Distance viewing something scary

[Stormkhan]

Subsequent posters were convinced of the reality of Tilly's experience and of their own in similar vein.

Good for them. I wouldn't say they were wrong to make their own minds up, from any perceived evidence.

Not all threads seek unqualified, sceptical appraisal regarding the validity of a poster's reported experience. This one did not. The validity of Tilly's post was unquestioningly accepted. Still is.

So ... this thread didn't seek unqualified appraisal but it is unquestioningly accepted. No criticial questioning required; only those who BELIEVE may comment? Hardly open-minded.

The sceptic-poster revealed he was unclear in his/her own mind about just about everything under discussion, but he had a great deal to say about it nonetheless and was under the apparent belief his/her pronouncements required to be accorded deference. There was no mutual agreement.

There are no agreements. On most of these threads, any "arguments" are stand-alone on accepted qualities. Apart from being downright offensive (which is completely unacceptable), posters are allowed to post what they wish as attack, defense, discussion or rebuttal - the arguments should demostrate their validity, in themselves.

Sceptics need to know precisely what their point is, and do a damn good job of articulating and justifying their chosen stance, before trivialising, minimising and straight out denying what another poster has submitted as true. Or those sceptics can expect to be treated with the same scepticism as they have chosen to mete out to others. I'm sure you agree.

I agree. Sceptical arguments should be able to stand up to critical analysis as much as any paranormal phenomena. But being "Sceptical" is not a crime. As in any classic debate, the point will be carried by the quality of the argument.

 

[jefflovestone]

If nothing else, I've learned that Lizard is a woman!

From another angle, I also see, hear and experience things that, when viewed rationally I can't possible know about or could possibly happen. The difference is I've been taking Largactil for 16 years to stop it happening more often than it already does.


Not a 'victim' type post, more a different way of looking at, perhaps, the same kinds of things.

 

[again6]

LOL ! LOL !

Oh, my brain hurts, thanks to Sallywaffle and Stormcan's convoluted hair-splitting, lol.

Honestly, I'm aching from laughter !

Oh, thank you, lol.

And to think they say Fortean is a burnt-out waste-land !

NO ! I say. NO --- Fortean is still a force in comedy !

I've heard people tell that they've spit or spilt coffee all over the keyboard re: some online funny, but I've never done it myself until now.

To make it better or worse, I wasn't alone, lol. Four others in the office at the time, giving me strange looks.

I was paralysed with laughter. Could only point at the screen.

Watched grins spreading across faces.

Saw their chests begin heaving in laughter before the bellows of laughter.

Then someone scrolled down to the lovely Lizard's inimitable posts and hands began clutching bellies and chests. Then the uproar of combined laughter and groans, which brought others running.

Then some fool kept scrolling from Lizard's avatar to his/her signature. Pandemonium !!!

Back and forth, back and forth; from goatish avatar and message to the little red devilish head and ' x years until my master takes me home' or whatever it says.

And people are going, 'What tha ---- what tha ---What tha ...' doubled up with laughter -- unable to speak and so pointing others to the screen, followed by more bursts of laughter and giddy stomach-clutching, lol.

Ah, I'm still aching, but the humour's been great.

But just when I get the chuckles under control, some fool prances past the door with their fingers to their head making Lizard-inspired horns ... and intoning in a B-grade horror movie voice: ' Only ~~ one~~ and~~ twenty~~ years~~~ until ....' (they don't believe Lizard's a girl. They're taking bets Liz is a 15 year old guy, so keep us posted please, I could win a fortune, not, lol )

Someone's suggested we get Sallywaffle to present our next proposals to the Japanese, seeing they don't understand what's being said anyway [so a golden opportunity for you there, Waffle ]

So thanks, Waffle and Stormcan and Lizard -- you've brightened up everyone's afternoon and loosened up (and bruised ! ) a lot of ribcages, lol

Fortean is still a force in comedy, I say !

 

[rynner2]

Easily pleased, it seems, the people in your office!

And so tolerant of them to let you have so much time browsing and posting on here!

Here's one that should have them rolling in the aisles:


Q. Why did the chicken cross the road?

A. To get to the other side!

 

[Timble2]

LOL ! LOL !

Oh, my brain hurts, thanks to Sallywaffle and Stormcan's convoluted hair-splitting, lol.


But just when I get the chuckles under control, some fool prances past the door with their fingers to their head making Lizard-inspired horns ... and intoning in a B-grade horror movie voice: ' Only ~~ one~~ and~~ twenty~~ years~~~ until ....' (they don't believe Lizard's a girl. They're taking bets Liz is a 15 year old guy, so keep us posted please, I could win a fortune, not, lol )

Did this really take place, as in this universe, rather than the one inside your head?

You've done this trick before, pouncing on an expression of doubt about someone's experiences or their interpretation and building it up into a full scale assault on them.

