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Derren Brown: Master Mind-Manipulator

rynner: Now that would be the ultimate misdirection!!

Perhaps he is really out to uncover all these charlatans before revealing his true powers and becoming our...... Messiah

Oh bugger............

:twisted: :monster: :madeyes: :evil:
 
I think the "Instant conversion" was most impressive but I notice one person remained standing and appeared unmoved it seemed - I wonder why.


As Emp says with the Medium contact, most likely simple research finds the specific and cold reading techniques reinforce anything else.
I read on another board that one of the well known TV mediums - Van Praag -I think - held the audience for several hours before the show, which of course is very heavily edited, In the Green room . There are mics everywhere and either bored or emotional, people talk about why they are there, who they want to "contact" and characteristics, anecdotes, remininscences are drawn out. Someone mops them up.
 
I've seen Derren do similar things to the cold reading before.
He asked Jonathon Ross to think of a word, it could be any word, a name a place, item of furniture anything. Ross just had to repeat the word over to himself in his mind. He got the word right. He started with one or two letters but he got it right.
He is a very clever man and no doubt.
 
liveinabin said:
I've seen Derren do similar things to the cold reading before.
He asked Jonathon Ross to think of a word, it could be any word, a name a place, item of furniture anything. Ross just had to repeat the word over to himself in his mind. He got the word right. He started with one or two letters but he got it right.
He is a very clever man and no doubt.
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Yeah I wonder about that one and I've been meaning to try it out on some people. Its probably not cold reading per se but I suspect there are a couple fo ways:

1. When people say it over in their mind ther face and throat respond in subtle ways and he can read that - try thinking of say a B and you might purse your lips just a little. With some knowledge of the way we speak it should be possibly to narrow it down rapidly and then gauge people's reactions.

2. There may be a rather limited set of words people come up with which might work by itself or in conjnction with one.

2 is certainly how he did his remote viewing trick. When asked to draw a quick simple shape there is a very limited set people pick from and that woman ran through most of them - I saw Uri Geller do something similar on Richard and Judy (although he was probably also using the movements of the end of the pend to guess) e.g.: Flower/tree, boat, stick figure, house, banana/crescent, etc. and he was talking to her all the time influencing her picks. There was probably stuff missing but before the baot one he said "don't go overboard" ;)
 
Quickly , before she gets wind of it and removes it , here's the webpage for the Dream Machine and endorsement from Esoteric World News owner, Lorraine DiFelice


http://www.sincitywebhosting.com/esoter ... achine.htm
Dream Machine

by

Robert Frawley

...Amazing...Innovative...Awesome...Fantastic...
Mind-Blowing...Futuristic...Accurate...


An un-asked-for testimonial:
"I was honored and privileged to have been chosen to test the first prototype of Mr. Frawley's Dream Machine. My dreams were recorded over a five-day period and Mr. Frawley then described my dreams to me in more detail than I had written in my Dream Journal, which he had not seen prior to describing my dreams in full detail."
--Lorraine DiFelice


More about the Dream Machine as soon as Genius Developer,
Robert Frawley, allows us to write about it here.
Click to expand...
 
Emperor said:
There was probably stuff missing but before the baot one he said "don't go overboard" ;)
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I also noted him saying "let your mind float" to the woman before she drew the picture that ended up being the ship in waves.

It was interesting that the only error was when he said it would be a cross but the woman drew a Star of David. I think this gives us an inight into what he does (and certainly would alert anyone even slightly sceptical that he is not remote viewing).

My suspicion from this error is that he has provided her with "suggestion" to draw a religious symbol (probably she was hpnotised beforehand without knowing it). Most white western people would automatically draw a cross in response to such a suggestion. This woman drew a Star of David - perhaps she has a Jewish ancestry. Anyway, it shows that he was not "seeing" what she was drawing - (the cross is not physically similar to the Star of David) just had knowledge of the subject that would promote the drawing. At this point, anyone critical would have to conclude that he was not remote viewing in any conventional sense. However, these "psychics" could not see past the high level of hits that Derren was able to attain.
 
i had a friend who read how he does some of this stuff. the simplistic version of it that he plants certain keywords into his sentances which help to influencethe other persons subconscious.

it reminds me of a trick i've seen my little cousin did were she asks you a load of meaningless questions then asks you to name a vegitable - apparently the majority of us will think of a carrot.
 
