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Do You Think Hallucinogens Can Lead To Paranormal Experiences?

Re: Canary grass (Phalaris)Laten name

Bill said:
Grows all over Northern Europe in the summer(by river banks/lakes)a reed grass type,the leave can be dried and smoked(containt dmt)but in lower amounts,nice to mix with your favourite mix.
Greetings
Bill.
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Ooooooooooo down this road lies all sorts of problems (including ergotism).

Just to clarify we aren't condoning the taking of drugs just discussing the Fortean aspects - if you are going to take them then you need to know exactly what you are doing so do some reaidng and read up on the pros and the cons. The govenment in the UK is running a good open drugs discussion here (although their A-Z of Drugs doesn't include DMT, Canary grass or peyote):

http://www.talktofrank.com

Anyway back to the scheduled program ;)

Emps
 
There was am interesting letter in the magazine recently.
Somebody used to go out to a hut in some woods and trip, they saw some 'little people'.
Some of the person's friends went out to the woods to do the same, they too saw little people.
Apparently the first person never told the second person about what they had seen.

Anecdotal evidence such as this suggests there may be some 'source' which we tap into during altered states of consciousness.
Although I never experienced anything paranormal when I used to imbibe hallucinogens, there were many times when I 'saw' the same things as my friends (simulataneously, without any verbal prompting). So on the other hand, this sort of thing may just be due to common modes of imagination between friends, the way hallucinations 'suggest' themselves from the tripper's surroundings then making to people to see the same thing.

I don't know, but I would say that these Shamans are just thoroughly off their faces, rather than in the spirit world.
I believe a member of the band EMF once visited the control panel of the universe whilst on DMT, I think this must have been entirely in his own head, otherwise we would have all unaccountably brought the second album.
 
This all begs the question: when under the influence of mind-altering substances, how can you tell a paranormal experience from a mundane hallucination/change in perception?
Any thoughts?
 
The question you are asking is this: How can you tell the difference between the thing that is perceived and the thing that is actually real?

It is very easy to fall into the belief that there is a thing independant of your perception of it, but how can you prove this in a way that doesn't require perception?

This is one of the more notorious questions of philosophy- to explore it further you could start by reading the Critique of Pure Reason by Immanuel Kant. It's hard going, though.
 
Wembley said:
This all begs the question: when under the influence of mind-altering substances, how can you tell a paranormal experience from a mundane hallucination/change in perception?
Any thoughts?
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Surely that is making a few assumptions:

1. That a paranormal experience is more valid than a hallucinatory one.

2. That they aren't tapping into the same source (whether that is some other level of reality or the stranger corners of the human mind).

Emps
 
Well

Having a near death experence is something that no drug induced moment can offer and drug induced moments do not lead to near death experences.
A near death experence is a trip in it's own right.
Many Many Joyus re-births
Bill.
 
"The question you are asking is this: How can you tell the difference between the thing that is perceived and the thing that is actually real? "

No it isn't

:)

Already been there with Kant & co; that kind of philosphy isn't terribly helpful in a fortean context, and 'hard going' is something of an understatement!

I'm happy with conventional thinking on reality (ie metaphysical realism) and the existence of an intersubjective world if not an objective one. Otherwise you might as well talk to yourself...

You can refine the question to one about the difference between any mundane and paranormal experience, drug-related or otherwise.
 
1. That a paranormal experience is more valid than a hallucinatory one.

Nah, that's your assumption. But I accept that the question implis that there is A difference.

2. That they aren't tapping into the same source (whether that is some other level of reality or the stranger corners of the human mind).

Again, your assumption. Maybe they are, maybe they aren't.
But can you tell the difference?
 
Well given that both are fairly unusual I'm not sure that there is any meaningful way to tell the difference. There is a cultural element to this as well- many of the natural hallucinogens people use have been the most sacred tools of the priesthood in many cultures and in modern terms they are treated more as toys. I think a shaman/priest describing their spirit journey would be taken both seriously and literally in their culture. We would discount it completely as a hallucination. Is there a middle ground? Can the discipline and learning of priest/shaman types be applied to control the internal "hallucinatory" world and break through into the external "mundane" world?

This is an area I know very little about in all honesty- my knowledge of shamanism extends broadly as far as knowing that technically the term is only valid for certain groups in siberia - but I'm sure that there are others here with a wider knowledge of this who can probably shine a little light.

I'm a bit concerned about the paranormal/hallucination distinction as well but the more I think about those definitions the more I start to wonder where paranormal begins and mundane ends. That seems a very flexible boundary.

I suppose the only real way to know is corroboration - if you hallucinate that you are seeing one of your mates peeling carrots in their kitchen while listening to the Archers and then you speak to them later and they say that they were doing exactly that at that time.
 