*BTW tilly50's original post is interesting, it could be anything from a psychic experience (as again6 obviously thinks it to be) to the surfacing of memories of a thriller (book or TV) that tilly50 saw many years ago and has otherwise forgotten...all bets are on, but tilly50 is certainly not alone with such experiences and is not crazy.

 

[_Lizard23_]

Well, it seems the party got more interesting after I left. So often the case

It is always gratifying to amuse, perhaps less so to be ridiculed, but let's not 'split hairs', eh?

As the diction of a 15 year old boy seems, not for the first time I am sure, to have caused some confusion, and, in the hope of brightening another day in the office, please allow me to attempt to explain myself just this one more time.

I consider myself a fortean and a sceptic, not a skeptic, and certainly not an uber-skeptic (if such a beast can actually exist). For the purposes of this discussion I would define the difference as being as follows:

sceptic - remains to be convinced of the existance of the paranormal
skeptic - is already convinced of the non-existance of the paranormal
uber-skeptic - bullishly and vehemently denies the existance of the paranormal.

I believe this is pretty much normal usage here, with the exception of the latter term, which I made up on the spot, but I assumed, incorrectly it would appear, it would be understood.

It was as a result of my anticipation of the reaction of non-sceptics, or believers, such as, as you point out, previously populated this thread, informed by long experience on this board, that I chose to preface my original post with the hope that I would not sound like an 'uber-skeptic' for expressing a sceptical viewpoint.

I described my 'bizarre experience', which was actually of course a very traumatic but fairly classic symptom of what is now usually called 'panic disorder', amongst, I'm sure, other conditions, by way of a possible alternate explanation for the original poster's experience. One which, in my scepticism, I consider to be at least as valid, if not more so, that again6's alternative explanation of clairvoyantly receiving someone else's fantasy or book plot.
For what it is worth, which is precisely nothing to anyone but me, I'm sure, I did not self-diagnose and treat the condition, and despite my reservations about the philosophy and methodolgy of psychotherapy I am extremely grateful to have received cognitive behavioural therapy to help in this matter.

In addition to suggesting this alternative possible explanation I have tried to communicate my opinion that 'moving the goal posts' so that what is at first called a clairvoyant vision of actual events is, in the absence of those events actually taking place, then renamed a telepathic event diminishes the credibility of the experiencer.
I tried to illustrate this point with examples of other possible, but obviously ridiculous, paranormal explanations, such as the Owlman and Mothman bet.
I also likened this back-pedalling to the behaviour of a cold-reading medium cycling through different names trying to get a 'hit' etc to attempt to explain why I felt it diminished the credibility of the phenomeneon.

These observations were met in the most part by a chorus of 'look we didn't ask to be like this and we've been treated very shoddily by people for it in the past because those who aren't like us don't understand' from those on the thread who claim to have experienced clairvoyancy as well as some misunderstanding of my posts which, naturally, I put down to my own poor communication skills.

I admit I find this a little frustrating, as, as I have repeatedly said, I am in no way denying the existance of clairvoyance, generally or in the case of the original poster or others on this thread. In my frustration I attempted to posit a psychological explanation for what I saw as the possibly willful misinterpretation of my opinions.

I do not apologise for expressing these opinions on a public message board, nor for the fact that they do not accord with the opinions of others on this thread.

I am not prepared to respond to personal attacks, false accusations and ridicule, although that level of debate is disappointing and once again does absolutely nothing, in my opinion, to lend credibility to the phenomena being discussed.

Nor do I feel inclined to respond to speculation about my gender, my avatar or my signature - how I choose to present myself within the features and guidelines of the forum are my personal preferences and completely irrelevant to this debate, piss yourselves to your hearts' content, old darlings.

I'm grateful to Sally, Stormkhan and Timble etc for their contributions which suggest to me that they at least managed to make of my rambling posts what I actually intended.

 

[mindalai]

LOL ! LOL !

Oh, my brain hurts, thanks to Sallywaffle and Stormcan's convoluted hair-splitting, lol.

Honestly, I'm aching from laughter !

Oh, thank you, lol.

And to think they say Fortean is a burnt-out waste-land !...

What a nasty, sarcastic arrogant piece of work you sound like. You aren't impressing anyone.

 

[jefflovestone]

But just when I get the chuckles under control, some fool prances past the door with their fingers to their head making Lizard-inspired horns ... and intoning in a B-grade horror movie voice: ' Only ~~ one~~ and~~ twenty~~ years~~~ until ....' (they don't believe Lizard's a girl. They're taking bets Liz is a 15 year old guy, so keep us posted please, I could win a fortune, not, lol )

Not that it matters either way, but why do you doubt Lizard is a woman? My own (wrong) assumption was based on my own set of reptilian connotations and certainly not a reflection on their posts.

