ET and the Vatican

[rynner2]

The Vatican joins the search for alien life
The Vatican's Pontifical Academy of Sciences is holding its first ever conference on alien life, the discovery of which would have profound implications for the Catholic Church.
By Tom Chivers
Published: 10:20AM GMT 10 Nov 2009

The Pontifical Academy of Sciences is holding a conference on astrobiology, the study of life beyond Earth, with scientists and religious leaders gathering in Rome this week.

For centuries, theologians have argued over what the existence of life elsewhere in the universe would mean for the Church: at least since Giordano Bruno, an Italian monk, was put to death by the Inquisition in 1600 for claiming that other worlds exist.

Among other things, extremely alien-looking aliens would be hard to fit with the idea that God “made man in his own image”.

Furthermore, Jesus Christ’s role as saviour would be confused: would other worlds have their own, tentacled Christ-figures, or would Earth’s Christ be universal?

However, just as the Church eventually made accommodations after Copernicus and Galileo showed that the Earth was not the centre of the universe, and when it belatedly accepted the truth of Darwin's theory of evolution, Catholic leaders say that alien life can be aligned with the Bible’s teachings.

Father Jose Funes, a Jesuit astronomer at the Vatican Observatory and one of the organisers of the conference, said: "As a multiplicity of creatures exists on Earth, so there could be other beings, also intelligent, created by God.

"This does not conflict with our faith, because we cannot put limits on the creative freedom of God."

Not everyone agrees. Paul Davies, a theoretical physicist and author of The Goldilocks Enigma, told The Washington Post that the threat to Christianity is "being downplayed" by Church leaders. He said: "I think the discovery of a second genesis would be of enormous spiritual significance.

"The real threat would come from the discovery of extraterrestrial intelligence, because if there are beings elsewhere in the universe, then Christians, they're in this horrible bind.

"They believe that God became incarnate in the form of Jesus Christ in order to save humankind, not dolphins or chimpanzees or little green men on other planets."

The Academy conference will include presentations from scientists – by no means all of them Christians – on the discovery of planets outside our solar system, the geological record of early life on Earth, how life might have started on Earth, and whether “alien” life of a different biochemistry to our own might exist here without our knowing, among many other things.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/spac ... -life.html

 

[PeniG]

So what authority does a theoretical physicist have to say how other people should interpret their religious works?

Science and religion aren't the same thing and they can't be argued in the same terms. The Vatican has a legitimate interest in mediating between the two worlds for the benefit of their parishioners; it's up to those parishioners to be convinced by the official line, or not. Unless Mr. Davis is a theoretical physicist and also a Catholic, what the pope has to say on this topic isn't really a lot of his business.

Of course, scientists have limited control over which of them journalists approach for quotes, and none over which part of the interview gets cut out. He may well have said "It's not my business because I'm not Catholic, but -" A dramatic statement like "If we find alien life I'll have to give up being Catholic because -" would have been highlighted, I'm sure.

Universities should have a required course, "Talking to Journalists 101," teaching basic skills like "why to speak," "when to shut up," "how to decrease the odds of being made to look like a jerk," and so on.

 

[MsPix]

Christ in the Universe
By Alice Meynell (b. 1847)

WITH this ambiguous earth
His dealings have been told us. These abide:
The signal to a maid, the human birth,
The lesson, and the young Man crucified.

But not a star of all
The innumerable host of stars has heard
How He administered this terrestrial ball.
Our race have kept their Lord’s entrusted Word.

Of His earth-visiting feet
None knows the secret, cherished, perilous,
The terrible, shamefast, frightened, whispered, sweet,
Heart-shattering secret of His way with us.

No planet knows that this
Our wayside planet, carrying land and wave,
Love and life multiplied, and pain and bliss,
Bears, as chief treasure, one forsaken grave.

Nor, in our little day,
May His devices with the heavens be guessed,
His pilgrimage to thread the Milky Way
Or His bestowals there be manifest.

But in the eternities,
Doubtless we shall compare together, hear
A million alien Gospels, in what guise
He trod the Pleiades, the Lyre, the Bear.

O, be prepared, my soul!
To read the inconceivable, to scan
The myriad forms of God those stars unroll
When, in our turn, we show to them a Man.

