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Christian Mysticism

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I was wondering if there are any other people here who are, or are familiar with Christian magicians/mystics? I am one, albeit an amateur and I don't know any others personally.
 
I'm not sure (sorry) about your terms here. Mystics ie Theresa of Avila, Thomas Merton, Emerson? The reference to "magician" throws me a little.

Also apologies because I need to run out of the house in three minutes. I'll be back, though. Happy to discuss this further. :)
 
I apologize, as I actually lack in good terms to describe it. By the mystic part I mean someone who studies the esoteric/occult/paranormal, and by the magician part I mean someone who practices "magick"(Oh, how I detest that term. It's so trite, with or without the k at the end.) as in rituals, crystal/stone use, smudging, qabbalah, etc.
I use Christian Mystic to describe myself because a magic-user also falls under the mysticist description, but I placed magician next to it so people would understand I didn't just mean the study of, but the actual practice of as well. Instead I made myself more confusing, hee. :cross eye
 
Ah! my initial reaction was exactly the same as Lopaka's (now what are the odds against THAT huh? ;) ) and so I wonder if you should maybe look at the whole phrasing of the question? Mainly on the grounds of me still being baffled I have to confess....... :rofl:

There is a well defined and well known thing "Christian Mysticism". I'd include Hildegard of Bingen, Julian of Norwich Theresa of Avila as well as the others Lopa mentions. If that isn't what you mean then we need to find another word or folks will go chasing the wrong rabbit (sic).

Perhaps you could start by defining "christian"? In the particular sense you mean it here... We need to get that nailed as some flavours of christian will say that the two areas I understand you to mean are mutually exclusive.

Most christians I know use ritual of some sort - touching hands for the Peace, genuflecting, participating in the mass/communion/eucharist..... but I'm guessing this isn't what you mean?

For me a magician is a chap in shabby tails who brings doves out of hats at kid's parties :rolleyes:

Let me guess, wrong image huh? :)

Kath
 
stonedoggy said:
Ah! my initial reaction was exactly the same as Lopaka's (now what are the odds against THAT huh? ;) ) and so I wonder if you should maybe look at the whole phrasing of the question? Mainly on the grounds of me still being baffled I have to confess....... :rofl:

There is a well defined and well known thing "Christian Mysticism". I'd include Hildegard of Bingen, Julian of Norwich Theresa of Avila as well as the others Lopa mentions. If that isn't what you mean then we need to find another word or folks will go chasing the wrong rabbit (sic).

Perhaps you could start by defining "christian"? In the particular sense you mean it here... We need to get that nailed as some flavours of christian will say that the two areas I understand you to mean are mutually exclusive.

Most christians I know use ritual of some sort - touching hands for the Peace, genuflecting, participating in the mass/communion/eucharist..... but I'm guessing this isn't what you mean?

For me a magician is a chap in shabby tails who brings doves out of hats at kid's parties :rolleyes:

Let me guess, wrong image huh? :)

Kath
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Lord knows I wasn't trying to be this confusing. *giggle* I was trying to actually clarify myself by using the two terms together..

By Christian I simply mean a belief in Christ's existance/miracles/resurrection, as in a general belief in Christianity, no specific denomination, just the basics.

And by rituals, no, I didn't mean the common generally-thought-of-as-christian-already type, I meant more along the line of what your average neo-pagan does. Invocations, meditative stuff, use of talismans/objects/crystals, use of incense/candles/herbs, etc..

I loathe the term magician as well, but it is frequently used in the intended context and I could think of nothing better..aside from sorcerer/sorceress which sounds more than a bit pompous. ;) I seriously cannot think of a more plain term; I only wish I could. Basically I meant someone who practices "magic" as is defined under modern terms; psychic power used to alter reality or bring inner enlightenment.

You see, the point of my post is that most people who are actually practicing in mysticism are neo-pagan of some variety, whereas there are very little modern Christians who do "magic" or study it. Hence, the question asked initially and the notation that there seem to be very few people who adhere to the basic notion of Christ's existance and purpose that actually use "magic" alongside their belief.
 