It's better to be advised than unadvised

Phalaris arundinacea
Reed canary grass

Isolated Chemicals:
DMT


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Preparations:
Ayahuasca
"Ayahuasca" refers to a diverse complex of South American entheogenic brews, but classically comprises a source of DMT made orally active by the addition of a plant containing harmala alkaloids for monoamine oxidase inhibition.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Documents:
Smokable DMT from Organic Sources
Old information on Phalaris extractions by Mescalito Ted, with an excerpt from DeKorne's "Psychedelic Shamanism"
Quick Test for Reed Canarygrass Alkaloid Concentration
A plant alkaloid screening procedure by J.R. Frelich & G.C. Marten from
more...

Read more,it is better to be advised than unadvised.Bill:)
http://www.lycaeum.org (look under plants)
 
Breakfast:
I'm a bit concerned about the paranormal/hallucination distinction as well but the more I think about those definitions the more I start to wonder where paranormal begins and mundane ends. That seems a very flexible boundary.
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I can't remember the exact source, but when I was in my reading Terrance McKenna phase, I recall reading somewhere the claim the DMT (or was it ketamine?) was (or was an analogue of) a naturally occuring neurochemical. If that is correct, it seems to me that some "paranormal" experiences are caused by a release of a large amount of such a natural neurochemical. Possibly due to some external trigger.


I'd be really worried when other people start having my hallucination. (Actually, that's a good distinction when dealing with phenomena -- does just one person experience it, or many?)
 
RE:Breakfast.

If you want to learn more about the paranormal,try fasting for a week(drinking only water in sips)to releave stomach tension.
The cleaner your body is(IE-Blood)the healther your spirit is,a healthy clean spirit will help you trancend/blend with the paranormal.
Are you on medication(Prozac,Risperidon,Lythium etc)people on happy pills can sometimes drift between reality/nonreality and go in to ;;flex time::
Also a feeling called :::Living between your life::::
Translated mean---That you are not living your life,but you are not living someones elses.
THIS is where the paranormal comes into effect, having a near death experence(going through the white light)will help you understand this.
But near death experences only occure under certain conditions and if you ever have one----DON'T PANIC---- Just go into it
PS:remember this you know when it is happening,the spirit (life energy) just goes, only to be replaiced by White Light in the brain.
Bill.
 
If yall are interested in Ethnobotany then
http://www.ethnobotany-australia.net/
is a fantastic site to visit.
I myself am a member (different logon) as I am a budding ethnobot.
There are some really interesting discussions and people of great knowledge who are very helpfull, if any of you Gnomes are interested.
I love the alternative name of DMT= Elf Spice.
You guys in the UK are so much less restricted as far as natural ethnogens are concerned.
Make hay while the sun shines.
 
Thanks Fenris

See you on the other side.
Many joyus re-births.
Bill
 
An informed comunity is a happy comunityy

Make use of all the infomation on this thred,learn from what others have given you,thank you for the contributions.
Namaste
Peace
Bill.
 
I just finished reading Terence McKenna's 'Food of the Gods'.
A radical history of plants, drugs and human evolution.
Fantastic its a must read.
 
How can anyone be sure that their "paranormal" or "out-of-the-body" experience wasn't due to something they ate for breakfast or were administered by their medic?
Or, of course, due to changing their normal body chemistry by indulging in the unnatural practice of extended fasting.
 
Perhaps there is a small chance that a change in body chemistry can alter our perception enough to allow us to see real things that the normal brain filters out just so it can function in this reality.
Perhaps the paranpormal experience is not the workings of a delusional mind but of a mind that has opened the gates to which all maner of perception can now flood in.
I don't believe the altered state of body chemistry should diminish the validity of the experience.

Or perhaps not.
 
I agree with you Fenris.

As a great user of hallucinagens and opiates in the early 70s, I've experienced a large number of weird happenings.

The analagy I always draw for myself is that, it was as if my subconscious was drawing over and enhancing what my conscious mind perceived (a bit like tweaking a bit of video footage in a computer editing application).

Great fun, but unreal (probably why I never had any bad trips even when I dropped A LOT of acid :D ).
 
ive used loads of LSD and mushrooms, peyote, and muscamol (fly agaric) for me hawaiian psylocybin and mucamol have been the most mystical experiences but nothing concrete hallucination or genuine experience i have no idea (and whos to say a hallucination is not a genuine mystical happening?)

a friend of mine got hold of some DMT took it and went off to japan where he joined a zen monastery for 5 years as a monk during which time he participated in alsorts of wierd happenings

then he woke up from the trance, he'd been tripping for around half an hour but still had some really clear memories of his "time in japan" :eek!!!!:

now if only i could find some...
 
