British Rock Carvings

[gyrtrash]

Cup-and-ring markings

So...

Anyone hazard a guess as to what it's all about?

I'm baffled... (ain't hard to do!...)

Are there any near you? Got any pics?

Meself, I think it's a water thing. In my part of the country anyways...
A map of the 'holy' springs?

http://home.freeuk.com/rooted/cupring1.html

seems to be a world-wide thing...

there're loads near me (west yorkshire) and I don't think anyone has a clue, really...

Input please!

http://www.templum.freeserve.co.uk/history/prehistory/stoneage.htm

 

[Mythopoeika]

They were probably just doodles by bored kids, thousands of years ago. Or they were depictions of crop circles.

 

[Anonymous]

Astronomical maps?

Boundary marking stones, containing mapped information about tribal and family groups?

 

[Timble2]

Balnuaran of Clava

I think that some of them are star maps. The attached image shows a cup marked stone by the side of a passage into one of the South western of the three cairns at the Balnuaran of Clava (Clava Cairns) near Inverness. The passage is approximately aligned to the Midwinter Sunset.

There’re are other cup-marked stones on the site, but not any that look so obviously astronomical.

I speculated whether it could be a route map for the dead

I’ve had to darken the cupmarks in Paintshop as they don’t show up too well at this resolution.

Here’s a link where you can also see the cupmarks.
http://www.ancient-scotland.co.uk/picframe/clava1_picfrm.html


BTW
At the time (1998) when I visited the site and pointed out the resemblance to a star map to my brother, I joked that we could start an alternative history theory ‘Star Gods of the Ancient Celts’ on the principle that there’s so many ancient sites dotted across Scotland, you could tie them up to various constellations (e.g. the cairns on this site were pretty much the belt of Orion), and by building in real astronomical alignments at some of the sites, make quite a convincing case.

I was joking, Googling just to check a couple of facts before posting I found this site:

http://www.megaliths.co.uk/balnuaran.htm

I think he’s taking it seriously. And he’s not spotted the map of Orion that I found among the cup and ring marks of a stone in the Kilmartin valley (I don’t think that’s what it really is, but it corresponds better than stuff I’ve seen in some alternative archaeology books and websites).

The problem with star map theories is that different cultures see different patterns in the stars and tying up what an ancient Celt saw as important in the sky with modern star maps, is difficult if not impossible.


BTW again, this complex of standing stones and cairns is worth visiting if you’re in the area, its relative remoteness means you’re not going to be overwhelmed by tourists.

 

[JamesWhitehead]

A two-part survey of cup-and-ring marks in Scotland was published
in the Transactions of the Ancient Monuments Society, New Series,
volumes XIV & XVI, 1967, 1968 - 69. It was written by Ronald W. B.
Morris with large tables of these ancient marks and many pages of
photographs.

The designs on page 80 of the earlier volume strike me as remarkably
similar to corn circle shapes!

 

[Anonymous]

I always linked them with the stone circles - and symbolic representations of the cosmos- -that is, the circle is a continuum, a cycle, represents eternity, etc. Whether this is derived from some sort of abstraction of the physical (like the triangle:vagina relationship) I don't know.

But the orgins of geometry fascinate me - the way that so many now 'mathematical' shapes came from attempts to simplify and depict the natural world into ideal shapes. I'd speculate that cup and rings are aspects of this early process of developing geometry.

 

[carole]

How widespread are they?

I saw some on a rock in the north of Qatar (Arabian Gulf)

Carole

 

[gyrtrash]

How widespread are they?

I saw some on a rock in the north of Qatar (Arabian Gulf)

Carole

"...the Bethel stones of Israel and the Middle East can also enter this category."
(From http://home.freeuk.com/rooted/cupring1.html )

Maybe they were related to these Carol?

Got any piccies?


Here's one from my neck of the woods; the 'Swastika stone'.

(Actually, this is the copy that sits next to the original! It's much clearer!)

 

[marion]

Pool Farm Cist

Not cup and ring markings-cup and feet markings!

These were found on a rock associated with a stone cist burial near Priddy in Somerset. The Calderstones in Liverpool have cup and ring marks and spirals as well as feet and these also were part of a grave,this time a passage grave.

Here is a description and pic of the Somerset stone which has been moved to Bristol Museum. There is a concrete replica replacement at the original site. There is a link on the page to info on the Calderstones.

