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Down with them both, I say

Well, a cult is a religion, but the difference is that a cult is generally viewed as being fake or extremist, with the leader being viewed as particularly unconventional.

Personally, I find it hard to distinguish the two...
 
Well, this is a little generalised, but I would say a religion is a spritual group with a belief in a higher being, whereas in a cult, the higher being is the leader. So, as far as Branch Davidians were concerned, not only was David Koresh their leader, he was god.

Cults generally die soon after their leader pops his clogs. Religions go on (and on and on). Which makes Jehovah's Witnesses a little difficult to catagorise, as technically they're a cult, but they've been going some time.

It's not a failsafe definition, but it's all I could think of off the top of my head.

But Scientology's not a cult. Oh deary me no. Let's not suggest that for a second, else this could get expensive.
 
That would make christianity a cult (jesus being the leader/higher being), and most christians would label anything but themselves a cult.

by the way, Waco is about 100 miles from here.
 
You know, even as I typed the previous post, I just knew someone would say 'that makes Christianity a Cult'. And it didn't take long, did it? ;)

Christianity has been around 2,000 years, so probably not best defined as a cult, given my previous description. Also, while I admit my Bible knowledge is a little rusty these days, I don't remember Jesus ever saying 'I am God' nor even 'I am the Son of God'. IIRC other people called him that. He Himself told Pontius Pilate 'It is you who say it'. So, no, I wouldn't define Christianity itself as a cult, although I would respectfully submit that in the broad range of sub divisions of Christianity, there are cults i.e. Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormon, The Family for starters.

As David Barratt quotes in 'The New Believers - Sects, 'Cults', and Alternative Religions' - it can be said the difference between a Religion and a Cult is about a million members. Good book - he spends about 15 or so pages trying to define what makes a cult a cult, and even he admits it's all a matter of opinion. There is a list of what constitutes a cult as provided by the Cult Information Centre, if you're interested.

BTW, read on a mailing list today that al Qaeda can be described as a cult.
 
Is there a record anywhere of David Koresh declaring himself divine, or did his group just call him that?

Lacking anything else relevant to say, damn, I dig biker babes.
 
Well, if you'll be patient, I shall go and make a latte and look that one up in a few tomes.

As to digging biker babes, how deep do you dig them?;)
 
The point is, that christianity started out as an offshoot of judaism, much like the Branch Davidians, Jehova's Witnesses, Mormons, Moonies, or most any other cult today did from christianity. There was a charismatic leader, whether he claimed to be divine or not is irrelevant. He didn't deny it, certainly. Just because it has lasted a long time shouldn't disqualify it from being a cult. Otherwise 'successful cult' would be an oxymoron.


How deep do I dig them? Isn't that what private messages are for ?:eek!!!!:
 
Hmm, as much as I disagree/dislike/whatever religion, Christianity for me isn't a cult, but...

Helen said:
BTW, read on a mailing list today that al Qaeda can be described as a cult.
Click to expand...

...I knew my explanation wasn't good enough ;) and that's a great example of what I was trying to say!

Hmm Biker Babes, getting a lil OT isn't it? :p

NN!
 
Just because a group is labelled a cult doesn't of course mean it's a Christian cult. And cults have been around a looonnngg time. Cults, Sects, New Religious Movements, Alternative Religions - I would say the definition would vary from person to person. Well, obviously we've already proved that.

Cult Information Centre defines a cult as :

a group having all the following five characteristics :
1. It uses psychological coercion to recruit and indoctrinate potential members.
2. It forms an elitist totalitarian society.
3. Its founder leader is self-appointed, dogmatic, messianic, not accountable and has charisma.
4. It believes 'the end justifies the means' in order to solicit funds or recruit people.
5. Its wealth does not benefit its members or society.

Anti cultists sometimes explain the definition of cult as a group that uses deception in their recruitment techniques and some form of mind control over their members; they say their aim is not spiritual, that many cults have nothing to do with religion, but everything to do with power, control and money.

These 'empowerment' courses for managerial types can be described as cults. Some former 'members' state that the methods employed by the course organisers is basically the same as that of 'religious' leaders - you know, you pay your money and you get this knowledge of how to play to the board, but lo and behold, six months later there's a new and improved method of playing to a bigger board and get better promotion. And so on and so forth.

So really, cults don't have to have anything to do with religion, even if they pretend to.

But not the Scientologists. Oh no. Lovely bunch of people. Mmmm...Dianetics....makes perfect sense to me.......

Maybe judicial use of the word 'allegedly' should be employed when speaking of particular groups? I can't afford a law suit.:p
 
So it's all a matter of personal opinion then. That's a relief. Every thread on the board can now be closed.
 
protochicken said:
So it's all a matter of personal opinion then. That's a relief. Every thread on the board can now be closed.
Click to expand...
Agree with first sentence, Disagree with last.

One could define religions as cults with more than 'so many' members.

Of a given number of cults/religions at time T, those that are still around a few hundred years later call themselves religions.

They are all IMHO unjustified belief systems which originated with a charismatic leader and, if they continue after the leader's death, depend on memories/anecdotes of the leader.
 
