psychical Research (S. P. R.) back during the final two decades of the 19th Century was that ghosts are "hallucinations." Please especially note that the S. P. R. used "hallucination" in its older and more accurate context - an ideated mental construct. It was most certainly NOT used it its modern context of "delusional" or "crazy."

Let's say I see my friend Mary suddenly appear in my apartment, she waves at me, says "Got to run! I'm due in Heaven but just wanted to say 'goodbye' before I leave. See you YEARS from now!" Mary then vanishes, followed soon after by the 'phone ringing to let me know that Mary has just unexpectedly passed on. What has apparently taken place is that Mary's spirit has somehow interacted with mine and this has induced my mind to "hallucinate" (see above) her image.

Hallucinations (in both the classic and the modern senses of the word) obviously cannot be photogrtaphed. Not yet, at any rate.
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OldTimeRadio said:
Thje original view of the British Society for Psychical Research (S. P. R.) back during the final two decades of the 19th Century was that ghosts are "hallucinations." Please especially note that the S. P. R. used "hallucination" in its older and more accurate context - an ideated mental construct. It was most certainly NOT used it its modern context of "delusional" or "crazy."

Let's say I see my friend Mary suddenly appear in my apartment, she waves at me, says "Got to run! I'm due in Heaven but just wanted to say 'goodbye' before I leave. See you YEARS from now!" Mary then vanishes, followed soon after by the 'phone ringing to let me know that Mary has just unexpectedly passed on. What has apparently taken place is that Mary's spirit has somehow interacted with mine and this has induced my mind to "hallucinate" (see above) her image.

Hallucinations (in both the classic and the modern senses of the word) obviously cannot be photogrtaphed. Not yet, ayt any rate.
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I like this theory and find it intriguing. It is true that photographs of ghost are rarely brilliant....and the concept of identifying or experiencing exterior/ environmental stimuli on an unconscious level and constructing them into an understandable(??) or more plausable format has been suggested, evaluated and studied in psychological circles.

However, what about the photographs that are not faked, that do appear to capture 'ghosts'?? Is it possible these are, as of yet, unidentified environmental factors...similar to electromagnetism or light-levels...both of which have been identified as influencing a persons perception in 'ghost' experiences??
 
I would have thought a camera is more reliable than the human eye in capturing an image, since a camera records exactly what it sees. The eye only sees, the brain interprets, i.e. decides what is recorded as seen. It can fool us on this (getting into Schrodinger's Cat here, sorry)

Hence if ghosts cannot be seen on film they must be a product of our brains. That's not to decry them, just to say that they work on a level other than the physical world we know
 
What about ghosts acting on the environment in other ways, though, such as the sound of footsteps, objects being moved, changes in temperature, and so on?
 
Different Types of Ghosts?

There are perhaps more than one type of ghost.

I've described the first type - the perfectly-formed, almost hyper-realistic vision described in my posting above, which appears to be hallucinated in the percipient's brain (remember, I am NOT using the word hallucination it its modern sense of "delusional").

But if the soul or spirit is some type of peripatetic electro-magnet field it may create some sort of disturbance in its immediate vicinity - attracting ambient moisture to itself, for the most notable example, and creating a "foggy" effect.

That second type of ghost could surely be photographed, almost without question.
 
That was what I meant by them not being captured on recorded media without any sense of fakery. The Enfield polt' evidence though photography and recordings was terrible considering all the drama there and witnesses. Surely there would have been some 16 mm footage of undeniable evidence. If large and heavy objects are flying about, things are levitating and appearing, then howcome nothing has been recorded successfully yet? I know if my house was going through this, I'd set a few cameras up to record the events set out so there was no doubt of trickery. (Unlike MHL...chuckle!)
Then there's the matter of all these supposed ghost photos/videos that the witnesses claim are real, only when they are properly scrutinized, they appear to be fakes or at least mistaken natural things.
Still, my original post remains true, for now, ghosts are purely theory in whatever state they may be.
 
Imagine…

Your are absolutely sure that there are no paranormal phenomena, no life after death, no ghosts…so sure that you spend your whole life pouring scorn upon the poor ignorant fools who really believe in such nonsense. So sure that you wager a large sum of money upon no-one ever being able to prove such a thing, because such a thing obviously doesn’t exist.