Found the "religious conversion" section interesting - anyone notice how for the whole "falling down" conversions he made pretty sure they were standing with their feet together as though to physically unbalance them by giving them less of a firm base to begin with? I also found it interesting that the caption noted that all the convertees had been "de-converted" afterwards - was it him just telling them it was a load of bollocks or did it involve some kind of deeper de-programming?
BTW does anyone know if the seance special's in danger of being repeated? Missed it first time round, although I did see the one he did live. Excellent.
 
what is that falling down without touching someone thing? anyone know? is it through suggestion or is it supposed to be some esotoric energy thing?

that guy on that 'mind, body and kick ass moves' martial arts thing is for ever doing it from people of the street. my flat mate doesn't think it's real.
 
Bilderberger said:
Emperor said:
There was probably stuff missing but before the baot one he said "don't go overboard" ;)
Click to expand...

I also noted him saying "let your mind float" to the woman before she drew the picture that ended up being the ship in waves.

It was interesting that the only error was when he said it would be a cross but the woman drew a Star of David. I think this gives us an inight into what he does (and certainly would alert anyone even slightly sceptical that he is not remote viewing).

My suspicion from this error is that he has provided her with "suggestion" to draw a religious symbol (probably she was hpnotised beforehand without knowing it). Most white western people would automatically draw a cross in response to such a suggestion. This woman drew a Star of David - perhaps she has a Jewish ancestry. Anyway, it shows that he was not "seeing" what she was drawing - (the cross is not physically similar to the Star of David) just had knowledge of the subject that would promote the drawing. At this point, anyone critical would have to conclude that he was not remote viewing in any conventional sense. However, these "psychics" could not see past the high level of hits that Derren was able to attain.
Click to expand...

Whilst watching the remote viwing excercise I was listening very carefully to what he was saying to the woman drawing the pictures. Just before she drew the I think 3rd picture he clearly asked her not to go OVERBOARD with the drawing. The first thing that popped into my mind was a boat. What did she draw for the 3rd picture - exactly, a boat. I am going to watch again and listen to how he could have suggested the other pictures.

Overall a very enjoyable show. And yes - this should be compulsary viewing in schools...

Regards

MF
 
FYI Derren Browns Seance is to be repeated on Friday the 4th of Feb at 11:00 ish on channel 4. I've put a note on tv and radio reminders but I never look there so I've put one here also.
 
Emperor said:
1. When people say it over in their mind ther face and throat respond in subtle ways and he can read that - try thinking of say a B and you might purse your lips just a little. With some knowledge of the way we speak it should be possibly to narrow it down rapidly and then gauge people's reactions.
Click to expand...

However, Jonathan Ross's word was Greenwich, and one of the first things Derren said was "it has a 'w' in it". The 'w' in Greenwich isn't pronounced, so there would be no lip pursing for it. Futhermore, the muscle movements are so slight that even when you connect electrodes up to the throat muscles, it is very hard to tell what someone is trying to say (this was a method thought up to create an artifical voicebox).

Emperor said:
2 is certainly how he did his remote viewing trick. When asked to draw a quick simple shape there is a very limited set people pick from and that woman ran through most of them - I saw Uri Geller do something similar on Richard and Judy (although he was probably also using the movements of the end of the pend to guess) e.g.: Flower/tree, boat, stick figure, house, banana/crescent, etc. and he was talking to her all the time influencing her picks. There was probably stuff missing but before the boat one he said "don't go overboard" ;)
Click to expand...