No need to get your knickers in a twist.

It's a broad subject, simply because what I mean by Cult/Religion isn't what you may mean, which in turn won't be like anyone elses. Doesn't mean we can't talk about it, it just means we need to establish some kind of common ground. It would be easier, for example, to talk about specific religions/cults/sects/ whatever.

Anyway, is it me or is there an awful lot of religious type threads going on at the moment? How about debating the old 'number of angels dancing on the head of a pin' routine?
 
Are you sure there's only one Protochicken, because you sure seem to get around. Seems like every thread I look at, there you are! You must have a doppelganger around.

So... you reckon 42? But what if they're jiving? Then you could estimate that approximately half of them would be in the air, so not technically on the head of the pin. A conservative estimate would be a third of them, then. So - are you saying 42 in total, or that at any given point 14 aren't technically standing on the pin head, and....I've got to stop now, I've gone light headed.

If you want me, I'll be in a dark room with a cold compress on my brow......
 
Helen said:
Cult Information Centre defines a cult as :

a group having all the following five characteristics :
1. It uses psychological coercion to recruit and indoctrinate potential members.
2. It forms an elitist totalitarian society.
3. Its founder leader is self-appointed, dogmatic, messianic, not accountable and has charisma.
4. It believes 'the end justifies the means' in order to solicit funds or recruit people.
5. Its wealth does not benefit its members or society.
Click to expand...
:eek!!!!:That sounds like every RPG club and society that I've ever been a memeber of... :eek: It could even be twisted to fit us lot here.

But not the Scientologists. Oh no. Lovely bunch of people. Mmmm...Dianetics....makes perfect sense to me.......

Maybe judicial use of the word 'allegedly' should be employed when speaking of particular groups? I can't afford a law suit.:p
Click to expand...


Ah, let "Them" litigate. I have nothing of value, it would cost them more in legal fees then they could possible ever get from me. Alternatly if we all made an indentical statement that could be construed as offending them then they coulld try sueing all 778 of us. :D What mad japes.

Personally I think that any offically recognised church should be forbidden from litigating, how can we engage in religious and theological debate if we have to tread lightly for fear of causing offense? I think that any alleged church that litigates on a regular basis is not worthy of the title.

So although alleged the blatently Church of Scientology isn't a cult, isn't it interesting to note that whenever cults are discussed Dianetics is brought up?

I've heard it alleged that old L Ron was once heard to say that the way to make money would be to start a religion... anyone up for trying? :D

Niles "He's not the messiah; he's a very naughty boy" Calder
 
Yep, ol' L. Ron was supposed to have said that, paraphrasing George Orwell (althought I doubt the {alleged} prat knew who the hell George Orwell was - allegedly). Quite a fascinating career he's supposed to have had - supposed to have been a Commodore on top secret assignments from the Navy, although they have no record of him. Of course, it's all a foul slur intended to drag the Commodore's name through the dirt. And the stories about the nubile young female neophytes aboard his yacht - more foul slanders.

Ohhh I love foul slanders!:)
 
The thing that gets me with old Ron H. is that he has been suposed to be dead for a number of years, but those crap SF books of his were still being turned out.

Was it a case of ghost writing, or a ghost writer?

On the subject of cult & religion. A religion is what YOU belive in, a cult is what the REST belive in.

Likewise, you have faith & belief, they have superstition!!!!
 
protochicken said:
What's the difference between a religion and a cult anyway?
Click to expand...
I think the answer for this can be reducced to one word, ;)

POPULARITY

Wm.:)
 
Helen, I figured all you brits would get a Doug Adams reference, biker babe or no.
 
protochicken said:
Helen, I figured all you brits would get a Doug Adams reference, biker babe or no.
Click to expand...

Ah HA! Yep, I did notice it, but in a truly Fortean fashion, forgot about it again until you posted the above reminder. Doh!

Actually, I was thinking more along the lines of Pratchett/Gaiman's 'one as long as its the gavotte' or something like that from Good Omens.

Please don't let this momentarily lapse into abject stupidity put you off biker babes!:D
 
Niles Calder said:
:eek!!!!:That sounds like every RPG club and society that I've ever been a memeber of... :eek:
Click to expand...

You know roleplayers with charisma? I'm amazed.

Of course I suppose it depends on your definition of charisma. for most roleplayers that would probably be something like 'No BO and combs his beard occasionally'.

Cujo
(OK I'm joking.....a bit)
 
CULT.
System of religious worship esp. as expressed in ceremonies; devotion or homage to person or thing. Oxford concise.
Doesn't this describe Chritianity.
 
Beware, M'sieur Younger, you will be excommunicated or worse by the Inquisition.

But I suspect you won't care...!
 
I would say that the diference between a Cult and a Religion isn't popularity, it's time. A Religion is a Cult that's lasted more than 100 years. A Cult is a temporary thing, a religion is something that's here for the long haul.

Cujo
 
I can see why time could be seen as the diference but with out popularity you don`t get longevity, also lt is if it does not have many members it will not attaine mainstream acceptance so remains a cult and not a religion.

Wm.
 
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