 

[rjmrjmrjm]

Among other things, extremely alien-looking aliens would be hard to fit with the idea that God “made man in his own image”.

Err... no it wouldn't. You might as well say that black and asian people can't possibly be created by God (as we know he's a big ol' whitey with a huge beard).

Furthermore, Jesus Christ’s role as saviour would be confused: would other worlds have their own, tentacled Christ-figures, or would Earth’s Christ be universal?

Oy Vey! I don't really want to get into the theology of this basically I can see it as this: Man was fallen so needed a Savior - in the form of a man. If the aliens that God created were fallen then they would need a savior - probably in their form.

So...

God is Universal Ruler

Christ being God is Universal Ruler

but

Jesus Christ the man, being the Savior of mankind is the Savior of simply Mankind.

That is not to say he cannot also be the savior of the Alpha Centaurians - if indeed they need saving at all.

...when it belatedly accepted the truth of Darwin's theory of evolution, Catholic leaders say that alien life can be aligned with the Bible’s teachings.

What does belatedly mean in this case? The Roman Catholic Church has never been known for the whip-crack dynamism of its policy changes. And compared to some Christian groups the RC Church is positively progressive in comparison.

Not everyone agrees. Paul Davies, a theoretical physicist and author of The Goldilocks Enigma, told The Washington Post that the threat to Christianity is "being downplayed" by Church leaders. He said: "I think the discovery of a second genesis would be of enormous spiritual significance.

See PeniGs post above.


Sorry, due to the quote system it looks like this is a criticism of Rynner, it isn't it's a criticism of the journalist.

 

[rynner2]

Sorry, due to the quote system it looks like this is a criticism of Rynner, it isn't it's a criticism of the journalist.

Glad about that, I was beginning to get paranoid...!

But my attitude to a 'Saviour' has long been very critical. The RC church invents (or inherits from the Jews) the notion of Original Sin, because then it can mediate between us and the one who will 'save' us.

One day I fervently hope that all organised religion will collapse under the weight of its inherent illogicality, false history, and circular reasoning. I think we are already seeing the start of this, with church attendances falling across many countries, even once-staunch Catholic ones. If the discovery of aliens or a 'second genesis' hastens this process, then Man will have taken another step into the wider universe.

 

[rynner2]

Does Jesus save aliens?

Four hundred years after Renaissance philosopher Giordano Bruno was burnt at the stake for his belief in the "plurality of worlds" (aliens), scientists and religious leaders gathered this week at a seemingly more open-minded Vatican for a conference on astrobiology (aliens).

The meeting focussed on current science, rather than the theological quandaries thrown up by the possibilty of other life forms beyond this planet. But that hasn't stopped debate spilling over outside the conference.

Yesterday I spoke to Paul Davies, a cosmologist from Arizona State University, just after he addressed the conference. In his view, the possibility of other civilisations - potentially more intelligent than our own - puts Christians “in a real bind”. Specifically, he says that nobody's satisfactorily addressed the question of whether aliens get saved. “The Catholic church offers a very species specific brand of salvation. Noone says that Jesus came to save the dolphins and certainly not little green men,” he said.

The possibility of extraterrestrial life does not pose the same problems for Eastern religions, which tend to be less Earth-centric, or Islam, which speaks explicitly of life beyond Earth, he said.

The Vatican does not have an official position on alien life forms, but a number of its scientists have spoken out on the issue. Father Jose Funes, director of the Vatican Observatory told the Vatican newspaper, L’Osservatore Romano, that the possibility of “brother extraterrestrials” was not incompatible with Catholic theology.

William Stroeger, an astrophysicist at the Vatican Observatory Research Group and a Jesuit priest, agreed: “There might be fundamentalists for whom the two things are incompatible but mainline congregations - Roman Catholics, Lutherans, Presbyterians, Methodists - would not have a problem with this,” he said.

Stroeger pointed out that the Catechism introduced after the second Vatican council states that there can be no conflict between science and religion. “If there’s a contradiction it means that we haven’t understood or interpreted one of them correctly,” he said.

This may be the case, but I agree with Davies that this isn't a trivial issue for theologists. Giggle factor aside, the question of whether Jesus would save aliens goes right to the heart of Christian beliefs. If you believe that "intelligent life" equals having a soul, then you have to ask where you'd draw the line. If scientists found dolphins on a distant planet, they would be mad with excitement at having found something so smart. But what would theologians make of them?