I always assumed that the Christian version of 'magic/k' was prayer, since its the same thing just a different method?

Maybe that's why you can't find what you're looking for? You looking for something that happens in one culture/religion one way and expecting it to be the same in another also?

Then again, I could be completely wrong... :( :rolleyes:
 
Christian occultist?

GreenJeanz: I'm not sure you are going to find a simple label. You are indluging in pagan/occult practices which tend to be beyond the limits of what most Christian churches would consider acceptable mysticism (as all power essentially flows from God and there are various well understood manifestations of it) but as you appear to be non-denominational then I don't really see too much of a problem - although reconciling the two approaches would be 'interesting'. Any kind of label would tend to be bordering on an oxymoron - I assume you are still exploring various avenues of spirituality so either avoid labels altogether or wait until you settle on something that suits you (if you haven't already).
 
Many people of faith (broadest term implied) regard all ritual as adiaphora. :) Mind you, some people of faith regard all of it as adiaphoric and merely the outward visible sign of inward spiritual truth. Shrug.

Maybe you need to work out what you mean by "ritual" as well as "christian" and "magic"? It can be difficult to define terms but that is something this place does well. Or at least at great length and with enthusiasm.... If there isn't some agreed common ground it's easy to indulge in a warm fug of happy clappy new agey soppiness. Hello Starshine! Which is fine if it's what's wanted but likely to irritate the hell out of folks here :rofl:

You might also want to include in your analysis the notion that, while some activities are meaningless or harmless in themselves they are so closely associated with a different flavour of spirituality that their use would be abohorrent.

You won't find Glasgow Catholics singing hymns to the tunes that Glasgow Protestants use to march about to.... The bible exhorts me to kill birds everyso often but I can't see me doing it, any more than I can see our Minister co-operating if I dragged a bull calf through the door next Sunday...

Kath
 
Sounds a bit similar to simon magus's take on christianaty :(
Simon Magus


Simon Magus was a popular and powerful sorcerer in Samaria. Although he became very eager about Christianity after hearing the preaching of Philip the evangelist, Simon's interest was not actually a matter of true repentance and conversion. Simon viewed Christianity as though it were a means for his own personal benefit and exaltation, for which the apostle Peter rebuked him. The term "Simony," the buying and selling of positions of authority in the church (one of the major protests of Martin Luther, see Luther's 95 Theses) is named from Simon Magus.


Simon The Sorcerer


"Philip went down to a city of Samaria, and proclaimed to them the Christ. And the multitudes with one accord gave heed to what was said by Philip, when they heard him and saw the signs which he did. For unclean spirits came out of many who were possessed, crying with a loud voice; and many who were paralyzed or lame were healed. So there was much joy in that city."
"But there was a man named Simon who had previously practiced magic in the city and amazed the nation of Samaria, saying that he himself was somebody great. They all gave heed to him, from the least to the greatest, saying, "This man is that power of God which is called Great." And they gave heed to him, because for a long time he had amazed them with his magic. But when they believed Philip as he preached good news about the Kingdom of God and the Name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women. Even Simon himself believed, and after being baptized he continued with Philip. And seeing signs and great miracles performed, he was amazed."

"Now when the apostles at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent to them Peter and John, who came down and prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit; for it had not yet fallen on any of them, but they had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. Then they laid their hands on them and they received the Holy Spirit."

"Now when Simon saw that the Spirit was given through the laying on of the apostles' hands, he offered them money, saying, "Give me also this power, that any one on whom I lay my hands may receive the Holy Spirit."

"But Peter said to him, "Your silver perish with you, because you thought you could obtain the gift of God with money! You have neither part nor lot in this matter, for your heart is not right before God. Repent therefore of this wickedness of yours, and pray to the Lord that, if possible, the intent of your heart may be forgiven you. For I see that you are in the gall of bitterness and in the bond of iniquity." (Acts 8:5-23 RSV)

Who Was Simon Magus?


