Dune: Your Views

[Peripart]

Here's my dilemma.

Some time back I bought a set of the six Dune novels by Frank Herbert (as opposed to the ones by Jane Austen, obviously), and I've been working my way through them. Slowly. Very slowly. In fact, if I have a choice of reading matter, I'll probably end up reading something else.

My problem is, I've read and heard that these books are classics of the genre, and I love most SF, be it mainstream or a bit different. In fact, I'll read most things, but (and I'll have to say IMHO, to slightly reduce the inevitable flak that's headed my way) I've come to the conclusion that they're utter rubbish. I'm trying hard to get into them, in fact I'm now halfway through the sixth, and thank goodness, final one, but they just haven't grabbed me like I thought they would.

So here's my opinion. They're not science fiction, since there's far more about various mystical sisterhoods than there is about science. There're not very exciting. Characters come and go and I lose track of who's who and what's what. Apart from a few genuinely interesting passages where I really wanted to know what happened next, the whole series has been bogged down with political or philosophical dialogue. I can't pin them down at all, in fact.

Please advise me. What am I missing? What is it about these books that makes people consider them classics? Please reassure me that I'm missing something, and convince me to read the last 200 pages. Or did Brian Herbert just write a huge shaggy dog story?

 

[Mighty_Emperor]

Now this'll teach me to vote before reading the thread

I thought the first book was pretty good (and I loved the film) but the series got increasingly dull and I picked up the later ones secondhand but could never get up the will to read them.

 

[GNC]

I read the first novel and it bored me to tears. Can't even really remember what happens in it now.

 

[PeniG]

Tolstoy didn't like Shakespeare.

You're under no obligation to like something just because it's a classic. Your not liking something doesn't make it not a classic.

Life is too short to waste time reading stuff you don't like out of a sense of obligation. Go find something you like.

One of my books, maybe. But I don't write SF (unless you consider time travel an essentially SF motif; I always treat it as fantasy).

 

[Pietro_Mercurios]

I quite enjoyed the first three. They're a bit Ruritanian Romance, 19th Century Authoritarianism. Frank Herbert did explore Messianism fairly thoroughly. They read like SciFi, Grand Ol' Opre style.

It's all allegory and metaphor folks. 'Spice' is obviously a sublimation of Saudi crude and Afghani black.

Yes?

 

[andy_just_andy]

The first novel is a great book, a real classic. The rest should be avoided. And the movie is just plain strange.

 

[Brown_Forever]

My suggestion to anyone would be to give them a go, Peri. Not everyone's cup of tea - has been described before now, and a little inaccurately, as The Godfather in space. Certainly worth having a crack at the first one and seeing how you get on. I read most of them when in my late teens and thoroughly enjoyed them at the time. Like LOTR I have never got round to re-reading them although I still remember them with a great deal of affection. It is probably fair to say that the franchise ran out of steam in the later books, though.

The David Lynch movie is one of my favourites - visually sumptious, and a very creditable attempt at a story I had considered to be almost unfilmable. There again, I came to the film having already read the books*. Have to say that I disagreed somewhat with the depiction of House Harkonnen - would have thought that a bloodline that close to producing the Kwisatz Haderach would have conducted themselves with a bit more gravitas than the amusing pantomime villains they were presented as. A bit too much horrid laughter and messy eating, I thought. The reason it bombed at the box office was, I think, largely due to the brave way in which Lynch stuck as faithfully as was practical to the story, documenting the horrible dehumanised future that Herbert visualised, without trying to inject "kiddie value" in the form of cute talking robots, and cuddly creatures a la Star Wars.

Mind you, it would have been nice to see Jar Jar Binks trying to take on a platoon of Sardaukar....

Hardly family viewing, but I like my science fiction dark, me!

Concerning the more recent mini series, I must confess I haven't seen it. Nor have I read any of the Brian Herbert prequels. Pay day on Tuesday, so perhaps I will indulge a lingering curiosity about them.

Finally, the small amount I have heard about the abortive attempt to film it in the 1970s sounds most interesting. Allegedly a Pink Floyd soundtrack was planned, with Salvador Dali cast as Shaddam IV - kinky!

I was not here, I did not say this.

PB (House Isatip)

* I have wondered what would have happened if I'd seen the film before reading the books: A minor regret of mine is having watched the 1999 BBC production of Gormenghast before reading the book. Have since attempted to read it, but have made little progress.

 

[sunsplash1]

I must not fear (etc etc)...