Stroeger conceded that the discovery of intelligent life elsewhere in the Universe would pose a challenge, but said that it would not be insurmountable. “There are some difficult issues to resolve, such as whether Jesus as saviour is the one who saves everyone in the Universe or if there are other equivalent salvation events that take place elsewhere in the Universe,” he said.

I was left feeling slightly mind-boggled at how you would even begin to answer such a question.

http://timesonline.typepad.com/science/ ... liens.html

 

[PeniG]

CS Lewis addressed this issue years ago in his Space Trilogy. Assuming that the Biblical model of creation is true, there is no reason to suppose that all planets with intelligent life fell. The aliens could all be living in pre-lapsarian bliss, for all we know. In the 18th and 19th centuries, the notion that all the stars were circled by inhabitable and inhabited words, because otherwise they weren't useful and God wouldn't create useless things, was common and taught in popular astronomy books intended for a Western (and assumed Christian) audience, as part of the whole "discovering God's glory through science" paradigm. So this is a straw man and not a very well-informed one at that. I don't see the point.

The mistake is to assume that any particular interpretation of theology is the only possible one and that this or that circumstance arising in the real world and creating problems for that interpretation invalidates the whole system. An individual believer may indeed be that rigid - I've known plenty who are - but a system that fragile doesn't survive long in the wild. Christianity has survived a long time because its framework is flexible enough to incorporate all sorts of challenging data inside a willing mind.

 

[Timble2]

Jame Blish's A Case of Conscience adresses the issue too. In that a Jesuit priest finds a planet where there never was a fall...apparently. IIRC he starts to realise that the world is the creation of the Devil to undermine Christian doctrine.

CS Lewis's Cosmic Trilogy, yes, whatever was in his pipe, I suspect it wasn't tobacco...

 

[PeniG]

Oh, I'm positive it was tobacco! For one thing, it's a myth that we need artificial aid to bring out the bizarre imagery in our heads - there are plenty of ways to stimulate those connections in the brain - and for another, tobacco is, in its natural form, a strong narcotic. Even cigarette smokers of modern mild, adulterated tobacco will get a buzz off the stuff, and the pure leaf can have extraordinary effects. There's a good solid reason why tobacco was the native American ritual drug of choice throughout the ages, with peyote a Johnny-come-lately in the field outside of a particular region.

Hmmm...I think this thread is drifting. Should we head in for shore now or see where the current takes us?

 

[DougalLongfoot]

And of course CS Lewis' Space Trilogy was a result of a challenge between him and JRR Tolkien, Lewis was to write a space adventure and Tolkien was to write a time travel story (never finished, but can be found in Christopher Tolkien's History of Middle Earth series).

I find it interesting that Davies thinks ET would pose problems for Christianity, but not for "Eastern Religions". Where does he think Christianity originated?

 

[feen5]

So what authority does a theoretical physicist have to say how other people should interpret their religious works?

Of course, scientists have limited control over which of them journalists approach for quotes, and none over which part of the interview gets cut out. He may well have said "It's not my business because I'm not Catholic, but -" A dramatic statement like "If we find alien life I'll have to give up being Catholic because -" would have been highlighted, I'm sure.

Universities should have a required course, "Talking to Journalists 101," teaching basic skills like "why to speak," "when to shut up," "how to decrease the odds of being made to look like a jerk," and so on.

You have kind of answered your own question there. You don't know how the questions and answers from the interview were framed or reported so i think your being a bit harsh on this particular theoretical physicist.

And i would also suggest that he has as much authority as anyone to comment on how people interpret their religious works. One of the big things i remember from my catholic upbringing is the god giving us free will thing.

Part of this suggests to me that you can say what you like about anything it doesn't mean that anyone else has to listen or care about whats being said. I'm not having a go i'm just saying that if he was asked his opinion and gave his answers he doesn't really deserve to be called a jerk for it.

I think that if there is a God he/she/it is going to be a hell of a lot more complicated and mysterious than anyone can understand.