Would you have as much disdain if Lizard was a 15-year-old girl?

 

[Peripart]

I've been reading this thread with interest, keeping out of the discussion because it was going pretty nicely without my input. For the first couple of pages, there was a lot of clearly-written (if lengthy) and good-natured discussion, with good points being made all round, and a scary, intriguiging tale at the heart of it.

There was disagreement, of course, but that outburst of again's came completely out of the blue. It was petty and personal, just basically very rude. Lizard and others have been trying to offer the original poster various possible explanations for what has been happening, none of which claim to be the absolute truth, but on re-reading them, I can see nothing that warrants the childish torrent of sarcasm that followed.

Perhaps, again6, if you want this thread to veer back on course (and I realise I'm probably not helping by posting this), you could explain your objections to other people's opinions in a slightly less confrontational way?

We've all got different views here - sceptical though I usually am in cases like this, tilly's visions sound chillingly real - but if you respond the way you have on this page, many potential posters will feel bullied out of giving their opinions.

 

[TheQuixote]

Quite.

again6 - The rather venomous anecdote about your fellow 'office workers' added nothing to the discussion and I don't want to see another repeat of such on this thread... The irrelevant digs about Lizard23's gender, age and profile settings on here were totally uncalled for and I'm glad to see that Lizard23 has risen above such ad homs in her reply* to you.

(*which was much more gracious than I would have been tempted to submit if I had been in her position!)

Challenge the post by all means, not the poster. Shall we now get back to the discussion at hand without resorting to personal attacks?

 

[tilly50]

Crumbs! :eek!!!!: :eek!!!!:
I am so sorry that I have been the instigator of such ire!!
I had no idea that feelings can run so high over the causes of "visions" such as I have. I don't like to call them visions as the word has connotations and I don't personally think of them as anything weird or abnormal, they just happen.
I have in the past worried that they may be caused by some underlying imbalance and have saught medical advice. I am apparently not suffering from anything pathological, nor in the opinion of medics do I suffer from any personality disorder (although any of you can disagree there!).
I sympathise with others who find what I claim to be on the wild side. I can assure everyone that I am as bemused as they are. I have a scientific background and education and have spent a long time trying to analyse it myself.
I can also assure everyone that I have had no intention or inclination to try and capitalise on the phenomena. I do not want "celebrity" and have only divulged my experiences here because of the anominity offered.
It is interesting to read the different opinions offered to account for my experiences but they are not worth falling out over guys, please!

 

[Peripart]

I am so sorry that I have been the instigator of such ire!!
I had no idea that feelings can run so high over the causes of "visions" such as I have.

It is interesting to read the different opinions offered to account for my experiences but they are not worth falling out over guys, please!

Nonsense! You have provided us with a really creepy tale, all the more so because it seems (maybe is) so real. I think all of us have responded to you in a spirit of enquiry, and have nothing but respect for anything you post on here - this is your story, after all. You're not in any way the instigator of the silly comments that have occurred.

Do tell more, if you have it - are these visions persisting? Can you make out any more details, however minor, that might help to ascertain if this is a real place you're seeing, and if so, where it is? And more to the point, if this man in his canoe is real, who is he?

 

[tilly50]

Thanks Peripart.
I do not see the canoe man on a regular basis. He comes out of the blue. I last saw him a few days ago and he was standing by water talking to a man who had a back pack on and was dressed for the cold. There had been a heavy frost.
I only see things for a second or less, a blink of an eye really. It would be hard to get a lot of detail. I find if I try to focus the image goes, if I want to see better it is best to relax and not be too bothered about it.
I do not just see people, sometimes I just get a flash of landscape. The ones I don't like (apart from the canoe man) are the ones when I'm under water, as I can't see clearly and it's only shapes moving about.

 

[tilly50]

I hope in a way that the canoe man is just something in my mind and not real, that way I would know nobody has been hurt or felt fear and suffering. It would be very comforting to me to be able to dismiss what I see in this manner.

 

[Stormkhan]

You are in a very difficult position. While you would like what you see to be in your mind, so no one is actually harmed, no one likes to think they've seen things that are hallucinations. Our experiences, at the bottom of it all, are very personal and relate to what we see of the world around us. Thus, if we realise that this 'surrounding world' can be - in effect - faked then it makes us incredibly insecure. It beggars the question "How can I really believe anything of what goes on around me?"
The very 'unreality' of what you've experienced has acted as a block on you being able to openly discuss them. I hope, at least, you've found a little comfort in being able to recount your experiences here on the FTMB (as an outlet, as it were) and you might find reasoned discussion about them not only interesting but also a way of coming to terms with them, in yourself.

 

[rynner2]

Our experiences, at the bottom of it all, are very personal and relate to what we see of the world around us. Thus, if we realise that this 'surrounding world' can be - in effect - faked then it makes us incredibly insecure. It beggars the question "How can I really believe anything of what goes on around me?"
The very 'unreality' of what you've experienced has acted as a block on you being able to openly discuss them.