So now feet are added to the mystery!

 

[marion]

The interpretation diagram of the magnetometer readings at Stanton Drew stone circles reminds me of the cup and ring marks with 'tails' , here.

 

[gyrtrash]

You mean the 'Swastika stone'?

This is an unusual one for this region;-

The Swastika Stone is arguably associated with this style of rock art, due to its use of cup-marks, but I have recently come to see it as most likely originating in the Iron Age, or even during Roman occupation. This is because of Verbeia, a Romano-Celtic goddess revered by the Roman troops stationed in Ilkley (then Olicana). Verbeia is often accepted as being a version of the Celtic spring/fire goddess Brigid, who is still associated with swastika-like symbols in Ireland. Also, the Roman cohort which set up her altar were recruited from the Lingones, a Gaulish Celtic tribe. Apparently Romano-Celtic coins have been found in Gaul bearing swastika-like designs. It seems tempting to think that the Lingones cohort carved the Swastika Stone when they were here, but this would surely be unusual. Or perhaps the recruited Celtic/Roman troops were influenced in their choice of 'genuis loci', Verbeia, by the native Celts of West Yorkshire, the Brigantes (whose name derives from the goddess Brigantia, related to Brigid), who may have already carved the stone.

From; http://rupestre.net/tracce/swastika.html

(The cup-and-ring marks are usually more like the attachment here.)

As a nice case of synchronicity, I was researching and photographing some obscure stones near me a few weekends ago. I came across a story from 1998, describing 'floating, grey hooded figures' being seen around the area where the stones are very concentrated. I think the story was recounted as a ghost tale.
Tonight I was reading an old thread about 'cloaked beings' (by accident, as I was looking for 'Bonnybridge' stuff) and came across the 'Genii cucullati' - hooded figures, defenders of a 'mother goddess'?
Hmmm!
Must look into this!

 

[marion]

You mean the 'Swastika stone'?

No,like the ones with concentric rings with a line or parallel lines coming from the centre .

Are the cups carved on natural outcrops always on a flat surface,i.e. able to hold liquid?

 

[gyrtrash]

Are the cups carved on natural outcrops always on a flat surface,i.e. able to hold liquid?

Usually, but not always. There have been theories that they were used to hold ritual/holy water or blood.
I read somewhere that they are nearly always in sight of water...or were at the time of carving.

 

[gyrtrash]

Strange carved hole in rock...

Here's a curious thing.

It's about a metre wide and 20 centimetres deep. It's almost like a huge circular 'core' was taken out of the rock. It's very well defined, I thought it looked almost 'machined'...
It's at a place called Rivock Edge, on the southern flanks of Ilkley Moor.

Any ideas?

 

[gyrtrash]

Ok...

Here's a bit of a closer look...

 

[Jerry_B]

Looks natural to me, I must say.

 

[gyrtrash]

Looks natural to me, I must say.

Natural, in what way?

Weathered?

The hole (if I remember) is a uniform depth all round.
My mate thought it could've been caused by a pocket of gas trapped in the rock when it was formed? (But it's not 'spherical'...)

 

[Jerry_B]

Well, it could be a very old feature of the rock from when it was being formed (which is possible if it's old rock from a natural outcropping). If those rocks are there because of glacial scattering, drips, freezing and thawing could make such marks, perhaps if the face that shows the mark was once angled in a different direction.

See the recent thread about the 'Oklahomah Fortress'

 

[Anonymous]

The rocks around Ilkey Moor are millstone grit- aren't they?
You don't get pockets of gas forming in this rock- it is a sedimentary rock, formed under water.

It may be a remnant of some kind of mining activity- a sampling method of some sort, or an equipment test-
humans have been very active in Ilkley for a long time now...

 

[Anome]

The rocks around Ilkey Moor are millstone grit- aren't they?
You don't get pockets of gas forming in this rock- it is a sedimentary rock, formed under water.

Maybe someone wanted to make a millstone? Tenuous link, I know, but the hole is about the right size and shape.

Of course, cutting a perfectly formed millstone from a much larger rock doesn't seem likely.

 

[Mighty_Emperor]

My first thought is that it was a millstone - I have seen numerous examples of millstones being cut right from the bed rock - esp. Roman ones (although ironically never in millstone grit which I know well). It makes more sense to hack it out in situ and then remove it from the area. Although th examples I've seen are horizontal if you carved them in the vertical you wouldn't have the same problems with actually lifting the millstone out and onto some kind of sled.