 

[Zilch5]

Another article the touches on Giordano Bruno:

'Alien Jesus': The Pre-Modern History of Outer Space

In many ways, the history of science is the history of humans getting progressively more freaked out by their own cosmic insignificance. Most cultures' origin stories tend to be about a plucky band of survivors overcoming the odds and becoming the chosen people — or, at least, the people who really matter. Understandings of humanity’s place in nature tended to follow the same pattern: whether we’re being made out of corn by the gods of the Popul Vuh so we can “keep the days” or being given command over all the other animals by Yahweh, we like to see ourselves as being kind of a big deal in the grand scheme of things.

Giordano Bruno, a renegade sixteenth-century monk from the Kingdom of Naples, stands out as a true eccentric in this regard. Even today, his ideas sound slightly crazy: just last spring, in fact, I befuddled a lunch table of distinguished scholars at the Huntington Library by inadvisedly bringing up Bruno’s “alien Jesus” theory.

Let me explain.

In his 1584 book On the Infinite Universe and Worlds, Bruno theorized that

there is a single general space, a single vast immensity which we may freely call Void; in it are innumerable globes like this one on which we live and grow. This space we declare to be infinite… In it are an infinity of worlds of the same kind as our own.

This was controversial, but it wasn’t grounds for being declared a heretic. However, Bruno crossed a line when he followed his argument to its logical conclusion: if there are an infinity of worlds, and if some worlds have sentient beings created by God, then wouldn’t these planets also need to be saved by the personification of God? By, well, alien Jesuses? (Bruno, its important to remember, wasn’t an atheist—just a highly unconventional Christian).

More at the link: http://www.theatlantic.com/technology/a ... ce/279982/

 

[ramonmercado]

Vid and images at link.

Is Alien Life Out There? Vatican Observatory Co-Hosts Science Conference in Arizona
By Megan Gannon, News Editor | March 16, 2014 10:00am ET
http://www.space.com/25060-vatican-obse ... rence.html

This artist's illustration represents the variety of planets being detected by NASA's Kepler spacecraft.

Pin It This artist's illustration represents the variety of planets being detected by NASA's Kepler spacecraft. Scientists now say that one in six stars hosts an Earth-size planet.
Credit: C. Pulliam & D. Aguilar (CfA)

Are we alone in the universe? The ultimate question of life beyond Earth and the solar system takes center stage in a science conference led by the Vatican Observatory and a University of Arizona this week.

Nearly 200 scientists are attending the conference, called "The Search for Life Beyond the Solar System: Exoplanets, Biosignature & Instruments," which runs from March 16 through 21 in Tucson, Ariz. The Vatican Observatory is co-hosting the conference with the University of Arizona's Steward Observatory.

"Finding life beyond Earth is one of the great challenges of modern science and we are excited to have the world leaders in this field together in Tucson," said event co-chair Daniel Apai, assistant professor of astronomy and planetary sciences at the UA Steward Observatory, in a statement. "But reaching such an ambitious goal takes planning and time. The goal of this meeting is to discuss how we can find life among the stars within the next two decades." [9 Exoplanets That Could Host Alien Life]

Rev. Paul Gabor of the Vatican Observatory, the conference's other co-chair, added that scientists will give more than 160 research presentations during this week's conference.

According to the organizers, the conference will cover the technical challenges of finding and imaging exoplanets and identifying biosignatures in the atmospheres of far-flung worlds. Other presentations will discuss the study of life forms that live in extreme environments on Earth, which could be apt analogs for life on other planets.

Current Potentially Habitable Exoplanets

Pin It The Habitable Exoplanets Catalog now list a dozen object of interest as potentially habitable worlds with the addition of two planets, Gliese 667C e and f (Gliese 667C c was known since early 2012). Image released June 25, 2013.
Credit: PHL @ UPR AreciboView full size image

The conference is not open to the public, but NASA's Astrobiology Institute will broadcast a live feed of the sessions. You can learn more about the conference via its website: http://www.ebi2014.org/

 

[ramonmercado]

A bit broader than just the Vatican but I think this fits here.

Are the world's religions ready for ET?

In 1930, Albert Einstein was asked for his opinion about the possibility of life elsewhere in the universe. "Other beings, perhaps, but not men," he answered. Then he was asked whether science and religion conflict. "Not really, though it depends, of course, on your religious views."