As a Herbert scholar and on the one hand, I'd say persevere. On the other hand PeniG is right, life is too short. On the third hand, the classic thing is a real bind, putting the reader off from the word go. Read for pleasure maybe, and ignore the classic tag?

Finally, is there nothing redeeming about what you are reading?

Maud Dib!

 

[rynner2]

The first novel is a great book, a real classic. The rest should be avoided.

I'm with Andy on this.

Also I realise that at my time of life I don't have the time left to read everything I want to read, let alone things I feel I ought to read, so if something doesn't grab my interest after a few pages, I set it aside and move on to something else.

 

[Graylien]

They're not science fiction, since there's far more about various mystical sisterhoods than there is about science...

They're certainly not science fiction in the Arthur C Clarke/Isaac Asimov sense of the term. (But then the same could be about the works of Ray Bradbury, Harlan Ellison, Brian Aldiss or Michael Moorcock. ) They're not quite fantasy eithier, since they don't deal in magic or mythical beings. So, what are they?

 

[Jerry_B]

Well, one term is 'Space Opera'...

 

[Timble2]

The first book is a classic. But he should have stopped after Children of Dune when the law of diminishing returns set in. I really don't see the point of the prequels (except to milk more money from the franchise).

 

[gerardwilkie]

I think the book is a classic as well , but every time I read it , I read another level into the book , which adds depth , but part of me feeel taht no matter how much I enjoy reading it , I will never really understand what it was all really about.

 

[Brown_Forever]

Well, one term is 'Space Opera'...

In my mind 'Space Opera' is something of a pejorative term for the, shall we say, less original end of the SF market (examples intentionally not cited ). The Dune novels can certainly be criticised on a number of levels - bloated, slow-moving, obscure, devalued by unnecessary sequels etc - but not, I think, for the originality and epic sweep of the setting and backstory, and the quality of Herbert's ideas.

I wouldn't want to get into the pissing match about what is or isn't science fiction: Herbert presents us with a vision of the far future in which there is little science as we'd understand it, and lots of mysticism. This notion is made internally consistent by the plot device of the Butlerian Jihad, and the drive thereafter to develop mental and physical powers, rather than becoming once again reliant, and ultimately enslaved, by machines.

There also appears to be an allegorical component, and I'd commend the WikiPedia entries, which cover this aspect far better than I could.

My take would therefore be that as a work of imaginative fiction - science or otherwise - Dune and its early sequels is a fine effort, and one that has given me a lot of pleasure.

PB

 

[Peripart]

Thanks for your feedback, one and all, and I'm glad to see that we're not going to fall out over a difference of opinion!

I think I agree with the idea of diminishing returns from reading each successive novel. As I say, I'm on the sixth at the moment, but have probably read at least three other books since looking at Dune. At the moment, for instance, I'm reading "Blood of Angels" by Michael Marshall, which is proving a waste of money for quite different reasons: it's such a gripping page-turner that I'll finish it in a couple of days at most (although you'd have to read his previous two in the series to be totally absorbed).

Anyway, I think I'll probably finish the last book in Herbert's "classic" series out of sheer bloody-mindedness, but only when there's nothing better on the bedside table. Thanks again for your views; at least I'm reassured that I'm not failing to appreciate something that the whole world regards as a work of genius.

 

[PeniG]

Literary genres are categories like any other - i.e., convenient mental constructs, not independent objective realities. All genres overlap eachother at some point. And I do mean all, though some overlap more readily than others. (I'm presently revising my Happy Family Serial Killer story, which is functionally combines the teen domestic novel with YA thriller, and I'm having worse fits than usual trying to fight my way through to the bright shining perfect story in my head. But I KNOW it's doable.) Using a genre label as a guide to taste is an iffy proposition, at best, as anyone who's gotten in the middle of an argument about hard vs. soft SF at a con should know. The illusion of reaching the unattainable goal of internal consistency can only be maintained by either impossibly convoluted definition or ny blithely ignoring facts. Many "hard SF" fans love the Lensmen series, for example - and hard SF it's not, by any meaningful definition. Nor does it need to be.

Possibly some people use the term "space opera" pejoratively, but some people outside the fandom use the term "science fiction" pejoratively, too. My single favorite SF series is Lois McMaster Bujold's Miles Vorkosigan, and space opera is the only term that describes that adequately, so I use it. There's good space opera and bad space opera, and Sturgeon's Law applies, as does Griffin's Corrollary. (Sturgeon's Law: 90% of everything is crud. Griffin's Corrollary: The constitution of the 10% non-crud varies from person to person.)