Then, one day, you’re crossing the road, fuming whilst you read an article about some superstitious idiot who claims they saw a ghost just down the road. CRUNCH!! You’re run over by a bus. :shock:

And you’re looking down at your body, realising that it’s completely, utterly lifeless and that you are still completely conscious, which is impossible because consciousness is just an illusion (let’s not ask what it is exactly that is perceiving the illusion) created by a functioning brain (currently finely spread around the front tire of the number 70 bus to Guildford).

So, you’re, er, floating there knowing that you can’t be because you’re DEAD and there is NO SUCH THING AS A GHOST. AAAAAAARGH!!! It might just be enough to make you insane even without a brain…
 
But....

fetid71 said:
"Still, my original post remains true, for now, ghosts are purely theory in whatever state they may be."
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But....there have been thousands of recorded and attested accounts in which an ideated or "hallucinated" ghost has conveyed to the percipient information which he or she would not have otherwise known at that point in time.

So maybe ghosts are....INFORMATION?
 
What if ghosts are some sort of quantum sort of phenomenon, that is created by the brain of a human?

As an explanation, that might explain quite a bit; once you go looking for a ghost, the observer effect forces the quantum effects to choose one state or another and effectively shuts down the haunting.

It also explains why hauntings seem to like big, solid places to exist in; lots of nice heavy static matter to record the quantum effect (whatever it might be) that needs to remain static to keep the recording.

It finally explains why ghosts are so rare and only of certain animals; only something with a fairly big and active brain can create a ghost, and the creation act only happens under unusual circumstances; these mainly being death whilst the brain is highly active (which with most people, dying whilst deeply asleep in old age, it will not be).

On the down side, there is absolutely no evidence for the above, and I have no idea how you'd go about getting any evidence.
 
dan_uid0 said:
"What if ghosts are some sort of quantum sort of phenomenon, that is created by the brain of a human?"
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"Crisis apparations," as when Joe Doakes shows up in my apartment to tell me that's he's just died in the hospital, are generally regarded as "hallucinations" created in the percipient's brain or mind (although dear departed Joe and the information he bears certainly has a lot to do with it). PLEASE understand that I use the word "hallucination" in its 19th Century context, as a "mental construct," not in the modern and rather sloppy usage of "delusional."

Such phenomena are "dew on the rose"-type visions, where everything is sharply delineated, down to the mole on Joe's cheek, a bead of sweat on his forehead, even the stitching in his clothes (although they may not be the actual clothes Joe wore at death). By the way, it has been noted many times that such "hallucinated" ghosts DO reflect accirately in mirrors, from the percipient's viewpoint.
 
Quickpoints. 1) insane is a legal term and is not used in psychology etc. One would need to define the ghost's behaviour pattern in order to determine 'what has gone wrong' 2) As many problems (MENTAL) are to do with lesions and neurotransmitters/chemicals (please don't ask for a lecture) one has to question the anatomy of ghosts (are there ectoplasmic correlates?). 4) One would also want to ask what is the quality of mind of a ghost? As mind is most definetly generated by the brain (no outmoded dualism here please) does a ghost have a ghost brain that generates a ghost mind? and what energy is being used (indeed how is energy use replenished)? 3) Modern usage most certainly defines the difference between delusions and hallucinations (see Oxford Dictionary of Psychology for details).
If you look at a previous post of mine, I have posited that one possible explanations for ghost sightings may indeed by the experiencer suffering from palinopsia.
 
Considering we don't actually know for certain just how the physical brain produces the experience of consistent consciousness (assuming that it's not all just an illusionanyway), I'm not sure we can necessarily rule out the possibility that non-corporeal entities might also be able to produce consciousness.
 
Semyaz said:
"However, what about the photographs that are not faked, that do appear to capture 'ghosts'?? Is it possible these are, as of yet, unidentified environmental factors...similar to electromagnetism or light-levels...both of which have been identified as influencing a persons perception in 'ghost' experiences??"
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The most convincing "ghost" photographs I've personally seen feature smokey or mist-like substances in general humanoid shape.

My working theory is that these MAY be electro-magnetic soul-matrixes which attract water water vapor to themselves, and thus show up in photographs.

Ghosts are, after all, strongly associated with wet. rainy weather, fogs, sea coasts, humid evenings, lakes, rivers and so on. That's because they can be SEEN at those times and in those places.
 