The Bible record of Simon Magus ends after the verses quoted above, however there are other direct references to him in existence, including that by Justin Martyr, a prominent Christian writer and historian who lived in the early second century, just after the close of the New Testament period. In his Apology, chapter 26 (a brief except is shown below), Justin wrote that Simon Magus went to Rome during the reign of Emperor Claudius where he, being the skilled deceiver that he was, corrupted and became the popular leader of a large portion of the Christians (many of whom had earlier been personally converted by the apostles, including Paul and Peter) in the city.

Among Simon Magus' teachings, which did not reject Christianity, but rather grossly perverted much of it to his own liking (despite what they were doing, those of Simon's church called themselves, and apparently sincerely believed themselves to be, Christians), was that their human leader was in place of God and promoted the use of statues for worship. According to Justin:


"There was a Samaritan, Simon, a native of the village called Gitto, who in the reign of Claudius Caesar, and in your royal city of Rome, did mighty acts of magic, by virtue of the art of the devils operating in him. He was considered a god, and as a god was honoured by you with a statue, which statue was erected on the river Tiber, between the two bridges, and bore this inscription, in the language of Rome."
"He persuaded those who adhered to him that they should never die, and even now there are some living who hold this opinion of his ... All who take their opinions from these men, as we before said, call themselves Christians."

http://www.keyway.ca/htm2001/20011114.htm
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Flash, can you expand and elucidate dear?

Apart from the presence of the Magus/magician/sorcerer motidf I'm not sure I get the connection....

and speak slowly and clearly, the ears are full of bubbles after my bath :D


Kath
 
Hello Greeners! :)

Don't be put off by this bunch of old cynics - it all belies their fluffiness.

Gonna post up some links to texts (classic stuff - nothing but the best) and I'll dig up something odd and Byzantine that came to mind when I saw your thread...but now, I'm for me bed ;)
 
I don't expect something to be the same culturally...I'm describing what I mean rather accurately I thought, I'm not sure exactly why I'm being so misunderstood.
I explained that what I meant was someone who in general believes in what Christ said/did and is therefore a Christian, but also does what is almost always referred to as magic(k) (But is better described as psychic work) and that is more commonly practiced by other religions. Hence the interesting nature of the belief and my wondering if anyone else here shared the same idea or knew people who do.

Emperor, I don't care at all what the modern Christian church thinks, no disrespect intended. ;) The church has stigmatized any form of worship that is not within their parameters, when origional, true Christianity was not like this. It is thought that Christ himself was a practitioner of the Jewish mystic art of Qabbalah, something that I am studying.

There is also an apparent misunderstanding in what I practice; all that I do uses the strength and power derived from God, as in the same source as any other good "magic" or psychic work. It is all done in God's name with the request of God's blessing.

Edit: Just saw the posts before this one....jeeeeeesh. I should just give up on this topic I think before I start being ridiculed. :sad: I am most certainly not a new age fluffball, I believe what I believe because it makes sense logically to me.
I haven't even truly gotten into what I think, so please don't judge me.
 
stonedoggy said:
Flash, can you expand and elucidate dear?

Apart from the presence of the Magus/magician/sorcerer motidf I'm not sure I get the connection....

and speak slowly and clearly, the ears are full of bubbles after my bath :D


Kath
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Simon Magus is thought by many christan scholours (perhaps on flimsy evidence) to have been the peson behind the cult of Gnostic christianity.

He was known as a practisioner of magic and came from someria (the somaritains were a jewish sect that practice magic and are also in all likely hood where the Qabbalah came from).
 
ta flash! :) you are an officer and a gentleman!

will return and re-read........

Kath
 
GreenJeanz-

I think you may have got the wrong end of the stick- no one is accusing you of being a "new age fluff ball", re-read the post before yours. :)

In fact I think Alexius was going to provide you some links that would be of interest.

This is a message board people will ask you to expand on ideas, posts, views.

I must admit what I thought Christian Mysticism dealt with is different to what you have mentioned i.e. I didn't realise that it dealt with magic(k) I was thinking more of The Cloud of Unknowing etc, but then again I haven't read that much on the subject so I am quite happy to see this discussion evolve.
 