I agree with Breakfast,the only way to prove the experience is through corroboration.
I've had an experience where my wife was at a crystalware party and I was at home.
I was drinking rum and coke(no exotic drugs)and feeling myself go into a very relaxed state.
It's difficult to describe but when you go into a transcendental state you can tell. There's a feeling that time is a fluid thing....not evenly spaced out in linear fashion as we perceive it through typical consciousness.
Anyhow,I decided to look in on my wife--which I have done once before in a similar state.
I was able to pick up on a name,one of the other party goers of whom she had not spoken of before.
At the time I was looking in on her she was overcome with a sudden headache and left the party shortly thereafter.
When she returned home she stated her purchase,where upon I stated the price of the purchase,then I asked her if she knew of this name I picked up on. It was a woman who was seated next to her at the party.
I see no reason why drugs cannot bring about an altered yet very real level of perception. I believe as in a typical state of consciousness as well as an altered state of consciousness there are things that are filtered out and you must be aware of this when under the influence.
With practice this filtering process becomes second nature.
 
How about Olanzapine 20mg b.d anyone? Or Clozapaine 250mg b.d? Thems the drugs! Antipsychotics!

As this thread seems to be about everyone getting off their heads, just a reminder that psychotropic drugs can lead to serious mental health problems. I've worked several years on psych/Mental Health acute wards and have seen loads of people come in paranoid and psychotic as hell on a variety of drugs and some end up having a diagnosis for the rest of their lives and never come back again. Even smoking weed can do it to you particularly that skunk stuff - just like bad acid.

I used to take a fair bit of acid and mushies myself in my younger days, but believe me I would'nt have if I'd known what I know now.

So if the trips are getting bad or the weed is giving you the fear, then stop it. Just be sensible.

Sorry to sound like an boring old know it all prick but honestly it sucks keeping on seeing these scared-shitless youngsters turn up and me have to give them shitty medication to try and sort them out.
 
Hobbes said:
So if the trips are getting bad or the weed is giving you the fear, then stop it. Just be sensible.

Sorry to sound like an boring old know it all prick but honestly it sucks keeping on seeing these scared-shitless youngsters turn up and me have to give them shitty medication to try and sort them out.
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Damned good advice! ;)
 
Yesterday's FT suggests this was quite a timely topic of conversation, anyroads...
 
Forgot about this thread....what a great read.

Whats the story with the geometric patterns.

Is this the Hyperverse ? You know, all the beautiful grids and stuff...

DMT=Elf Spice, love that.....currently reading the book- "DMT the Spirit Molecule," with it's horrible new age cover, however this scientist in a Altered Statess kinda scenerio ,seems to explain it all, including alien abductions...
The pineal gland and a dash of naturally occouring, DMT
seems to be the anwser to many a strange expierience?

What does it all mean??? The scholars involved were not prepared to say if the subjects expierence was not real or not.
A sitting on the fence allogory which reminds me of Jungs UFO theory, believable but not provable. Whatever....
 
I haven't read the whole thread, so excuse me if anyone has already mentioned this, but I recommend reading the works of Stanislav Grof, who used LSD in his treatment of psychiatric patients in the 50s or 60s. I started a thread myself to try to find out if anyone has read anything about the later development of the patients he treated in this way, but it met with frosty dismissal by the FT community.

Anyway, Stan's conclusion was that there is certainly a transpersonal realm into which each of us can tap using a variety of methods. LSD is a swift and easy way in according to him and the experiences of the user are real.
 
I think there is quite a difference between man made (drugs & halucinogens) and the naturally occurring ones.
Most of my experiences (book learned ;) )would lead me to believe that a lot of plant based drugs have the ability to let you appreciate nature and communicate with a less than tangible realm. There is a feeling that you are plugged into the earth mind and can see and feel much more of what is going on in nature.
Such examples can be found in south America where Ayahuasca is consumed and later the journey to meet you spirit guide begins.
Likewise the Siberian shaman who took Amanita muscaria (fly agaric), and the central Americans took psilocybe mushrooms.
I think this is qualitatively different to man made drugs that are consumed for recreation. Not that the others are not, esp magic mushrooms, but what you come away with from the experience is different.
DMT is the active principle in Ayahuasca which is oraly potentiated by a mono amine oxidase which is found primarily in the creeping vine Banisteriopsis capii.

Ditto to what Hobbes & Andro said.
These things need to be treated with respect and caution.
The mind is a fragile thing.

Redneck. Nice work on getting hold of DMT the spirit molecule. It is on my to read list.
 
The main plant that contains the DMT molecule in Ayahuasca is Chacruna (Psychotria viridis) the DMT is found in the leaves.
 
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