Idea

It suddenly occurs to me that "ghosts" may have CHOICES in ways and methods in which they can materialize - as a mental "hallucination" in the mind of a living percipient, as a "mist-ghost," as something more solidified, as a mirror-reflection, as an ectoplasmic discharge and so on.
 
:lol:
Let us ask Derek Fake Aura. I'm sure he knows! :lol:
 
MrRING said:
It would seem to me that a human becoming a ghost would be a real system shock - I wonder what the psychological equivelent would be in living creatures; perhaps what happenes psychologically in people whom have been made Haitian Zombies would be a similar experience, shunned by all that you know with memories of dying...
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According to the writer of this article, a ghost may be a sort of energy zombie. That is, it's a kind of molecular energy (released during decomposition) adhering to the cellular "memory" of the body it once inhabited. This "ghost crust", as they call it, has no cognition but acts purely on instinct:
What has been found is this: that all human cells en post-mortem (which do contain measurable yet varying amounts of energy) CAN by chemical reaction (response) know instinctively precisely where they fit in a human or animal configure as energy is incrementally released from dying human (animal) cells. Essentially reform in energy the original "animal item" and in this case it denotes George and Mary Q. Lunchbox post-mortem and phases of decomposition.

Meaning that as a body is decomposing, let's say, over a five year span, energy is being released in fits and starts which was stored in the living cell now defunct. After a few years of decomp, that residual energy may actually re-form the original structure (a ghost) to some extent and even move about in a given semi-responsive pattern though non cognitive (more zombie than man). If a man it will by self-adherence to the internal chemical response, form in essence a man, if not the very man who died as he was in his binary or basic behaviors. AND even possibly act out a grouping of familiar behaviors sporadically over and over again as this was the physical motion most familiar to that person genus. If that man was a handyman it may very well still do rounds or something similar that that body did regularly or had done repetitiously while alive.
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Hmmm. Interesting article, but the science doesn't follow. Cells do not 'know' their place in the body, as though they have some form on independant consciousness. For example, genes do not pattern the brain from a blue print. As the brain grows, the process of synaptogenesis is guided by glial cells that later form into astrocytes. As neurones grow they are guided into place. The process of pruning neural pathways then continues for about 10 years. The complexity of cell placement does not lend itself to the notion of a self sustaining energy echo. Indeed the energy echo idea sounds quite similar to the notion of water having a memory, which thankfully, has been rejected as an hypothesis. I suppose the energy crust is an attempt to meld science knowledge with supernatural, but I don't think it is any more than an after 10.30pm pub idea (where according to Robert Rankin, many things can be discussed and not mentioned in the morning).
However, I am always interested in assumptions like this, so if you find some more info, I would gratefully read it :D
 
Are Ghosts Insane?

everyones missed the point, ghosts dont exist, those who claim they do are insane!
 
:? With equal validity,those who claim they don't are also insane.





Or are you omniscient?
 
robbo616 said:
:? With equal validity,those who claim they don't are also insane.

Or are you omniscient?
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damn you noticed, and yes :)
 
RealPaZZa said:
Are Ghosts Insane?

everyones missed the point, ghosts dont exist, those who claim they do are insane!
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Well I do go insane. :lol:
 
RealPaZZa said:
Are Ghosts Insane?

everyones missed the point, ghosts dont exist, those who claim they do are insane!
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So you don't hold a great deal of truck with the existence of ghosts, then? Any particular reason?
 
Just to make the point again....insane is a legal definition, not one used in mental health/psychiatry/psychology. Do we actually mean that ghosts are in denial, suffeirng from delusion of life, schizophrenic etc?
 
Or traumatised by the transition from this life to the next, like the character in The Others who was 'struck dumb' by it? But then that would make it something akin to PTSD, which most people wouldn't class as 'insane' in the informal sense...

Of course, a fair proportion of the population suffers from mental health problems in life, so technically, there's no reason the same proportion shouldn't in death, though whether it would then automatically become untreated, as you can't medicate a ghost (unless you can have the ghosts of antidepressant/antipsychotic tablets :shock: :D ) or remain as it was at the time of death, well, who knows. Probably not much point trying to overanalyse something that speculative...
 
:shock: Do ghosts believe in humans?







I'll.....er...get me coat.
 
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