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Lady Liberty tends to vanish with gunfire and Lady Justice has always had an eye for a man in uniform...
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Meep! :eek!!!!:
Be afraid, be very afraid.
"Every law that curbs my basic human freedoms; every lie about the things I care for; every crime committed against me by their politics-- That's what makes me get up and hound these fuckers, and I'll do that until the day I die, or until my brain dries up or something." - Spider Jerusalem
Niles "Too Shocked to be Angry" Calder
Be afraid, be very afraid.
"Every law that curbs my basic human freedoms; every lie about the things I care for; every crime committed against me by their politics-- That's what makes me get up and hound these fuckers, and I'll do that until the day I die, or until my brain dries up or something." - Spider Jerusalem
Niles "Too Shocked to be Angry" Calder
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Anonymous
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Can't say I'm surprised.
That quote would have been great Niles, if it had stopped at the "die" part.
That quote would have been great Niles, if it had stopped at the "die" part.
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Interesting to note, that with the exception of our Danish friend, all the comments have come from UK based posters...
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I agree Niles, this is really scary. I wonder how publicised this event was in mainstream news in America?
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M,
Forllowing a brief news search, not very.
The US media seem reluctant to mention much that is seriously critical of the current administration, since its 'not in keeping with the National sentiment' As an observation, since when has THAT been a function of the press?
and yet ANOTHER UK poster coments
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Forllowing a brief news search, not very.
The US media seem reluctant to mention much that is seriously critical of the current administration, since its 'not in keeping with the National sentiment' As an observation, since when has THAT been a function of the press?
and yet ANOTHER UK poster coments
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Bashing again.
Here we go again. Thank God the UK can hold her torch of truth so high as to illuminate the US' hopeless folly. I can only grovel in thanks.
Maybe the reason there hasn't been any American posts is because y'all get out of bed 5 hours earlier than us! This thread started 3 hours before I got up!
Now.
This is idiotic, and sad. And scary. When Ashcroft appeared before the Senate and hijacked the wording of the Constitution: (paraphrasing) "Those who disagree with the actions of the Administration are giving comfort and aid to the enemy" I was appalled. That's the the language the Constitution uses to characterize a traitor! I thought peaceful dissent was the American way! Jefferson said (I think) that the only way the democracy was to be kept pure was the occassional revolution. And here's some schmoe getting his chops busted over asking directions! Holy shit!
What's most terrifying about this (although I'm not a conspiracist and happen to love my country) is how 911 was perfect for the Bush administration. I mean, the energy policy was hogwash, Enron was imminent, the "tax break" was a sham and a dodge for the wealthy, their foreign policy (sic) was blowing up in their face...I could go on. Then the unthinkable happens.
All of a sudden (and understandably) the nation rallied around their president. Energy policy was forgotten. Fairly draconian (and Constitutionally questionable) behavior was condoned. The Dems won't say boo about it for fear of looking unpatriotic. The most benign protest and dissent is quashed. The nation is gripped in fear--it's always worked for the news media--and willing to toe the line.
I actually believe in my heart that, as far as our response to terrorism goes, Bush is trying to do the right thing. I also believe the road to hell is paved with good intentions! The rosy glow of initial international concensus-building is dimming to the old gray orthodoxy of unilateralism. There's not much doubt in my mind that Dubya is also in the pocket of big business--energy especially--and is seconded by that only by the Democrats. In a hideous and perverse way, he has benefitted from this horror.
Now, start taking up a collection to bail me out of jail and hire a crackerjack 1st Amendment defense team.
Here we go again. Thank God the UK can hold her torch of truth so high as to illuminate the US' hopeless folly. I can only grovel in thanks.
Maybe the reason there hasn't been any American posts is because y'all get out of bed 5 hours earlier than us! This thread started 3 hours before I got up!
Now.
This is idiotic, and sad. And scary. When Ashcroft appeared before the Senate and hijacked the wording of the Constitution: (paraphrasing) "Those who disagree with the actions of the Administration are giving comfort and aid to the enemy" I was appalled. That's the the language the Constitution uses to characterize a traitor! I thought peaceful dissent was the American way! Jefferson said (I think) that the only way the democracy was to be kept pure was the occassional revolution. And here's some schmoe getting his chops busted over asking directions! Holy shit!
