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Are space shuttles armed?

Ringo

I like to not get involved in these matters
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I've no idea where to put this so it's going here. It is really just a question that came to me yesterday.

Do space missions carry weapons to defend against ET attacks? Are space shuttles armed or do they have any built-in defenses at all? Do the astronauts have any weapons at their disposal?

I would seem to me that space exploration is so expensive that it would be only common sense to build in some sort of protection or safeguarding - maybe even something more aggressive should the need be. If there are such systems in place, I can quite imagine that they would be top secret. Does anyone have any info or thoughts about this?

I did some quick digging and found a few articles which mention a US military shuttle currently in construction (launch set for 2012) capable of launching multiple strikes from space on earth based targets. This uses however, "conventional weapons" such as bombs dropped from a great height. It mentions nothing of built in defense or weapons to protect against threats from space.
 
Russian cosmonauts carry firearms as part of their survival kit but the Americans seem not to. There is a gun aboard the ISS.

I don't think the shuttle is armed, but I wouldn't be suprised to find that some sort of weapon pod existed for fitting in uncertain times - a minigun / Phalanx system that could be turned to defensive or offensive work.

Firearms work nicely in space - no need for lasers.
 
I'd think that they'd try to keep the weight down as much as possible, and since alien attack may not be seen as completely likely, they may not make provisions against it.
 
AMPHIARAUS said:
There is a gun aboard the ISS.

And probably a bible too...but hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid. 8)
 
AMPHIARAUS said:
Russian cosmonauts carry firearms as part of their survival kit but the Americans seem not to. There is a gun aboard the ISS.

That was the most likely of things I could think of - small firearms in case someone goes space mad and tries to open a door.

Obviously they are no large covert weapons systems on the space shuttle or ISS but I'd be very surprised if someone, somewhere hasn't suggested "being prepared" for a space borne attack.
 
Ringo_ said:
AMPHIARAUS said:
Russian cosmonauts carry firearms as part of their survival kit but the Americans seem not to. There is a gun aboard the ISS.

That was the most likely of things I could think of - small firearms in case someone goes space mad and tries to open a door.
Would it be safe to fire a gun* inside a spaceship? I'm not sure that it is inside an aeroplane.


*is it ever safe to fire a gun? etc
 
I'm surprised about the gun, there's a lot of kit in the ISS that wouldn't respond well to being hit by bullets. And there's the risk of puncturing the skin or shooting out a window....

There's no effective defence against a space borne attack. All you need is to insert a load of ball bearings or something similar into the same orbit in the opposite direction.
 
I wonder if there are any documented cases of people/computers going space crazy? I know that a couple of moonwalkers have viewed it as a life-changing, mystical experience, but that's not necessarily the same thing.
 
Every manned mission is armed - with intelligent people who understand their tech and can improvise if necessary. Just because it wasn't devised as a weapon doesn't mean you can't use it to defend yourself and your vehicle if you have to. Given the small probability of alien attack, it doesn't make sense to add in the extra weight.
 
James_H2 said:
Ringo_ said:
AMPHIARAUS said:
Russian cosmonauts carry firearms as part of their survival kit but the Americans seem not to. There is a gun aboard the ISS.

That was the most likely of things I could think of - small firearms in case someone goes space mad and tries to open a door.
Would it be safe to fire a gun* inside a spaceship? I'm not sure that it is inside an aeroplane.


*is it ever safe to fire a gun? etc

I don't think the Russians ever carried a gun for firing inside a spaceship (or the ISS). It's due to the fact that they land in some fairly inhospitable places when they return to Earth and may need to defend themselves against possible predators if there's a delay in reaching them.
 
That's practically a '30s SF adventure story - wild fauna on the native planet, etc.
 