Elsewhere http://www.forteantimes.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=28234
I mentioned a book I'm reading. One of its main points is that our perception of the world, and all our memories, are in a state of flux, as the brain juggles partial data and tries to make a coherent story of it. We all have only a partial picture of reality (whatever that may be) and this applies to all of us, I guess, psychic or not.

 

[stu neville]

I am so sorry that I have been the instigator of such ire!!
I had no idea that feelings can run so high over the causes of "visions" such as I have.

It is interesting to read the different opinions offered to account for my experiences but they are not worth falling out over guys, please!

Nonsense! You have provided us with a really creepy tale, all the more so because it seems (maybe is) so real. I think all of us have responded to you in a spirit of enquiry, and have nothing but respect for anything you post on here - this is your story, after all. You're not in any way the instigator of the silly comments that have occurred.

Couldn't have put it better myself . You have nothing whatsoever to apologise for, Tilly - thank you for sharing your experience. Glad to see the thread is back on course already.

 

[again6]

Ah well, as they say: 'Give them an inch ...'

Timble, as usual, has grasped the wrong end of the stick entirely, in her haste to lambast me, lol.

Read it all again Timble, please, and when you get to the section where I was defending Tilly against the nonsense posted as 'scepticism' by Lizard ---- have the grace to clasp your head in shame and say: 'Ooops -- maybe I should have read it. Now I sound a real idiot, for posterity'.


The reason Fortean has lost so many interesting members is illustrated nowhere as well as the latter section of this thread. It's been discussed and bemoaned in these forums umpteen times; this tendency amongst those who regard themselves as regulars to jump in boots and all without really asking themselves first: (a) am I taking part in this hoped-for disembowelling because I actually feel this strongly about the topic under discussion .... or (b) because I'm a frustrated and angry individual who will grasp any opportunity to put the boot in --- as long as my fellow frustrated regulars are right behind me?'

Others need to ask themselves: ' Do I really believe this psuedo-righteous post I'm about to submit .... or am I so insecure and lacking real-life companions that must be seen-to-be supporting whatever attack is currently in progress here?'

Do you know, when I'd been posting here for a few weeks, years ago, I received private messages warning me about a group of posters here in Fortean who are so short of a real life that they private message each other and arrange to meet in x-thread in order to get stuck into someone.

I was invited to join alternative forums, comprising almost entirely of ex-
Forteans who'd had enough.

But I chose to stay here. It's a great study of human behaviour and the pack-mentality which thrives in anonymity.[/

It's a shame you cannot accurately read and comprehend what had passed before in a thread prior to jumping in from the safety of your keyboard.

Why not go back and read this thread again.

I don't expect a great deal of honesty from the usual-suspects, but even the most dense and cowardly will be forced to the unavoidable conclusion that Tilly's posts received respectful responses, as they ought, until Lizard descended with his/her own tales of knife and rape fantasies which she had decided were simply evidence of her mind 'torturing itself'.

That being the case, Lizard then saw fit to announce to all that dreams and nightmares derived in 99% (high, isn't it?) in the mind of the dreamer.

Except ---- Tilly did not dream the canoe-man, as was explained more than once in her posts. But --- Lizard saw fit not to let the experiencer's own testimony get in the way of a good story.

Now, seeing you all have so much time on your hands, why not spend it reviewing Lizard's other gems and convulutions?

Lizard for example chastised me, I would think, for what he/she described as 'baroque' interpretations of Tilly's experiences. In fact, I think you'll find Lizard described these as 'increasingly baroque'.

Lizard then followed this by suggesting 'Owlman, Mothman, aliens, CIA operatives, otherworldly gods playing with the minds of men,' etc. could be responsible for Tilly experiences. How would you describe these denizens nominated by Lizard: Prosaic? --- as opposed to 'baroque' ?

But again, why would the usual suspects bother to actually consider what has gone before when there's a fight in it for them; an opportunity to prove to each other -- through a deliberately created common-enemy (in this instance myself) just how united they are; how swiftly they can muster their pack-hound buddies?
It's a lot to read, this thread from the beginning, isn't it?

And concentration obviously is NOT the strong point of the usual suspects, whereas pack-mentality comes naturally to them.

Lizard said he/she did not wish to be regarded as a 'ubersceptic'.

He/she added they did not completely discount the paranormal. Not completely.

He/she did not say: ' I do not discount the paranormal'

Nor did he/she say: ' I do subscribe to certain theories suggestive of the paranormal'.

No, he/she does not completely discount the paranormal.

As would most, I read it as meaning: ' I almost but not quite discount the paranormal'. That is usual meaning of such an utterance.