Quixote said:
GreenJeanz-

I think you may have got the wrong end of the stick- no one is accusing you of being a "new age fluff ball", re-read the post before yours. :)

In fact I think Alexius was going to provide you some links that would be of interest.

This is a message board people will ask you to expand on ideas, posts, views.

I must admit what I thought Christian Mysticism dealt with is different to what you have mentioned i.e. I didn't realise that it dealt with magic(k) I was thinking more of The Cloud of Unknowing etc, but then again I haven't read that much on the subject so I am quite happy to see this discussion evolve.
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I missed the one of Alexius', durh. Being tired makes me very unobservant. :(

Many apologies and the links are more than welcome, Alexius.

Oh, I know, I wouldn't post if I didn't want to discuss, I just was afraid of being insulted and thought that I was about to get into that territory. I'm a bit sensitive right now, I've had a bad day and I'm so tired, eugh. :err:
 
Well... if you want to be insulted...

nah only joking ;)

It's an interesting subject discussion that you have started and like you already know, people's views and perceptions on any given subject will differ from time to time, at least here it doesn't descend into outright flaming. The mods keep the trolls at bay quite effectively.

Hope your day gets better mate. :)

Back to Christian Mysticism then.


edit- errant apostrophe, soz like...
 
I should think Christian "magic" was dominant in western esotericism until modern paganism sprang up to rival the legacy of the Renaissance neo-Platonists.

It's not that great a leap from the adventures of Dr Dee, the Magical Conclusions of Pico della Mirandolo and the Occulta Philosophia of Agrippa to the exploits of the Golden Dawn.
 
Until the seventeenth century most people operated within epistemes, models of knowledge, that we would regard as very mystical. If you look at medieaval and renaissance meidicine you will find doctors used ideas of sympathy and anology rather than causation. Christianity operated in the context and was naturally "mystical" because the Universe was thought to embody mystical concepts.
 
the only info i can give is this:-

pages 283-5 (under the heading of "mysticism") in the "the encyclopaedia of the occult" by lewis spence (isbn 1-85170-183-4)
 
Well, if you take the view that alchemy was really about the transformation of the soul, then mysticism is magic. Certainly, the trend for all things cabalistic or hermetic blurred the line considerably from the 15th to the 18th centuries.

Medieval Spiritual Writings at Fordham

includes Julian of Norwich, Thomas a'Kempis, and sundry other brick-a-brack.
 
Oh, and Byzantine oddness: Hesychasm.

A fusion of Orthodox quietism with Sufi/ Buddhist Lataif/Chakra meditation? Hoh! Suits you sir! ;)

Overview

Originated on Mount Athos, swept the Empire during the early 14th century, and was adopted as Orthodox at the Council of St. Sophia in 1341. It is still practised.

The combination of invocation, posture, visualisation and breathing is also reminiscent of the Golden Dawn; the Middle Pillar comes to mind.

Enjoy :)
 
Alexius, thank you for the link to the Hesychasm material, it's very interesting!
 
St. Isaac the Syrian in the Sebastian Brock translation of Homily 64
True wisdom is gazing at God. Gazing at God is silence of the thoughts. Stillness of mind is tranquillity which comes from discernment.

No probs...it's great stuff to peruse, and fascinating to see Eastern Christianity at play.
 
Finally got back here!

As a number of people have noted, this is a sort of no-man's (sic) land subject in most of the contemporary US. Most self-identified Christians (especially Protestants, I'd imagine) would look askance at someone who was practising magic(k) and most pagans get really uncomfortable when someone starts talking about Jesus. Though I go to a Christian Church and also have any number of friends who do the kind of rituals you mention, I can't offhand think of anyone I know personally I could ask about this.

If relatively orthodox (I don't mean Eastern Church) Christian individuals are doing it in your area I'd imagine it's done very secretively, perhaps as an offshoot of a liberal Roman Catholic women's group.

The Unity Church also seems like a place that lives comfortably among a number of spiritual tradtions, maybe someone at a local congregation could advise.

