Census Conspiracies

[ramonmercado]

What's it really about? Why do they want to know how many bedrooms you have? Just tell them you don't contract with them!

Census 2022: the latest battleground of Irish conspiracy theorists​

Covid conspiracy groups have provided a ready-made infrastructure for the spread of census misinformation​

about 20 hours ago

by Conor Gallagher

The census, once the relatively uncontroversial collection of information for the provision of public services, has become the latest antagonist for Ireland’s small but vocal conspiracy theorist community.

Misinformation about the census, which takes place on April 3rd, is being spread on large social media groups which established during the pandemic to oppose measures such as lockdowns and masks.

With these measures in the rearview mirror – for now at least – some of these groups have pivoted to other causes, including the idea that the census is a means of Government coercion.

These Covid-19 conspiracy groups, on platforms such as Facebook and Telegram, have provided a ready-made infrastructure for the spread of this census misinformation to tens of thousands of social media users.

It is not just Ireland that is experiencing a newfound distrust of the census. Authorities in the US, UK, Greece and Australia have been battling an upsurge in census-related conspiracy theories in recent months and years.

The Irish census is being conducted by the Central Statistics Office (CSO) which, it is understood, has been monitoring the spread of misinformation online.

In relative terms, the number of people who believe in these conspiracy theories is very small but the issue has caused some concern among officials.

The most prominent census misinformation relates to a new question on the 2022 form asking about the number of bedrooms in a house. Conspiracy theorists claim this is to allow the Government to assess how many migrants or refugees homeowners will be forced to take in. The Ukrainian refugee crisis has only added fuel to this theory. ...

Census conspiracy theories sometimes accompany racist or anti-migrant sentiments. One far-right activist has complained about the television advertisement for the census showing too many non-white people, while another believes the inclusion of Roma people under the heading of “white” is a “trick to fudge statistics”.

Much of this misinformation is accompanied by nonsensical legal theories common in the Freeman of the Land movements, which are active in several parts of Ireland. These movements variously claim that governments are corporations, that citizens do not have to do anything unless they actively consent – like pay taxes – and that almost all laws are invalid.

“Our reasons for urging people to not fill out the census is because we want no contract with the government that has actively tried to destroy our people and our way of life over the last two year,” said a group called Anti-Lockdown Ireland.

“If the census people come to your front door pull out your phone and start recording them,” another person said in a widely shared video which has been viewed many thousands of times. “When they tell you you have to fill out the census, you tell them ‘show me the contract with my name and the other party’s name to say I consented to take part in this year’s census’.” ....

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ire...round-of-irish-conspiracy-theorists-1.4836075

 

[Floyd]

What's it really about? Why do they want to know how many bedrooms you have? Just tell them you don't contract with them!

Census 2022: the latest battleground of Irish conspiracy theorists​

Covid conspiracy groups have provided a ready-made infrastructure for the spread of census misinformation​

about 20 hours ago

by Conor Gallagher

The census, once the relatively uncontroversial collection of information for the provision of public services, has become the latest antagonist for Ireland’s small but vocal conspiracy theorist community.

Misinformation about the census, which takes place on April 3rd, is being spread on large social media groups which established during the pandemic to oppose measures such as lockdowns and masks.

With these measures in the rearview mirror – for now at least – some of these groups have pivoted to other causes, including the idea that the census is a means of Government coercion.

These Covid-19 conspiracy groups, on platforms such as Facebook and Telegram, have provided a ready-made infrastructure for the spread of this census misinformation to tens of thousands of social media users.

It is not just Ireland that is experiencing a newfound distrust of the census. Authorities in the US, UK, Greece and Australia have been battling an upsurge in census-related conspiracy theories in recent months and years.

The Irish census is being conducted by the Central Statistics Office (CSO) which, it is understood, has been monitoring the spread of misinformation online.

In relative terms, the number of people who believe in these conspiracy theories is very small but the issue has caused some concern among officials.

The most prominent census misinformation relates to a new question on the 2022 form asking about the number of bedrooms in a house. Conspiracy theorists claim this is to allow the Government to assess how many migrants or refugees homeowners will be forced to take in. The Ukrainian refugee crisis has only added fuel to this theory. ...

Census conspiracy theories sometimes accompany racist or anti-migrant sentiments. One far-right activist has complained about the television advertisement for the census showing too many non-white people, while another believes the inclusion of Roma people under the heading of “white” is a “trick to fudge statistics”.

Much of this misinformation is accompanied by nonsensical legal theories common in the Freeman of the Land movements, which are active in several parts of Ireland. These movements variously claim that governments are corporations, that citizens do not have to do anything unless they actively consent – like pay taxes – and that almost all laws are invalid.

“Our reasons for urging people to not fill out the census is because we want no contract with the government that has actively tried to destroy our people and our way of life over the last two year,” said a group called Anti-Lockdown Ireland.