What do you -- the usual suspects --- read into that remark? This promises to be interesting, lol. We've already seen Waffle's attempts to split hairs in order to put new meaning, in retrospect, into Lizard's remark.

Why does it have a bearing on the matter? Well it doesn't really, apart from making Fortean forums an unlikely place for someone who 'almost' discounts the paranormal, to hang around.

To recap: what we had was an interesting and friction-free thread concerned with Tilly's experiences. People assured Tilly that they also had similar experiences and that these had been greeting in the same unfortunate manner at time, as had Tilly's.

Speculation naturally commenced re: the origin/source of the visions Tilly was receiving.

Tilly had already stated that she'd had similar visions throughout life and that these were generally confirmed as accurate.

Posters to that point appeared (read the postings) of the belief that Tilly's experiences and claims were genuine.

Now there have been various posts since then questioning that this was the case, but again, read the thread in its entirety and see for yourself.

I have stated in earlier posts that Tilly's claims and experiences met with compassion, understanding, empathy and acceptance.

Certain posters have rebutted my comment. Why? Why not go ahead and read the thread until Lizard's initial contribution and 99% claims.

There was no attempt to ridicule Tilly or demand 'proof' of her experience. It seemed the general consensus that here was a woman who'd had these visions -- now let's see if we can assist her either follow the visions up, or put them to bed.

There were questions regarding details of the canoe and canoe man and other visuals, in order a dating might possibly be fixed to the visions.

Then along came Lizard with his/her pronouncement that the visions in all probablity derived from Tilly's own mind. 99% probability. Not much room to move there, eh? There it was; spelt out for Tilly; ' It's 99% assured that your own mind invented these visions. Boom boom; signed Lizard.

Lizard had had some disturbing dreams and Lizard had self-diagnosed these dreams as nothing more than his/her own mind deciding to 'torture itself'. Therefore, according to Lizard, Tilly's experience was attributable to the same mental disorder.

Tilly attempted to advise Lizard (and those involved in or viewing this thread) that she did not dream them, thanks, nor did she have any reason to suspect the visions were a product of her own mind.

Well, I for one, judged Tilly as sort of knowing what she was talking about.

YOU -- the usual suspects may not grant Tilly that certainty; in fact it's clear you do not !

But I did. And I said so.

Lizard may imagine he/she knows all there is to know, based on his/her own experiences, but as was suggested to Lizard early in the piece: what applies to Lizard does not necessarily apply to everyone else.

Do you -- the usual suspects -- dispute this? If so, kindly explain. Otherwise, Fortean (in addition to posing as comedy central) will need to explain to the seething masses why it is now a case of: The World According to Lizard '. Can you DO that convincingly, do you think? (lol)

No, the best you can do is mutter and private message and rub yourselves while enjoying what you hoped would be another little Fortean blood-fest like those of old --- when this place had a LOT MORE members and you believed you could slaughter a few for your own enjoyment and more would pour through the door.

Well, the old times are gone !

So why not pop your 'brain' caps on and go back through the thread in order to find out what on earth you believe you're talking about. Because it's obvious -- Timble in particular --- that you are not familiar with what's occurred and you do not care, as long as you can poke your noses in without getting hurt.

In this instance, Stuneville gets points for lifting himself above the rabble he allowed himself to join last time this occurred.

Sadly, my favourite Rynner gets the thumbs down for his craven joining the rabble in order to maintain his position in this sad and lonely outpost.

Pick it up please Rynner for your own sake if nothing else. If you retrace your steps re: this thread, you will see that BEFORE Lizard's contradictory contributions, you were advising all and sundry that I was providing 'good advice' to Tilly ---- who, in case anyone's forgotten -- was originally the focus of this thread -- not the whine, whine, poor me Lizard who instigates situations in order bitter, twisted, frustrated individuals such as Timble, can get their rocks off.

Yes, let's get Tilly's thread back on track and let's focus on Tilly's experiences again . It was in the hope this would already have occurred that I revisted this thread again. I should have known what I'd find, lol.

All those self-righteous joke-persons who jumped on the band-wagon in order to chuck rocks, I ask you: what did you gain, eh? how long did it last, the heady sensation of belonging to a virtual pack? Five minutes? Ten? No more, surely

Did it make YOU a better person? Did it find you a job? Did it comb your hair or rid you of the flab? Did it pay the rent or put food in your stomach?

No. Being part of a virtual pack does none of this.
You're still the same sad, cowardly nonentity you were before you joined the pack.

Now you know why Fortean is a laugh a minute, lol.

Oh, Rynner: didn't have time to address your bitchy little contribution earlier, but yes, seeing as we have contributed a sizeable proportion of the finances, we can do pretty much as we please. As for your chicken joke; better save it for the grandkids, huh.

 

[again6]

Ah --- I neglected to ASK !!!