Keep trying new things and re-read what you like. It's a policy that serves me well.

 

[sunsplash1]

I like the category Speculative Fiction. It's what I do, after all.

 

[ignatiusII]

I rather enjoyed the first novel, was less than enthralled by the second, and stopped buying after the third. One shouldn't feel straitjacketed into having to enjoy something, simply because it is reputed to be a "classic" anything.

As an aside, I was significantly underwhelmed by the David Lynch film production, but after having seen the recent Sci-Fi Channel redux...well, it certainly causes one to be more appreciative of the particular (and peculiar) charms of the Lynch version.

 

[feen5]

I havn't read any of the Dune seris but i think there is a parallel with the Robert Jorden 'Wheel of Time' books. I really enjoyed the first 3 or 4 of the seris but it just seems to be going on and on with no possible sign of an ending. I struggled up to book 7 but gave up after that i don't even know how far they have got now (i thinks its book 10). Can anyone tell me if its worth my while continuing bearing in mind that i will probably have to re read the previous books to reaquaint myself with the story.

 

[giantrobot1]

Personally, I love the books. I think the universe that Herbert's come up with is really quite interesting, especially the notions that the future won't be full of computers and that it won't be a super liberal Star Trek type boring utopia.

 

[sunsplash1]

Personally, I love the books. I think the universe that Herbert's come up with is really quite interesting, especially the notions that the future won't be full of computers and that it won't be a super liberal Star Trek type boring utopia.

Crikey! Like that was every going to happen...
:?

 

[Mighty_Emperor]

Although I mentioned it in another thread its worht mentioning here - free Dune DVD in the Observer on Sunday. They even have a page promoting it with video:

www.changeyoursunday.co.uk/dune/

 

[Steve_Dewey]

I would just like to join with (one of) the general consensus(es) here - I feel Dune is a classic, Dune Messiah is good, and God Emperor OK. The next two, the names of which escape me (Chapter House and.... oh, something), weren't bad, and I've certainly read worse SF in my time. As to the prequels, I'm not going to bother. I do reread the first three from time to time, and might even make time to reread the other two at some point in my life.

 

[ghostdog19]

I fell asleep on the second page of the first book. I tried reading it again about ten years later, but, in an almost fortean manner, fell asleep again at exactly the same point.

It's remarkable really. It's the only book that's ever had this sort of a hold over me. I just CANNOT stay awake long enough to read the rest of the book. I have even dreamed that I'd carried on reading and dreamed up one heck of a story, but Harrison Ford was in it, and I'm quite certain that's not how the book turns out.

 

[Peripart]

Crap Dune joke alert!

It just occurred to me to wonder: were the Bene Gesserit the original Spice Girls?

I'll get my coat.

 

[ghostdog19]

Crap Dune joke alert!

It just occurred to me to wonder: were the Bene Gesserit the original Spice Girls?

I'll get my coat.

Gerri Haliwell and Victoria Beckham are both Frank Herbert fans. They've read all the books.

I'm not lying, honest.

 

[fquake]

Crap Dune joke alert!

It just occurred to me to wonder: were the Bene Gesserit the original Spice Girls?

I'll get my coat.

I always like to say, when someone comments that 'Variety is the spice of life,' that, actually I always thought that Melange was.

You'd be suprised just how many blank looks this gets...

 

[Anome]

Crap Dune joke alert!

It just occurred to me to wonder: were the Bene Gesserit the original Spice Girls?

I'll get my coat.

Gerri Haliwell and Victoria Beckham are both Frank Herbert fans. They've read all the books.

I'm not lying, honest.

I don't believe you.

Victoria can read? Sorry just not credible.

 

[sunsplash1]

Gerri and Vicci part of the Sistehood, how's that work? With Voices like theirs?

 

[Onix_Martinez]

I loved the first book and quite liked the next two. And then I lost interest. I just got too... convoluted. As for the movie, I love it and I see it every chance I have, much to my wife's dismay, since she's against anythng that resembles Sci-Fi. I am tempted to watch it with Iñaki, since he loves space and rockets, and has an increasing interest in monsters.

Anyway, I like the picture of a religion centered society, with mankind and a sense of spirituality as the medular point of the empirial culture, and the way science and religio touch and communicate with each other. Someone once asked Herbert if he wanted to create a religion, probably confusing him with Hubbard.

By the way, I liked "The Green Brain" more than the Dune books. Anybody else with me?