Lastly, I did come across The Light of Christ Community Church in Oklahoma. http://sanctasophia.org which espouses what they describe as Esoteric Christianity, which sounds somewhat akin to what you're asking about.

Sorry I can't be of more help. I'll keep my eyes/ears open. Very interesting subject. :)
 
That said a great number of magical orders, past and present, have been predominantly Judeo-Christian. The GD, of course, as well as spin offs like the Servents of the Light, who perpetuate the teachings of Dion Fortune.

The whole Rosicrucian stream of tradition is also Christian in character, although non-Christian offshoots have developed.

There is a long history of magical Christianity (as well as the mystical variety), and those traditions are still active. But as Lopaka says, it lies outside the bounds of what is considered orthodox in many parts of the world.

Not that that has ever stopped anybody ;)
 
Lopaka; Thank you for getting back to me on this subject! I imagine no-one else is doing it in this area; mostly fundies around here. :cross eye
My own family has no clue that I do this, although they know I study the paranormal. They won't be happy about it when they do find out, ha. Alas, they are ignorant on the subject.

Austen, thanks for the link! It was a good read and brings up something I should explain, which is why I have such disdain for most modern christian groups and churches;
Too many denominations and followers accept everything in the bible at face-value, with no consideration of the historical context. Questioning the bible does not mean there is a lack of respect for it, but in fact often means the opposite. If one has enough interest and affection for something as to study it and try to understand it better then it seems to me to be a compliment and not an insult. Christ himself was a rebel of the religious authority at the time and debated with rabbis/priests in the temple as a young man.
As is demonstrated in the astrology article, many things are not taken correctly even in a literal way, such as the Babylonian prophecy.
 
GreenJeanz said:
Austen, thanks for the link! It was a good read and brings up something I should explain, which is why I have such disdain for most modern christian groups and churches;
Too many denominations and followers accept everything in the bible at face-value, with no consideration of the historical context.
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This is an issue that turns up a lot on this board. As a (Methodist) Christian, I find the teachings of the evangelical churches rather worrying. I feel closest to the Anglicans.
 
At the now infamous Sacred Texts link, there are the Sibylline Oracles, which are remains of ancient texts that feature some early Gnostic thinking as well as pagan and historical sources.

The original Sibylline Books were closely-guarded oracular scrolls written by prophetic priestesses (the Sibylls) in the Etruscan and early Roman Era as far back as the 6th Century B.C.E. These books were destroyed, partially in a fire in 83 B.C.E., and finally burned by order of the Roman General Flavius Stilicho (365-408 C.E.).

There is very little knowledge of the actual contents of the original Sibylline Books. The texts which are presented here are forgeries, probably composed between the second to sixth century C.E. They purport to predict events which were already history or mythological history at the time of composition, as well as vague all-purpose predictions, especially woe for various cities and countries such as Rome and Assyria. They are an odd pastiche of Hellenistic and Roman Pagan mythology, including Homer and Hesiod; Jewish legends such as the Garden of Eden, Noah and the Tower of Babel; thinly veiled references to historical figures such as Alexander the Great and Cleopatra, as well as a long list of Roman Emperors; and last but not least, Gnostic and early Christian homilies and eschatological writings, all in no particular order. There may be actual residue of the original Sibylline books wedged in here and there, but this is dubious.

As prophecy, the Pseudo-Sibyllines never rise to the level of Nostradamus. However they are a gold mine for students of Classical mythology and early first millenium Jewish, Gnostic and Christian beliefs. Notable are apocalyptic passages scattered throughout which at times seem like a first draft of the Biblical Book of Revelation. The Pseudo-Sibyllines were referenced by the early Church fathers and in one instance have a Christian code-phrase in successive first letters on each line (an 'acrostic'). These books, in spite of their Pagan content, have been described as part of the Apocrypha, although they do not appear on any of the canonical lists.

A few other links that may be worth checking out:

Christian Mysticism

The Mystic Christian Reader

Dead Sea Scrolls
 
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