WHERE is the self-righteous clique's defence of poor DINGO ?

Where ? Lead me to it, because I haven't seen it.

Where are those decrying lizard's childish, vindictive, jealous and twisted rant again Dingo and Dingo's experiences, etc ??

Gee, people actually come in here for a laugh ! You don't want them to believe you're one-eyed, do you, as well as lacking in comprehension and reasoning skills?

Off you go now.

Step One: Find Lizard's nasty and uncalled for attempted character assassination of Dingo just because Lizard wasn't getting too much attention with her boasts about 'her own rather fine skills ' lol.

Step Two: Analyse Lizard's spiteful, bitchy rant against Dingo in particular and ask yourself WHAT Dingo had done or said to provoke Lizard's animosity

Step Three: (This is the fun bit) Private Message all remaining members of the clique (a lot have died -- of boredom, lol) and tell them to meet again in this thread for another bashing

(Pardon me: we have just been alerted that lol -- a little someone --- is scanning our ports and we know who that is, don't we. The tech's will find out for sure as soon as I've completed this. Watch out you ! We SEE you, lol )

Step Four: LEAP to poor Dingo's defence by telling Lizard what a thread-killing, nasty, needs-to-get-a-real-life individual she is for attacking and maligning other posters under basically -- no justification other than Lizard wasn't being accorded (by anyone I should add) the importance he/she obviously fantasises TOO much about receiving.

Then continue to hurl as many nasty remarks as you can cut and paste them to Lizard until YOU feel better or until you've lost weight or whatever it is you're actually so angry about begins to ease, just a little, for just a moment, lol.

You know what they say: Do it ! Do it now ! Defend Dingo as you know you should, lol.

 

[Timble2]

Ah well, as they say: 'Give them an inch ...'

Timble, as usual, has grasped the wrong end of the stick entirely, in her haste to lambast me, lol.

Read it all again Timble, please, and when you get to the section where I was defending Tilly against the nonsense posted as 'scepticism' by Lizard ---- have the grace to clasp your head in shame and say: 'Ooops -- maybe I should have read it. Now I sound a real idiot, for posterity'.

I've read your fantasies often enough to not need to read them again.

No one says Tilly50's experiences weren't real, the discussion was whether they were psychic or psychological or something else. You attack anyone who doesn't accept your interpretation.

I doubt the reality of you own stories though, I don't believe you can distinguish between what goes on inside your head and outside it.

And you can scream all you like, it just makes you look more foolish.

 

[_Lizard23_]

Wow.

Just wow.

I suggest an interpretation, I describe a difficult personal experience, I profer a few opinions, and now I'm on the wrong message board, I'm a no-life loser, a figure of fun, a hacker, and a spiteful, bitchy, pitiful, childish, vindictive, arrogant, egotistical, frustrated, jealous and angry fantasist and anyone who doesn't think so can't read, is in a 'PM gang' and is a sad, cowardly non-entity, just like me.

I hope you get your posting privileges back soon.

Actually, no I don't.

 

[stu neville]

Ah well, as they say: 'Give them an inch ...'

Timble, as usual, has grasped the wrong end of the stick entirely, in her haste to lambast me, lol.

That would be “him”.

Read it all again Timble, please, and when you get to the section where I was defending Tilly against the nonsense posted as 'scepticism' by Lizard ---- have the grace to clasp your head in shame and say: 'Ooops -- maybe I should have read it. Now I sound a real idiot, for posterity'.

Ad hominem number 1, of many.

The reason Fortean has lost so many interesting members is illustrated nowhere as well as the latter section of this thread. It's been discussed and bemoaned in these forums umpteen times; this tendency amongst those who regard themselves as regulars to jump in boots and all without really asking themselves first: (a) am I taking part in this hoped-for disembowelling because I actually feel this strongly about the topic under discussion .... or (b) because I'm a frustrated and angry individual who will grasp any opportunity to put the boot in --- as long as my fellow frustrated regulars are right behind me?'

Not a slight generalisation there, at all?

Others need to ask themselves: ' Do I really believe this psuedo-righteous post I'm about to submit ....

Did you?

..or am I so insecure and lacking real-life companions that must be seen-to-be supporting whatever attack is currently in progress here?'

Well, no-one’s supporting yours, as far as I can see. Or is that because they’re all blind to your obvious righteousness?

Do you know, when I'd been posting here for a few weeks, years ago, I received private messages warning me about a group of posters here in Fortean who are so short of a real life that they private message each other and arrange to meet in x-thread in order to get stuck into someone.

I’m perfectly satisfied that isn’t what’s happening here.

I was invited to join alternative forums, comprising almost entirely of ex-Forteans who'd had enough.

But I chose to stay here. It's a great study of human behaviour and the pack-mentality which thrives in anonymity.

bet they all wish you’d accepted. Anyway, what’s with the BOLD type everywhere?