“If the census people come to your front door pull out your phone and start recording them,” another person said in a widely shared video which has been viewed many thousands of times. “When they tell you you have to fill out the census, you tell them ‘show me the contract with my name and the other party’s name to say I consented to take part in this year’s census’.” ....

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ire...round-of-irish-conspiracy-theorists-1.4836075

This sounds similar to the same reason that you do not have to pay the TV licence, according to some people.

 

[Kondoru]

Oh, I insisted on a paper one.

Does that count?

 

[Mythopoeika]

Oh, I insisted on a paper one.

So did I. I need something to act as a reminder.

 

[GNC]

I did the Scottish census a few days ago, and the only thing I had minor issue with were the questions obsessed with my sexuality. These census CTists seem to treat the census takers like Bogus Social Workers or something,

 

[Kondoru]

Yes, why do they need to know that?

Its not like they are going to date us?

(looks hopeful)

Or maybe they are.

 

[GNC]

I guess gender is very zeitgeisty these days. In the past it would have been about coal or your castor oil intake or something.

 

[Mythopoeika]

I don't know why they need to know this information.
However... it is information that could be misused if an evil government gets into power.

 

[CALGACUS03]

Am I allowed to claim that I'm a meat popsicle? **looks hopeful**

 

[Mythopoeika]

Am I allowed to claim that I'm a meat popsicle? **looks hopeful**

Join the club. You will have to ask a mod nicely, because that may be the only way to change it.

 

[ramonmercado]

In the RoI Census I'm going to put my religion as Believer in Biology.

 

[EnolaGaia]

Am I allowed to claim that I'm a meat popsicle? **looks hopeful**

Join the club. You will have to ask a mod nicely, because that may be the only way to change it.

CALGACUS03:

If you mean making that claim on your forum ID display (like Mythopoeika) you can do it yourself under the "Account Details" section of your account settings.

 

[oxo66]

I did the Scottish census a few days ago, and the only thing I had minor issue with were the questions obsessed with my sexuality. These census CTists seem to treat the census takers like Bogus Social Workers or something,

Yes, why do they need to know that?

Sexual orientation and gender identity were asked in the UK censuses for the same reasons as other identity questions have been asked for decades: to monitor the characteristics of the population; to allow government and others to plan services appropriate to different groups' needs; and to provide evidence for disadvantage and discrimination across groups.

The 2010 Equality Act made it unlawful to discriminate against someone on the grounds of: age, disability, gender reassignment, marriage or civil partnership, pregnancy and maternity, race, religion/belief, sex (gender) and sexual orientation so arguably sexual orientation and gender identity should have been collected in 2011.

oxo

 

[CALGACUS03]

If you mean making that claim on your forum ID display (like Mythopoeika) you can do it yourself under the "Account Details" section of your account settings.

No, it was more about putting it on my census return.

 

[maximus otter]

I’m happy with telling the government the basic details of who lives at my address: Name, age, sex, occupation, etc.

Anything more than that, and they can Foxtrot Oscar. l am aware of concepts like mission creep and data aggregation.

maximus otter

 

[Ascalon]

I’m happy with telling the government the basic details of who lives at my address: Name, age, sex, occupation, etc.

Anything more than that, and they can Foxtrot Oscar. l am aware of concepts like mission creep and data aggregation.

maximus otter

I'm curious as to what you are getting at here.

If public services are going to be improved, and especially, expanded, how is that to be done without data gathering?

And secondly, if you are informed what the data is for, how it will be used, stored, treated and shared, what's the objection?

 

[maximus otter]

If public services are going to be improved, and especially, expanded, how is that to be done without data gathering?

And secondly, if you are informed what the data is for, how it will be used, stored, treated and shared, what's the objection?

a) Government expansion is something I'm concerned about. Government's number one task is always to facilitate the creation of more government.

b) "Census: Germany, 1933: Religion?"

- And, as always, my overarching concern is privacy.

maximus otter

 

[Ascalon]

a) Government expansion is something I'm concerned about. Government's number one task is always to facilitate the creation of more government.

b) "Census: Germany, 1933: Religion?"

- And, as always, my overarching concern is privacy.

maximus otter

And what do you think is the loss of privacy in sharing information for the purposes of building public services?

In fairness, this is the dichotomy that we all face: no one wants more government, but everyone wants more services.

By the same token, we whinge when things aren't done right because they are badly planned.

The first element of planning is gathering information.

Census information is not made publicly available, except where anonymised and suitably unattributable.

However, it is vital for providing services to the citizenry.

The paper heavy, people intensive services we have today are never going to scale to future needs. It makes all kinds of sense to use digital systems to deliver the stuff that doesn't need face to face.

That frees up people to deal with people where a human interaction is necessary and beneficial.