What's most terrifying about this (although I'm not a conspiracist and happen to love my country) is how 911 was perfect for the Bush administration. I mean, the energy policy was hogwash, Enron was imminent, the "tax break" was a sham and a dodge for the wealthy, their foreign policy (sic) was blowing up in their face...I could go on. Then the unthinkable happens.
All of a sudden (and understandably) the nation rallied around their president. Energy policy was forgotten. Fairly draconian (and Constitutionally questionable) behavior was condoned. The Dems won't say boo about it for fear of looking unpatriotic. The most benign protest and dissent is quashed. The nation is gripped in fear--it's always worked for the news media--and willing to toe the line.
I actually believe in my heart that, as far as our response to terrorism goes, Bush is trying to do the right thing. I also believe the road to hell is paved with good intentions! The rosy glow of initial international concensus-building is dimming to the old gray orthodoxy of unilateralism. There's not much doubt in my mind that Dubya is also in the pocket of big business--energy especially--and is seconded by that only by the Democrats. In a hideous and perverse way, he has benefitted from this horror.
Now, start taking up a collection to bail me out of jail and hire a crackerjack 1st Amendment defense team.
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Re: Bashing again.
That's what I thought.
[snippage of good quality stuff, readable above]
I'm sure you're not the only one uncomfortable with the Cui Bono results of 911, Minor Drag.
I recently realised that the primary reason we got a War after the worldshaking events of that day was that it helped maintain the status quo. Otherwise the powers that be might have actually had their rule threatened by a new set of memes sweeping us into a more benign global do-dad.
Niles "wondering at WulfLoki's response is going to be" Calder
Egads! Sarcasm from a Yank!Minor Drag said:
That's what I thought.
[snippage of good quality stuff, readable above]
I'm sure you're not the only one uncomfortable with the Cui Bono results of 911, Minor Drag.
I recently realised that the primary reason we got a War after the worldshaking events of that day was that it helped maintain the status quo. Otherwise the powers that be might have actually had their rule threatened by a new set of memes sweeping us into a more benign global do-dad.
Niles "wondering at WulfLoki's response is going to be" Calder
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MD,
A lot of valid points, which I agree with, although I do question the point of an adoring press in a free society, although having said that, the culture shock of 911 can only be measured against the shock Japan got when they dropped the bomb (and before I am jumped on, I am talking about socialogical shock not the rightness or wrongness of an action)
One picky comment... since it was posted on the 18th youve been in bed 2 days?
One other thing... I for one was not sniping at GWB's response, or saying anything about the American people, simply sniping at self censorship where it is not needed. Now more than ever, on both sides of the Atlantic, we need open free press which is not afraid to criticise, or expose where it is needed, not some painted, self seving whore that panders to the man with the most power, and feeds which ever population sanitised sound bites that don't distract too much from the word from the sponsor before the weather report! In that sentiment, I feel we are probably loudly and acrimoniously, agreeing
A lot of valid points, which I agree with, although I do question the point of an adoring press in a free society, although having said that, the culture shock of 911 can only be measured against the shock Japan got when they dropped the bomb (and before I am jumped on, I am talking about socialogical shock not the rightness or wrongness of an action)
One picky comment... since it was posted on the 18th youve been in bed 2 days?
One other thing... I for one was not sniping at GWB's response, or saying anything about the American people, simply sniping at self censorship where it is not needed. Now more than ever, on both sides of the Atlantic, we need open free press which is not afraid to criticise, or expose where it is needed, not some painted, self seving whore that panders to the man with the most power, and feeds which ever population sanitised sound bites that don't distract too much from the word from the sponsor before the weather report! In that sentiment, I feel we are probably loudly and acrimoniously, agreeing
Re: Re: Bashing again.
Niles, perhaps I'm reading this wrong, but I fail to see how 911 had the potential of leading us into a more benign state. Nor do I see how it didn't demand a response--we lost half that number of people in Pearl Harbor, and quickly laced up our ass-kickin' boots. What are the "memes" to which you're referring? Perverse Islamic fundamentalism? The much deserved "come-uppance" of the States? Useless, evil slaughter?