Really? After such an excellent description of hot reading on the previous page, why do you think he's returned to genuine psychology and suggestion for this? Derren hasn't really moved that far away from his magician background...
I'll shut up now, it's not really fair to spoil Derren's fun.

P.S. Escargot, I'm going to see him on Tuesday!
 
Samsa said:
Emperor said:
1. When people say it over in their mind ther face and throat respond in subtle ways and he can read that - try thinking of say a B and you might purse your lips just a little. With some knowledge of the way we speak it should be possibly to narrow it down rapidly and then gauge people's reactions.
Click to expand...

However, Jonathan Ross's word was Greenwich, and one of the first things Derren said was "it has a 'w' in it". The 'w' in Greenwich isn't pronounced, so there would be no lip pursing for it. Futhermore, the muscle movements are so slight that even when you connect electrodes up to the throat muscles, it is very hard to tell what someone is trying to say (this was a method thought up to create an artifical voicebox).
Click to expand...

As I say it one suggestion as I don't know how he does it as he has an arsenal of tricks up his sleeve (from various areas). Its not beyond reason that he asked his show biz chum to tell him what he was going to say ;) Possibly not covertly but he may have had a chat with him before filming and suggested it or something.

Samsa said:
Emperor said:
2 is certainly how he did his remote viewing trick. When asked to draw a quick simple shape there is a very limited set people pick from and that woman ran through most of them - I saw Uri Geller do something similar on Richard and Judy (although he was probably also using the movements of the end of the pend to guess) e.g.: Flower/tree, boat, stick figure, house, banana/crescent, etc. and he was talking to her all the time influencing her picks. There was probably stuff missing but before the boat one he said "don't go overboard" ;)
Click to expand...

Really? After such an excellent description of hot reading on the previous page, why do you think he's returned to genuine psychology and suggestion for this? Derren hasn't really moved that far away from his magician background...
Click to expand...

I'm sure he has always used a variety of tricks (under the guise of it all being purely psychological) including psychology, magician's standard tricks and what could all fall under the banner of "cheating" (researchers, stooges and other naughty trickery ;) ). I can't guarantee that there weren't cameras in the room with the woman and an assisstant director wasn't feeding him the info through an earpiece and the clips of his using suggestions were dropped in to mislead us in the audience.

Thats part of the fun because its often not clear what he is using to do the tricks as the psychological approach is often used as misdirection but I also assume he does deploy such tricks in a double bluff style :spinning
 
Yes, that's a very good summary, what really matters is that he makes us think about what he does more than most magicians. Just because he isn't entirely straight forward about his method doesn't mean it couldn't be done to a less impressive degree (Kenton Kepler has done a lot of work on suggestion, but i haven't read much of his stuff myself).
Derren's written two books about it (for magicians only, shhh) which are great for anyone interested in the methods used by fake psychics and uri gellars. They don't give everything away of course, but are a great starting point for you to think about trickery.
Having said that, of course it's not all trickery ;)
 
Samsa said:
Having said that, of course it's not all trickery ;)
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One of most disappointing things for me about Houdini was reading a book on him The Secrets of Houdini by John Clucas Cannell which brought home to me that whilst he was an exceptionally agile individual much of his 'magical' escapes were out and out cheats, fake handcuffs, pre-arranged keys, dupes in the audience etc.

The same is clearly true with Brown, he double bluffs with talk about Psychology and suggestion and is not above out and out cheating. As ever of course the interesting thing is guessing how he cheated.
 
He's coming to Ipswich in May. No-one I know wants to come with me. Anyone fancy it?
 
Yes, Derren cheats a lot, i wasn't denying that. He is however a good hypnotist...and a excellent liar. All forms of psychology ;)
I understand your Houdini point too, but at least some good came out of it - he was able to use his knowledge of escapism to uncover cheating psychics (e.g. Margery Crandon), just like you can use knowledge of Derren Brown's methods to evaluate alleged psychic phenomena.
However, i don't think Derren Brown uses stooges, all of his tricks can be explained using other methods, and the only thing he explictly states is that he does not use actors or stooges. If this were too be proven true though, i feel i would have a Houdini moment :(
 
Samsa said:
i feel i would have a Houdini moment :(
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The feeling of having been punched hard in the stomach when not expecting it? Yep know that one ;)
 
Derren Brown was seen manipulating the hairspray today in our local Boots store. Not sure what brand though.
 