Yeah, sorry, I should have said "...may need to defend themselves against possible Predators..." ;)
 
a few articles which mention a US military shuttle currently in construction (launch set for 2012) capable of launching multiple strikes from space on earth based targets. This uses however, "conventional weapons" such as bombs dropped from a great height. It mentions nothing of built in defense or weapons to protect against threats from space.
Surely a conventional bomb would have to be capable of surviving re-entry as well as finding it's target from hundreds of miles up. Missiles seem more likely, and missiles means nukes - or at least the potential to covertly load up with nukes while ostensibly complying with international law about nukes in space !
Interesting that it will be ready in 2012, just in time for the arrival of NASA's Annunaki reptilian overlords. :p
 
It doesn't matter whether its a bomb or a missile, it's still got to survive re-entry. Space-based weapons systems - unless you're dealing with real SF-style energy weapons - are pretty impractical.It'd be practically impossible, Jame Bond films notwithstanding, to built an orbital weapons platform without everyone noticing. An armed shuttle launch would be impossible to conceal and presents a single target compared with multiple small targets, that a multi-warhead ICBM would present.

Space launched missiles don't have any advantages over submarine launched or land-launched ICBMs and indeed are an easier target than submarine launched missiles.

There have been attempts to develop military space-planes, the X-20 Dyna-Soar, for example. There's the more recent semi-mythical Blackstar project by any talk of a miltary shuttle by 2012 is pure science-fiction (or rather impure conspiracy theory).

BTW: Bigfoot73, the proposed orbital and suborbital space-planes were intended to carry bombs, rather than missiles....
 
A space-based weapon doesn't need to have any explosive to do immense damage. It could be a big missile-shaped lump of metal covered in a sabot that burns off on re-entry.
The kinetic energy alone would make it suitable as a bunker-buster.
 
I should think especially the risk of someone going space-crazy would be a good reason not to have handguns aboard a shuttle. Also as mentioned, shooting a gun is bad enough aboard an airplane, not something you want to do in a space shuttle.

I would also doubt very much a space shuttle would be fitted with weapons to defend against ETs. I think NASA would want to prove there´s ET crafts zipping around up there before they bother with that. Ground based missiles and weaponry would probably be better for that anyway. The recoil of weapons could also be a problem for the stability of spacecraft.
 
Mythopoeika said:
A space-based weapon doesn't need to have any explosive to do immense damage. It could be a big missile-shaped lump of metal covered in a sabot that burns off on re-entry.
The kinetic energy alone would make it suitable as a bunker-buster.
They'd have to be dumb-bombs though and, as such, would be horrendously innaccurate.

Unless, of course, you can devise some way of creating control surfaces which could survive re-entry.
 
You can get round some of the problems of small arms fire inside a pressurised vessel with anti-hijack rounds, which are low-velocity, low-penetration. Still not advisable, especially near windows.

A taser would be much more practical. Not an air-taser, those wires could get caught on things, but the old cattle-prod should be effective in close quarters (and it's all in close quarters up there).

Of course, if you were to need something to shoot at someone/thing outside, then you have a few more choices. For ship-to-ship, you probably want to stick to rockets and missiles.

For person-to-alien, though, a well maintained sidearm ought to be sufficient. Assuming the aliens are no tougher than us. That's going to be the biggest problem, preparing for something you don't know anything about yet.
 
1.
Ringo_ said:
I did some quick digging and found a few articles which mention a US military shuttle currently in construction (launch set for 2012) capable of launching multiple strikes from space on earth based targets. This uses however, "conventional weapons" such as bombs dropped from a great height. It mentions nothing of built in defense or weapons to protect against threats from space.
Say what now?
erm... [citation needed]
no, really, this is new to me, and I'm not totally disinterested in such matters.

2. re: Russian Cosmonaut survival kits including shotguns
Those Russians seem a pragmatic lot. And there could be wolves out there in the taiga.
 
US Astronauts "splash-down", whereas Cosmonauts traditionally take the hard option. I imagine a hand gun would be a useful addition to a survival pack.
 
Space shuttles land at US airfields, as a rule, these days. Russian re-entry vehicles still come down in the middle of the steppes in Kazakhstan.