But again, data is the basis of all of this.

 

[maximus otter]

And what do you think is the loss of privacy in sharing information for the purposes of building public services?

In fairness, this is the dichotomy that we all face: no one wants more government, but everyone wants more services.

By the same token, we whinge when things aren't done right because they are badly planned.

The first element of planning is gathering information.

Census information is not made publicly available, except where anonymised and suitably unattributable.

However, it is vital for providing services to the citizenry.

The paper heavy, people intensive services we have today are never going to scale to future needs. It makes all kinds of sense to use digital systems to deliver the stuff that doesn't need face to face.

That frees up people to deal with people where a human interaction is necessary and beneficial.

But again, data is the basis of all of this.

I don't so much believe in the old Left/Right idea. I think we can be split into two broad groups:

a) People who think that government is a good thing, therefore the more of it the better, because "public services" and other buzzwords, and;

b) People who don't (a), like me.

The idea that "data" is some neutral, harmless commodity, to be employed in perpetuity by a universally-benevolent group of public-spirited and disinterested nobles is, in my opinion, wrong.

Our lords and masters need a certain amount of information about me and mine: How many? What sex? How much do you earn so that we can take it? The further they go beyond the basics, the more my brows furrow.

I always remember an anecdote from decades ago: Back in the - Fifties? Sixties? - a US ice cream firm asked customers to fill out a wee questionnaire in its shops: Just basic info: Name, address, date of birth and so on. The reward was that you were entitled to a free lolly on your birthday. Who could disagree with a charming, innocent idea like that?

The US government bought the data, and years later used it to send out draft notices for service in Vietnam...

maximus otter

 

[Floyd]

My dentist is private and for years and years it was fine. I'd go in, wait in a nice waiting room for 5 minutes and then get sorted. Last time I went I now have to fill a form in asking how much I smoke and drink, any illnesses I may have had etc etc. For over 20 years this information wasn't needed at the dentist. Why is it now?

 

[Mythopoeika]

My dentist is private and for years and years it was fine. I'd go in, wait in a nice waiting room for 5 minutes and then get sorted. Last time I went I now have to fill a form in asking how much I smoke and drink, any illnesses I may have had etc etc. For over 20 years this information wasn't needed at the dentist. Why is it now?

I get asked this every time I have a check-up, then I have to attempt a badly-scrawled signature on an iPad.
It must be some legal requirement.

 

[Floyd]

I get asked this every time I have a check-up, then I have to attempt a badly-scrawled signature on an iPad.
It must be some legal requirement.

I got annoyed about it and said it was ridiculous. Never pee off a dentist who is about to stick a long needle in your mouth though. I'm sure she went in extra hard on purpose.

 

[oxo66]

I always remember an anecdote from decades ago: Back in the - Fifties? Sixties? - a US ice cream firm asked customers to fill out a wee questionnaire in its shops: Just basic info: Name, address, date of birth and so on. The reward was that you were entitled to a free lolly on your birthday. Who could disagree with a charming, innocent idea like that?

The US government bought the data, and years later used it to send out draft notices for service in Vietnam...

I felt I had to reply to this because it's so obviously untrue - the US government has access to better information than buying the birthday list from an ice cream parlour.

Or so I thought. According to Snopes it's true. Happened in 1983 or 4 though.


But I take a different view on what this tells us: the ice cream-loving boys gave their data to the ice cream firm who then sold that data on without their consent, in fact without the boys knowing that they were giving out valuable and saleable information at all.
When households fill in a government or third sector survey it will be clear what information they are giving, and it should be clear what purposes it will be used for. I'm aware that's a 'should' not a 'will', but I think that's a safer basis than info we give out to commercial bodies.

 

[maximus otter]

When households fill in a government or third sector survey it will be clear what information they are giving, and it should be clear what purposes it will be used for.

Consider, however, my thoughts about “mission creep”. Who knows how a future regime might use all of this current data; who knows what said regime will feel entitled to demand from us in the way of yet further information?

l’ll continue to give the bare, irreducible minimum; parties who seem to want to pry won’t be getting my support.

maximus otter

 

[Floyd]

Consider, however, my thoughts about “mission creep”. Who knows how a future regime might use all of this current data; who knows what said regime will feel entitled to demand from us in the way of yet further information?

l’ll continue to give the bare, irreducible minimum; and parties who seem to want to pry won’t be getting my support.

maximus otter

I agree, but don't they know everything about us anyway? (If they really want to). If you have a phone and use a credit/debit card they know where you are and what you buy for a start- if you drink/smoke/are vegan/like hula hoops.... I'm sure they will also know what sex we are (birth certificates), where you live, what car you drive - (if any) - what sho-shal media you use and what your political views are, how much money you have in the bank, what size condoms you use (XXXXL)...........