I went to see him on Saturday night. The show was good but not as good as last year. the encore redeemed it as otherwise it would have justbeen okay.

Oh and we saw him in the curry house afterwards. Went and told him we enjoyed the show and shook his hand but was careful and didn't look into his eyes, you know, just in case. ;)
 
Derren Brown Live

First off, apologies if this is in the wrong place or has been started somewhere else!

I went to see Brown's new live show in Belfast last night, and blimmin' hell!

Can't say too much, as I do not want to spoil it for those who haven't yet been, but it was an astonishing night. Some really freaky stuff happening in places, with the final 'big trick' still resulting in my head spinning this morning with 'does not compute' type messages everytime I try and figure it out.

Most of it is new stuff, with only one (possibly two) of the tricks I remember him doing on TV, and a few he certainly never will.

Anybody else seen this tour?
 
First show of the enw series was on tonight (and is believe on C4 on Friday:

22:30 Derren Brown: Trick of the Mind

New series from the master of mind control. Simon Pegg is this week's astounded celebrity guest left questioning whether his mind is his own.
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And he really is the spawn of Satan. Although it was clear what he was doing to Simon Pegg it was cool that he broke it all down at the end - very freaky stuff!!*

All glory to the hypnotoad!!

* of course it is probably all part of his misdirection for the other tricks he did in that episode but all to the good ;)
 
caught the first one, the BMX thing seemed a little blatant after he revealed the gift, but that seeing with his fingers was seriously wierd and clever,
 
I nearly didn't bother to watch - it clashed with a new HIGNFY! - but bestirred myself enough to set the video...

And I was well impressed.

I expected I'd have a 'Yeah, seen that before, boring... ' response, but I didn't. It was fascinating stuff!

(That said, the sceptical me would like to know how many times he had to pay out £100 which they didn't show.)

But the 'fingertip reading' stuff was pretty strange....
 
I picked up the BMX thing while he was doing it, before he came clean. Not a clue about the resr though. Fascinating how he reduced that scary looking fella to what looked like terror, just by staring. And - the money in peoples purses? How?
 
The money in wallets and purses was clever. I have a vague notion of how much is in my purse (about £15) but for him to get it down to pennies was clever indeed. As we know most of what he does hinges on the person silently repeating the number or word to themselves.
 
liveinabin said:
The money in wallets and purses was clever. I have a vague notion of how much is in my purse (about £15) but for him to get it down to pennies was clever indeed. As we know most of what he does hinges on the person silently repeating the number or word to themselves.
Click to expand...

I dunno - the way it is done the people themselves don't know how much is in there. I suspect the trick is cruder than that - its not really anything psychological its pure street magic. There are probably a number of ways of doing it - the simplest is like rynner suggests: You pay out a lot of £100 and then edit it down. I'm sure he could make an educated guess to reduce the number of times he has to pay out but it is probably still cheap TV ;)

There are probably as many ways as you could think of. One I just thought of is that you mike people up for the trick put the guy doing the work is also a skilled prestidigitator and they rummage around in your clothing pass your wallet off to someone else who quickly scans through the cash and comes up with a guestimate (or they could mess you around a bit with some fault wires an get a complete count).
 
the small change

I haven't managed to catch any of the new series yet BUT...

Who actually opens the wallet and counts the money?

If it's not the owner then... as Emps suggested above, most people have little idea how much change they have in their wallets/purses. Simply switching the change that's in there already with (say) 63p would be a simple matter... it's the POUNDS that would be difficult. Most people would know how much they have in notes, a fewer number would know how many pound/2 pound coins they have.
 
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