According to the Wikipedia, the Russian Soyuz craft do carry a portable survival kit, including a pistol.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soyuz_(spacecraft)

...

# Portable Survival Kit—Nosimiy Avariyniy Zapas, NAZ, containing a TP-82 or other pistol

...

Seemingly, even aboard the International Space Station, the Russians are armed with firearms, US astronauts make do with survival knives.
http://modern-war.suite101.com/article.cfm/us_survival_knives_in_space

US Survival Knives in Space

US Astronauts Carried a Wide Array of Edged Weapons

modern war.suite101.com. Christopher Eger. Apr 21, 2008

Read more at Suite101: US Survival Knives in Space: US Astronauts Carried a Wide Array of Edged Weapons http://modern-war.suite101.com/article. ... z0dnVwbyDi

Ever since the first moon rise that was looked upon by modern humans, man has thought of visiting the stars. Likewise, ever since Flash Gordon and his ray gun hit the comic books, man has looked to arming its space travelers. The first US astronauts, those of the Mercury Program, carried a special survival knife. The Randall Model 17 known as "The Astronaut Special" that was strong enough to pry open the capsule hatch if needed. It was designed by USAF Major Gordon Cooper, himself one of those original seven Right Stuff spacemen. The Randal knife was similar to the bowie-shaped survival knives of World War Two. It has a micarta handle and a 5 ½ inch long stainless steel blade. The astronauts were often presented with their knives after the mission as a souvenir. Two of these are on display at the Smithsonian Museum. One of the knives, that belonging to USAF Colonel Gus Grissom was thought lost forever. When his spacecraft LibertyBell 7 was lost in 15,000 feet of water in 1961, it took his survival knife with it. When the LibertyBell 7 was raised in 1999 the knife was found in the bottom of the tiny capsule. It was still serviceable after being under water some 3000 feet deeper than the Titanic for 38 years.

The American Gemini, Apollo and Skylab Program astronauts carried a different edged weapon, the Case MC-1 'NASA Knife'. The NASA Knife was a machete type instrument. The space capsules of the time were envisioned to make water landings and be recovered by aircraft carriers however the possibility of a landing in remote jungle areas of the equator was planned for. The MC-1 was 17 inches overall and had plastic handles. The blade has a sharpened front blade and saw-tooth style back. The photo below is of Apollo 17 astronaut Harrison Schmitt, the twelfth man on the moon, with a NASA Knife during survival training in Panama in 1970.

All US astronauts have carried these instruments and they are today even found in the bright orange ACES survival suits that modern US astronauts wear today on the space shuttle and trips to the International Space Station. Today’s astronauts carry a much simpler Swiss Army knife.

The Russians (Soviets) took it to the next level and have long carried guns in space. They even armed at least one space station with an automatic cannon and to this day carry firearms aboard the International Space Station.


Sources

Williamson, Jim The Randall Story April 1999 Knife World Magazine
 
The Russians carry a specifically designed gun with three barrels and a detachable machete.

MSNBC article

Russia has the corner on guns in space
Soyuz crews carry handguns amid debate about bigger weaponry

James Oberg
NBC News space analyst
HOUSTON - All self-respecting “space cadets” of the 1950s carried holstered sidearms to fend off the spies, wandering carnivores and assorted bug-eyed monsters they might meet in space. That was Hollywood, of course. The notion that modern space cadets blast off carrying guns is so silly that space officials won't even talk about the idea. But that does not mean the astronauts are not armed.

In fact, Moscow’s latest diplomatic offensive to get a treaty banning weapons in space may be shot down by one of the proposed pact's little-noticed provisions: Nobody else should get to put weapons in space, but Russia gets to keep the ones it already has.

Cosmonauts regularly carry handguns on their Soyuz spacecraft — and actually, that's not unreasonable. There are practical and historical justifications.