It's a shame you cannot accurately read and comprehend what had passed before in a thread prior to jumping in from the safety of your keyboard.

More collective ad hominem…

Why not go back and read this thread again.

I don't expect a great deal of honesty from the usual-suspects, but even the most dense and cowardly will be forced to the unavoidable…

And again…

Lizard for example chastised me, I would think, for what he/she described as 'baroque' interpretations of Tilly's experiences. In fact, I think you'll find Lizard described these as 'increasingly baroque'.

”Increasingly baroque” is about as kind a description of your interpretations as I could muster, as well. Count yourself lucky.

Lizard then followed this by suggesting 'Owlman, Mothman, aliens, CIA operatives, otherworldly gods playing with the minds of men,' etc. could be responsible for Tilly experiences. How would you describe these denizens nominated by Lizard: Prosaic? --- as opposed to 'baroque' ?

No, just no more baroque than your own, very individual take on the matter. Lizard’s suggestions aren’t belittling yours, merely providing alternatives. Perhaps you’d best re-read said suggestions in the light of your own post, before imploring anyone else to “hang their heads in shame for posterity”, whatever that actually means.

But again, why would the usual suspects bother to actually consider what has gone before when there's a fight in it for them; an opportunity to prove to each other -- through a deliberately created common-enemy (in this instance myself) just how united they are; how swiftly they can muster their pack-hound buddies?
It's a lot to read, this thread from the beginning, isn't it?

And concentration obviously is NOT the strong point of the usual suspects, whereas pack-mentality comes naturally to them.

You know, we very rarely see collective ad homs. this post may have broken the record all on it's own.

Lizard said he/she did not wish to be regarded as a 'ubersceptic'.

He/she added they did not completely discount the paranormal. Not completely.

He/she did not say: ' I do not discount the paranormal'

Nor did he/she say: ' I do subscribe to certain theories suggestive of the paranormal'.

No, he/she does not completely discount the paranormal.

As would most, I read it as meaning: ' I almost but not quite discount the paranormal'. That is usual meaning of such an utterance.

What do you -- the usual suspects --- read into that remark? This promises to be interesting, lol. We've already seen Waffle's attempts to split hairs in order to put new meaning, in retrospect, into Lizard's remark.

Or maybe just attempting to reiterate it for the sake of clarity?

Why does it have a bearing on the matter? Well it doesn't really, apart from making Fortean forums an unlikely place for someone who 'almost' discounts the paranormal, to hang around.

Why? Do you actually know what Fortean means?

To recap: what we had was an interesting and friction-free thread concerned with Tilly's experiences.

We did, too – wonder what happened there then?

Speculation naturally commenced re: the origin/source of the visions Tilly was receiving.

Tilly had already stated that she'd had similar visions throughout life and that these were generally confirmed as accurate.

Posters to that point appeared (read the postings) of the belief that Tilly's experiences and claims were genuine.

Now there have been various posts since then questioning that this was the case, but again, read the thread in its entirety and see for yourself.

I have stated in earlier posts that Tilly's claims and experiences met with compassion, understanding, empathy and acceptance.

Certain posters have rebutted my comment. Why? Why not go ahead and read the thread until Lizard's initial contribution and 99% claims.

There was no attempt to ridicule Tilly or demand 'proof' of her experience. It seemed the general consensus that here was a woman who'd had these visions -- now let's see if we can assist her either follow the visions up, or put them to bed.

So.. what you want is for people to post experiences, and for everyone just to accept that is what happened without any questioning whatsoever? That’s not what this forum is about.

Lizard suggested alternatives – it wasn’t done in a discourteous way, it wasn't done abusively or condescendingly, but merely as a statement of viable alternative explanation. It wasn’t some sort of vitriolic, generalised attack, which is how you seem to be seeking to characterise it.

…Do you -- the usual suspects -- dispute this? If so, kindly explain. Otherwise, Fortean (in addition to posing as comedy central) …

..more collective ad hominem.. Ad hominae?

No, the best you can do is mutter and private message and rub yourselves while enjoying what you hoped would be another little Fortean blood-fest like those of old --- when this place had a LOT MORE members and you believed you could slaughter a few for your own enjoyment and more would pour through the door.

Well, the old times are gone !

So why not pop your 'brain' caps on and go back through the thread in order to find out what on earth you believe you're talking about. Because it's obvious -- Timble in particular --- that you are not familiar with what's occurred and you do not care, as long as you can poke your noses in without getting hurt.

What are you on about, exactly? Unless you mean when posters appeared to turn on others who would make utterly offensive remarks or unwarranted assumptions about the motives of others by posting articulately and with dignity? Sometimes happens to this day. Most posters, however, don’t rise to such juvenile tactics.

In this instance, Stuneville gets points for lifting himself above the rabble he allowed himself to join last time this occurred.