 

[Ascalon]

Consider, however, my thoughts about “mission creep”. Who knows how a future regime might use all of this current data; who knows what said regime will feel entitled to demand from us in the way of yet further information?

l’ll continue to give the bare, irreducible minimum; parties who seem to want to pry won’t be getting my support.

maximus otter

OK, you are conflating two different issues here.

Data gathering for legitimate purposes and data misuse.

Of course, as data handling, analysis and application becomes more sophisticated then the more that is gathered of varying sorts, the more can be done with it to provide services.

However, there is always the possibility of misuses, either inadvertent or deliberate.

The likes of GDPR legislation and digital controls make it harder to misuse data, but not impossible. The fact remains, for our digital world, digital services are necessary and they are built on data. The issue is to ensure that sufficient controls are in place to make its use, not the data itself, transparent, and agreed.
They are two separate issues.

 

[maximus otter]

OK, you are conflating two different issues here.

Data gathering for legitimate purposes and data misuse.

Of course, as data handling, analysis and application becomes more sophisticated then the more that is gathered of varying sorts, the more can be done with it to provide services.

However, there is always the possibility of misuses, either inadvertent or deliberate.

The likes of GDPR legislation and digital controls make it harder to misuse data, but not impossible. The fact remains, for our digital world, digital services are necessary and they are built on data. The issue is to ensure that sufficient controls are in place to make its use, not the data itself, transparent, and agreed.
They are two separate issues.

- All of which, again, presupposes that all governments, for all time, will remain benevolent custodians of totally secure data.

Even if we suppose that all future regimes will be concerned with nothing more than the public good, the fact that they aggregate vast quantities of our information means that they are setting themselves up for attack; attacks which, on current evidence, they are sadly ill-eqipped to prevent.

May I recommend a Google search under "hackers steal government data", or words to that effect.

They'll get what I believe they need, and as little as possible more.

maximus otter

 

[Kondoru]

Jenkinson, the noted Archivist said that the wonderful thing about past records, was that today the are used for data which their compilers would never have imagined.

 

[Ascalon]

- All of which, again, presupposes that all governments, for all time, will remain benevolent custodians of totally secure data.

Even if we suppose that all future regimes will be concerned with nothing more than the public good, the fact that they aggregate vast quantities of our information means that they are setting themselves up for attack; attacks which, on current evidence, they are sadly ill-eqipped to prevent.

May I recommend a Google search under "hackers steal government data", or words to that effect.

They'll get what I believe they need, and as little as possible more.

maximus otter

Alas, as the editor of an IT professional journal for 15 years, and head of content for 5 more, I'm all too aware of the cybersecurity implications. I've hosted conferences on the very subject, and will be again in my current role again in April and May (IIoT and OT, international cyber risk management, respectively).

However, the 'bad guys might get it' is no reason in the world not to try to do something good.

Yes, we are pre-supposing good intentions from government and related bodies. Yes, we are doing the same for the gathering, storage and use of data, but what is the alternative?

To have paper-based, siloed, unconnected services where you have to have a first encounter every single time you use it? How would that work in healthcare? How would that work with driver licensing? Or anything else that requires you to have a certified identity and associated credentials?

I suggest you look up blockchains and self-sovereign identity management, as well as Slovenia's SI Chain and its pilot applications. There is a lot that can be done, safely and well, that respects private citizens' right to privacy, while providing service levels we have come to expect.

BTW, are you a social media user at all? Or eBay, Amazon, AliExpress or other online market place?

I'm not trying to convince you to part with your data, I'm merely arguing that fear of misuse or misappropriation is a pretty crap reason for being unambitious in public services.

 

[maximus otter]

Alas, as the editor of an IT professional journal for 15 years, and head of content for 5 more, I'm all too aware of the cybersecurity implications. I've hosted conferences on the very subject, and will be again in my current role again in April and May (IIoT and OT, international cyber risk management, respectively).

However, the 'bad guys might get it' is no reason in the world not to try to do something good.

Yes, we are pre-supposing good intentions from government and related bodies. Yes, we are doing the same for the gathering, storage and use of data, but what is the alternative?

To have paper-based, siloed, unconnected services where you have to have a first encounter every single time you use it? How would that work in healthcare? How would that work with driver licensing? Or anything else that requires you to have a certified identity and associated credentials?

I suggest you look up blockchains and self-sovereign identity management, as well as Slovenia's SI Chain and its pilot applications. There is a lot that can be done, safely and well, that respects private citizens' right to privacy, while providing service levels we have come to expect.

BTW, are you a social media user at all? Or eBay, Amazon, AliExpress or other online market place?

I'm not trying to convince you to part with your data, I'm merely arguing that fear of misuse or misappropriation is a pretty crap reason for being unambitious in public services.

l defer to your depth of knowledge on the subject, but let’s just say that l remain unconvinced.

maximus otter