Last fall’s off-course landing of a returning Russian Soyuz spaceship, with three fliers aboard, served as a reminder that unpleasant "contingencies" can occur on even the most sophisticated space mission. Prudence dictates that some precautions be made ahead of time to handle such problems, as long as the precautions don’t introduce more hazards than the original contingency they were designed to neutralize.

The potential for landing far off course, beyond the reach of rescue forces for hours if not days, has led Russian space engineers to add special emergency kits to their landing capsules. These kits contain food rations, water bottles, warm clothing, rope for making a shelter using the capsule’s parachute, fish hooks and miscellaneous other survival gear. Gemini and Apollo spacecraft carried similar kits.

For decades, the standard Soyuz survival pack has included a gun. And not just any gun, but a deluxe all-in-one weapon with three barrels and a folding stock that doubles as a shovel and contains a swing-out machete. Three types of ammunition — rifle bullets, shotgun shells and flares — come in a belt attached to the gun.

Plans are to use it only in special circumstances on return to Earth — but in space, on occasion, plans have a way of turning out very differently. The presence of the gun, especially in light of recent space team psychological problems, may be an invitation to a future disaster.

Dropping a space bombshell
Just before last October's Soyuz launch, a British news report said that the gun, manufactured by a factory that is now in an independent country, was being phased out because all the in-stock ammunition had exceeded its certified shelf life. In its place, a standard Russian army sidearm was now to be carried.

Following up on that report, I asked Soyuz commander (and current space station resident) Yuri Malenchenko during a downlinked news briefing whether this story was true — whether there had indeed been a change in the type of weapon included in the survival kit.


Slideshow
NASA astronaut Mike Massimino is pictured as he peers through a window on the aft flight deck of the Earth-orbiting Space Shuttle Atlantis during the mission's fourth spacewalk to refurbish and upgrade the Hubble Space Telescope

After a long and lively conversation with other members of the crew, televised but with the sound off, Malenchenko answered. He denied any knowledge of a change in the type of gun, and expressed only marginal familiarity with the existence of the gun at all. He launched into the official rationalization for needing protection in case of being lost during return to Earth —an issue I had never disputed.

The two other members of his Soyuz crew — one of them, a NASA astronaut — hung in the background, silent. They had trained with the gun as part of flight preparation, too — but they weren’t about to say anything if they weren’t directly asked.

The press office at NASA's Johnson Space Center in Houston adamantly refuses to discuss the gun, saying it is a piece of Russian hardware and needs to be described by the Russians. (They know full well that the Russians have never, and probably never will, respond to such queries). NASA representatives profess to have no photographs of Americans training with the gun, although there are plenty of other training photographs from Moscow showing Americans doing other preparatory practice.

The only weapons-training photographs ever released are on the Web sites of two private spaceflight participants, South Africa's Mark Shuttleworth and Iranian-American entrepreneur Anoushah Ansari, both multimillionaires — and both of whom have posed for a photo with the gun in their hands.

In flight, the gun is packed in a metal canister that remains stashed between two of the three couches in the Soyuz. If all goes well, the canister is never opened. At the end of the mission, after landing, the gun is usually presented as a gift to the Soyuz spacecraft commander.

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Originally, guns began being packed on Soyuz flights after a far off-course landing in March 1965 led to stories of encounters with wolves (or in some versions, a very hungry bear). Cosmonauts loved recounting these stories, even though official accounts later made it clear that some wolves had only been spotted by a rescue helicopter a mile or two from the downed capsule, and chased off from the air — the cosmonauts never even saw them. But good survival stories are hard to resist.

Guns were never carried aboard U.S. spacecraft. Instead, a sharp machete served as the most serious armament for a jungle landing. Besides, with a worldwide U.S. network of bases and existing air-sea rescue forces, odds were that any downed astronauts would be found and rescued pretty quickly. The same now goes for Soyuz spacecraft supporting the international space station and usually carrying an U.S. crewmember at launch and landing — any off-course vehicle would have the entire U.S. rescue team at their disposal almost immediately. But the legend of the hungry wolves trumps current realities, so the guns have remained.
CONTINUED : Should space be a gun-free zone?
 