Ultimately, the last way to effect useful change was to commit such a heinous act. As for the status quo, power seeks only to maintain and increase itself.
What's so miserable about this is that we've killed as many Afghan civilians as we lost in the WTC attack. Don't hear too much about it.
Niles Calder said:
Niles, perhaps I'm reading this wrong, but I fail to see how 911 had the potential of leading us into a more benign state. Nor do I see how it didn't demand a response--we lost half that number of people in Pearl Harbor, and quickly laced up our ass-kickin' boots. What are the "memes" to which you're referring? Perverse Islamic fundamentalism? The much deserved "come-uppance" of the States? Useless, evil slaughter?
Ultimately, the last way to effect useful change was to commit such a heinous act. As for the status quo, power seeks only to maintain and increase itself.
What's so miserable about this is that we've killed as many Afghan civilians as we lost in the WTC attack. Don't hear too much about it.
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Anonymous
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I just have a question. When Bush ran for president wasn't he supported by weapons manufacturers? And don't they want something back? And wouldn't a war be a good way of doing that?
Sorry, harlequin, I didn't see this thread at all in the last two days. Maybe it was being masked by the newest Black Project!
Xanatic has a point, and reminded me of another thing I forgot to post on my list of shame above--the highest defense spending in 20 years!
As I've said before, any reasonable person will tell you that you don't make something without intending to use it. I'm all for a good defense, but let's face it--since WWII we haven't done much but cause a lot of problems overseas. See, I can say that 'cause I'm a Yank. If y'all said it I'd kick yer ass!
We have all known people who could only think with their fists. God help you if they end up running your country. Wait--they have! I'm buying the first round!
Xanatic has a point, and reminded me of another thing I forgot to post on my list of shame above--the highest defense spending in 20 years!
As I've said before, any reasonable person will tell you that you don't make something without intending to use it. I'm all for a good defense, but let's face it--since WWII we haven't done much but cause a lot of problems overseas. See, I can say that 'cause I'm a Yank. If y'all said it I'd kick yer ass!
We have all known people who could only think with their fists. God help you if they end up running your country. Wait--they have! I'm buying the first round!
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Re: Bashing again.
Something that many Americans seem to forget was that although the 911 attacks took place on American soil, they were actually attacks against every nation who had citizens within the WTC at the time. Of course many of your country folk seem to think that the US is the world.
Unless I'm very much mistaken wasn't the attack on Pearl Harbour directed mainly at the US Naval forces stationed there? An attack on a miltary target is an act of war; an attack on a civiliab target an act of terror.
World Peace, Global Unity (but not nessicarilly government), that sort of think. Call me an idealist but I want a better world rather than this shithole we currently have. Oh and since when has slaughter not been evil and useless?
Exactly. But such an act can have effects that the instigator did not intend. Unless UBL intended to get his organisation and allies trounced...
I hear you and I agree... I think I said ages back that the US psyche seemed to see the conflict as a zero sum. I hate to be proven right!
Niles "" Calder
The sense I got in the days following the attack was one of global horror. An attitude that this should NEVER happen again. When the a vast majority of people across the world are united towards a single goal anything is possible. If T.W.A.T had been enacted by the UN rather than US then perhaps that unity could have been maintained, but the US had a stake in prosecuting the conflict directly.Minor Drag said:
Something that many Americans seem to forget was that although the 911 attacks took place on American soil, they were actually attacks against every nation who had citizens within the WTC at the time. Of course many of your country folk seem to think that the US is the world.
Unless I'm very much mistaken wasn't the attack on Pearl Harbour directed mainly at the US Naval forces stationed there? An attack on a miltary target is an act of war; an attack on a civiliab target an act of terror.
World Peace, Global Unity (but not nessicarilly government), that sort of think. Call me an idealist but I want a better world rather than this shithole we currently have. Oh and since when has slaughter not been evil and useless?
Exactly. But such an act can have effects that the instigator did not intend. Unless UBL intended to get his organisation and allies trounced...
I hear you and I agree... I think I said ages back that the US psyche seemed to see the conflict as a zero sum. I hate to be proven right!