It could also be natural as I have seen pot holes with some very regular shapes - a pebble gets into a depression in the bed of a stream and gets swirled around scouring out an impressive hole.

Emps

 

[gyrtrash]

I know what you mean JerryB, there are rocks up there that have holes probabley caused by weathering, when the stone was angled differently. The attachment shows 4 such depressions that now sit on a vertical face (or it's a line of indentations from an alien weapon of the future... )
Can freezing, thawing etc. make a perfect flat-bottomed circle of a uniform depth though?
I like your idea of a pebble creating it over time, Emperor. (Of course the pebble would have to last a long time and be tougher than Millstone grit!)...

It does look millstone-sized.
But if you carve a millstone, don't you start with a large rock and knock bits off 'til it's round?!

I'd like to see the machine that can take a 'core' out of millstone grit. I guess the technology has been about for years?
The outcrop looked pretty natural. I'll try and find out if there was any quarrying at that particular site.

 

[Mighty_Emperor]

David Raven:

I like your idea of a pebble creating it over time, Emperor. (Of course the pebble would have to last a long time and be tougher than Millstone grit!)...

One argeument against it being a millstone is, although I might be mistaken, that I think the irony is that by and large millstone grit is far too gritty to make a good millstone - it tends to be rather coarse and if you rub it with your thumb it is rather crumbly. That said a weathered exposure like that might work OK.

Thats said:

But if you carve a millstone, don't you start with a large rock and knock bits off 'til it's round?!

Well I'm sure it might be but the evidence for this would be fragmentary. The pictures I have seen of obvious millstone production have been straight sided holes like the ones in your pictures.

It would largely depend on the weathering and the cross section of the holes, etc. I'd also contact the local archaeological society as they may already have information on this - most areas have had field walking surveys done (then again they might have missed something).

Emps

 

[Anome]

It does look millstone-sized.
But if you carve a millstone, don't you start with a large rock and knock bits off 'til it's round?!

That's the flaw with the theory. I honestly know nothing about millstone grit. (There seems to be some conflicts here, most are saying it's too hard, but at least one person says it crumbles easily.)

 

[gyrtrash]

Millstone Grit is 'ard. It's so called cos it's good for making mill-stones!


Ok, I'll come clean...

I wanted your erudite opinions on this. A few years ago a guy discovered something up here, he thought it to be ancient, artificial and astronomically aligned. I'm pretty sure this is what he found.
His ideas were expounded in my local newspaper. I thought I'd go find it for myself...

And see what you lot thought!

If this is what he found, and I reckon it is, then he says (in an email);-

The large circular Carving at Rivock Edge apparently seems to align with the Solstice setting Sun on the
longest day to within 1.8 Degrees. As you will no
doubt be aware, I have written a couple of Books
about it and other strange carved stones at Baildon
and Ilkley Moors.

He has a webpage;-

http://www.staff.brad.ac.uk/gtholmes/


Solar-aligned carving?

Anyone heard of anything similar?

 

[marion]

Aligned with what else though? You can align anything with the solstice sunrise if you stand in the right place.

 

[gyrtrash]

Aligned with what else though? You can align anything with the solstice sunrise if you stand in the right place.

Not sure. I haven't read his books!

I've emailed him for clarification.
(I recall seeing a sort of er, 'nipple' in the center of the depression. Maybe that aligns? With what tho' I don't know. I look forward to his reply).

 

[Anonymous]

I'm afraid I'm at a loss at what I should be looking at in the pictures.

As to the comments - I would imagine that a worked piece of stone will show evidence of having been worked on. Smooth doesn't mean worked, and anybody who's walked on a beach and picked up stones is likely to have found a variety of different circular and oval marks that are entirely natural.

As for the alignment - it entirely depends upon what time period is being invoked. Because of the movement of the earth upon its axis (procession, I believe is the term) then anything that aligns with the solstice in modern times almost certainly did not a thousand years ago.

 

[Timble2]

Birnam Hill Cup and Ring Marks

My brother posted me a couple of pictures of cup and ring marks from Birnam Hill, Perthshire, Scotland.

From a larger picture, it looks as if it's on vertical surface and overlooking the Tay, (from about 300 feet).

Here

 

[Timble2]

Here's slice from the larger picture showing the the picture in the previous post towards the top and some other cup-marks lower down.