Philo_T said:
1.
Ringo_ said:
I did some quick digging and found a few articles which mention a US military shuttle currently in construction (launch set for 2012) capable of launching multiple strikes from space on earth based targets. This uses however, "conventional weapons" such as bombs dropped from a great height. It mentions nothing of built in defense or weapons to protect against threats from space.
Say what now?
erm... [citation needed]
no, really, this is new to me, and I'm not totally disinterested in such matters.

Sorry, bad form not to post a link. I only left it out because the general cut and thrust of my question was whether space missions had weapons/protection from space attacks (whereas this was weapons to be used against targets on earth).

It came from here: .www.answers.com/space-shuttle-program although I have no idea how accurate this info is. I saw it written elsewhere (can't find it now) but it may have been taken from here anyway
 
danny_cogdon said:
Mythopoeika said:
A space-based weapon doesn't need to have any explosive to do immense damage. It could be a big missile-shaped lump of metal covered in a sabot that burns off on re-entry.
The kinetic energy alone would make it suitable as a bunker-buster.
They'd have to be dumb-bombs though and, as such, would be horrendously innaccurate.

Unless, of course, you can devise some way of creating control surfaces which could survive re-entry.

Certain ceramics and carbon compounds may be used for this purpose. They may be able to bear the heat just enough to steer it before reaching melting point. But yes, it'd be pretty inaccurate.
 
I believe that was the basis one one of the proposed US space weapons called 'gods rods', iirc 6 foot long rods of tungsten dropped from orbit that hit the earth at a completely bonkers velocity and temperature.
 
Ringo_ said:
AMPHIARAUS said:
Russian cosmonauts carry firearms as part of their survival kit but the Americans seem not to. There is a gun aboard the ISS.

That was the most likely of things I could think of - small firearms in case someone goes space mad and tries to open a door.

Obviously they are no large covert weapons systems on the space shuttle or ISS but I'd be very surprised if someone, somewhere hasn't suggested "being prepared" for a space borne attack.

I agree. Given that anti-satellite (and implicitly anti-shuttle) weapons are mostly missiles a point defense system like a radar guided minigun would be a good idea should the political situation turn nasty. It would also work nicely at turning other peoples spy-sats into scrap too.

I can't see it being fitted in peacetime though.
 
James_H2 said:
Ringo_ said:
AMPHIARAUS said:
Russian cosmonauts carry firearms as part of their survival kit but the Americans seem not to. There is a gun aboard the ISS.

That was the most likely of things I could think of - small firearms in case someone goes space mad and tries to open a door.
Would it be safe to fire a gun* inside a spaceship? I'm not sure that it is inside an aeroplane.


*is it ever safe to fire a gun? etc

Mythbusters showed that the idea of explosive decompression was bogus. They took a scrap airliner, pressurised it and then shot the skin and windows - result was just a small air leak.

Far more danger in hitting a critical system - although there will be redundancy in those systems.
 
Given the relevant differences in technology levels between a bunch of semi-evolved apes and an insterstellar space travellling species, would there be any point in even trying to arm a shuttle?


"So Thog, canoe ready to go look for new islands?"

"Yes."

"What if we meet bad people who don't like us."

"That why we carry spears Ug. And new secret super weapon: bow and arrow."

"That is good. We ba able to kick anyone's ass."

Two days later, the USS Abraham Lincoln battle group steams into view...
 
misterwibble said:
Given the relevant differences in technology levels between a bunch of semi-evolved apes and an insterstellar space travellling species, would there be any point in even trying to arm a shuttle?


"So Thog, canoe ready to go look for new islands?"

"Yes."

"What if we meet bad people who don't like us."

"That why we carry spears Ug. And new secret super weapon: bow and arrow."

"That is good. We ba able to kick anyone's ass."

Two days later, the USS Abraham Lincoln battle group steams into view...

:lol:

Succinctly put.
 
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