I fear I may have forfeited said points in your eyes, now. Rabble? Oh – people who disagree with you.

Sadly, my favourite Rynner gets the thumbs down for his craven joining the rabble in order to maintain his position in this sad and lonely outpost.

Individual insult…

Pick it up please Rynner for your own sake if nothing else. If you retrace your steps re: this thread, you will see that BEFORE Lizard's contradictory contributions, you were advising all and sundry that I was providing 'good advice' to Tilly ---- who, in case anyone's forgotten -- was originally the focus of this thread -- not the whine, whine, poor me Lizard who instigates situations in order bitter, twisted, frustrated individuals such as Timble, can get their rocks off.

Individual insults… not looking good, I’m afraid…

Yes, let's get Tilly's thread back on track and let's focus on Tilly's experiences again . It was in the hope this would already have occurred that I revisted this thread again. I should have known what I'd find, lol.

All those self-righteous joke-persons who jumped on the band-wagon in order to chuck rocks, I ask you: what did you gain, eh? how long did it last, the heady sensation of belonging to a virtual pack? Five minutes? Ten? No more, surely

Did it make YOU a better person? Did it find you a job? Did it comb your hair or rid you of the flab? Did it pay the rent or put food in your stomach?

No. Being part of a virtual pack does none of this.
You're still the same sad, cowardly nonentity you were before you joined the pack.

Now you know why Fortean is a laugh a minute, lol.

Oh, Rynner: didn't have time to address your bitchy little contribution earlier, but yes, seeing as we have contributed a sizeable proportion of the finances, we can do pretty much as we please. As for your chicken joke; better save it for the grandkids, huh.

Are you pleased with this particular stretch of paranoid, mirror-blind, vitriolic hate?

Hope so, as it’s earned you an amber stage warning (the sheer quantity of individual and collective abuse and condescension, and ignoring a request by a mod to tone it down, means you’ve by-passed the first stage altogether.)

One more outburst like this and you’re out.


edited for clarity

 

[Heckler]

:shock: more venom on this thread than a box of miffed rattlers.

Tilly don't be discouraged, most threads aren't like this.

There's a number of very interesting points raised here, amongst others:

1. If we act on a precognative dream/vision then how can we be sure of the precognative nature of it, are we glimpsing a view of a multiverse or is the future variable (but if so how can we glimpse it)?

2. If a remote viewing of a present event is indeed what it appears to be then what mechanism is at work and importantly without verification of it how can we be sure of it's objective reality? If it is verified (I'm thinking here of the Morrell strait jacket torture stress projection) then is it verification of a 'astral' self?

Morrell

Anyhoo some great points raised by Lizard et al so let's discuss those and leave the rants for blogs eh?

 

[tilly50]

Hi,
I'm still a bit taken aback with all the trouble I've caused.
I've read what you said about remote viewing and astral projection induced by stress, and I think I get the idea. Thing is I don't think that I have been that pressured for all these years Sometimes, I admit, I have felt like I'm was going to explode I was under so much stress, but I can't recall having any more or less remote viewings during these episodes of my life.

 

[GNC]

Hi,
I'm still a bit taken aback with all the trouble I've caused.

As far as I can see you haven't caused any trouble. Don't blame yourself for another poster's poor judgement. This is a good topic for discussion.

 

[Mighty_Emperor]

Hi,
I'm still a bit taken aback with all the trouble I've caused.

As far as I can see you haven't caused any trouble. Don't blame yourself for another poster's poor judgement. This is a good topic for discussion.

Quoted for emphasis.

Tilly: Trust me this has absolutely nothing to do with you.

 

[rynner2]

Could not all the 'troublesome' posts (and my reference to them here) simply be deleted?

No-one wants to read hair-splitting posts about who's been hair-splitting, especially when couched in - um - unfriendly terms!

 

[Mighty_Emperor]

Could not all the 'troublesome' posts (and my reference to them here) simply be deleted?

No-one wants to read hair-splitting posts about who's been hair-splitting, especially when couched in - um - unfriendly terms!

Once this has all been resolved the various posts will fade like the mist.

 

[Gemaki]

Tilly, please don't be upset, listen to us... what's going on with you is a very good topic here. Have you ever tried looking up those pics of missing people, like someone suggested?

It's really the only clue you have, because you can't see any road signs or other ways to find out where it is, so maybe you can fiigure out the who's.

I couldn't imagine what a remote viewing is like, I'd probably be freaking out. Take care.

 

[Beakmoo]

Yes, don't worry about the turn the thread has taken Tilly, it's no reflection on you or your experiences. I've never had any possible clairvoyant experiences like yours, but I have had something that looked like precognition, and I know that even though it sounds rather glamorous, in reality it's really rather scary and unwelcome. It's good that you shared your experiences here.