Niles "
" Calder
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MD, in all likelyhood Mines a pint of old and nasty.
As a comment on the defence spending, I think its now apparent it was the *wrong* type of defence. More money should have been given into FBI/CIA rather than bigger and better methods of mass destruction. Its a similar problem in the UK. Unfortunately, given the big budgets, the various spook shows forget who they work for, although that seems true of most governments...
Again, Europe has no moral high ground for that, although the netherlands is number 4 on the internaional corruption scale (pretty low)
Mines a pint of old and nasty. As a comment on the defence spending, I think its now apparent it was the *wrong* type of defence. More money should have been given into FBI/CIA rather than bigger and better methods of mass destruction. Its a similar problem in the UK. Unfortunately, given the big budgets, the various spook shows forget who they work for, although that seems true of most governments...
Again, Europe has no moral high ground for that, although the netherlands is number 4 on the internaional corruption scale (pretty low)
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Anonymous
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Minor Drag said:
Here's an interesting point I heard on (I think) the Johnathon Dimbleby show.
"The only difference between the innocent that died in Afghanastan and the innocent that died on September 11th is that the Afghans didn't have any mobile phones to leave messages on their loved ones answering machines."
As for the deffence budget, It annoys me to see that they're spending it on expensive, outmoded cold war hardware.
Re: Re: Bashing again.
Oh dear. Niles, I said I'd buy you a drink! I've noticed a lot lately that Americans as a people are confused for the rhetoric of their government--the very sin we are accused of committing throughout the world! I have never forgotton those of other nationalities who perished in the attack.
Niles Calder said:
Oh dear. Niles, I said I'd buy you a drink! I've noticed a lot lately that Americans as a people are confused for the rhetoric of their government--the very sin we are accused of committing throughout the world! I have never forgotton those of other nationalities who perished in the attack.
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Minor Drag, as an American, have you found that there is very little out-spoken opposition to the current US government policy and thinking? Are people really as over-whelmingly behind Bush as we read - or is it just media hype?
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Anonymous
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One of the reasons why I am tired of hearing about september 11 is their picky definition of the world.
When they attacked America it was an attack upon the whole world and democracy in general according to Americans.
In other terror actions that have happened to other countries, it has simply been seen as "something that didn't happen to America". Why is an attack on America is an attack on the whole free world, while an attack on another country is just "too bad".
When they attacked America it was an attack upon the whole world and democracy in general according to Americans.
In other terror actions that have happened to other countries, it has simply been seen as "something that didn't happen to America". Why is an attack on America is an attack on the whole free world, while an attack on another country is just "too bad".
I do, Meanderer.
Immediately after the attack and our initial speechless horror, we came together as a nation in a way I haven't seen in my lifetime, and that my parents only dimly remember. I supported Bush as our leader despite his many faults. Most of us did. Several people spoke out for peace, but--let's face it--they didn't have a chance. The vast majority of the country was seeing red.
And, although we are still united (out of patriotism and fear), the cracks are beginning to show in terms of how much people back Bush no-questions-asked. The populace has wanted campaign finance reform, for example, for a dozen years, but that didn't come about until the Enron disaster.
Of course it's media hype! Look at the actions of the British government during the first world war! Or any government during any war! Suppression of dissent, a unified front, etc. We all know the drill.
Immediately after the attack and our initial speechless horror, we came together as a nation in a way I haven't seen in my lifetime, and that my parents only dimly remember. I supported Bush as our leader despite his many faults. Most of us did. Several people spoke out for peace, but--let's face it--they didn't have a chance. The vast majority of the country was seeing red.
And, although we are still united (out of patriotism and fear), the cracks are beginning to show in terms of how much people back Bush no-questions-asked. The populace has wanted campaign finance reform, for example, for a dozen years, but that didn't come about until the Enron disaster.
Of course it's media hype! Look at the actions of the British government during the first world war! Or any government during any war! Suppression of dissent, a unified front, etc. We all know the drill.
Xanatic said:
Xanatic, probably for the same reasons that everyone laughs at another's misfortunes and weeps for their own. Also because, as Niles correctly pointed out, people of many free nations died in the attack. We, sadly, were the "host."
God forbid, wait until it happens to you.