Over the past 10 years, astronomers' new ability to detect planets orbiting other stars has taken this question out of the realm of philosophy, as it was for Einstein, and transformed it into something that scientists might soon be able to answer.
Realization that the nature of the debate about life on other worlds is about to fundamentally change led Vanderbilt Professor of Astronomy David Weintraub to begin thinking seriously about the question of how people will react to the discovery of life on other planets. He realized, as Einstein had observed, that people's reactions will be heavily influenced by their religious beliefs. So he decided to find out what the world's major religions have to say about the matter. The result is a book titled "Religions and Extraterrestrial Life" (Springer International Publishing) published this month.

"When I did a library search, I found only half a dozen books and they were all written about the question of extraterrestrial life and Christianity, and mostly about Roman Catholicism, so I decided to take a broader look," the astronomer said. As a result, his book describes what religious leaders and theologians have to say about extraterrestrial life in more than two dozen major religions, including Judaism, Roman Catholicism, the Eastern Orthodox churches, the Church of England and the Anglican Communion, several mainline Protestant sects, the Southern Baptist Convention and other evangelical and fundamentalist Christian denominations, the Religious Society of Friends (Quakers), Seventh Day Adventism and Jehovah's Witnesses, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints (Mormons), Islam and several major Asian religions including Hinduism, Buddhism and the Bahá'í Faith.
Discovery of Planets ...

Belief in Extraterrestrials Varies by Religion
55 percent of Atheists
44 percent of Muslims
37 percent of Jews
36 percent of Hindus
32 percent of Christians b....

Provided by Vanderbilt University
"Are the world's religions ready for ET?." September 30th, 2014.

http://phys.org/news/2014-09-world-religions-ready.html

 

[ramonmercado]

The recent discovery of an Earth twin has boosted chances there is intelligent life on other planets. But while Pope Francis's telescope scans the starlit skies, the Vatican is sceptical of ever meeting Mr. Spock.

On a leafy hilltop near the papal summer home of Castel Gandolfo sits the Vatican's Observatory, one of the oldest astronomical research institutions in the world, where planetary scientists mix the study of meteorites and the Big Bang theory with theology.

Boasting a prestigious research centre at the University of Arizona in the United States, the institute has never shied away from asking whether there could be life on other planets and is thrilled with the discovery of an "Earth 2.0".

Astronomers hunting for a planet like ours announced to huge excitement last week that they have found the closest match yet, Kepler 452b, which is circling its star at the same distance as our home orbits the Sun.

Around 60 percent larger than Earth, it sits squarely in the Goldilocks zone of its star, where life could exist because it is neither too hot nor too cold to support liquid water, according to the US space agency NASA.

The discovery "is great news", the Observatory's Argentine director Jose Funes told AFP, despite the fact that scientists suspect increasing energy from the planet's ageing sun might now be heating the surface and evaporating any oceans, making life difficult.

However, while "it is probable there was life and perhaps a form of intelligent life... I don't think we'll ever meet a Mr. Spock", he said.

http://phys.org/news/2015-07-vatican-sceptical-encounters-kind.html

 

[lordmongrove]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry...3a03586a?utm_hp_ref=ufo&kvcommref=mostpopular

No Martian Zombie Leper Christ then?

"The Rev. José Gabriel Funes, an astronomer who directs the observatory, said he's open to the possibility of extraterrestrial life and has been for quite some time. Funes finds no contradiction between Catholic theology and the belief in aliens. He has said in the past that humans shouldn't put limits on God's creative freedom. "

 

[eburacum]

However, Funes draws the line at the idea of an alien Jesus.
"The discovery of intelligent life does not mean there's another Jesus," Funes told AFP. "The incarnation of the son of God is a unique event in the history of humanity, of the universe."

The problem of a unique incarnation is more fundamental (in the Vatican's eyes) than the question of alien life. There is no contradiction in imagining that the universe is teeming with life, including intelligent life which can appreciate the glory of God's creation; but the incarnation of Jesus is supposed to be a unique event, which means that all these alien species cannot have been visited by the Son of God incarnate in order to save their souls. Only the Earth is special in that regard.

What does this mean for the souls of these myriad alien species? Are they all unsaved, destined to live in limbo or purgatory for the eternal afterlife, like the humans who lived before Jesus, or unbaptized babies? Or perhaps they have never fallen, so do not need saving.

C.S. Lewis, in his Cosmic Trilogy of books, imagines a universe in which only Earth has fallen from grace. and for this reason must be prevented from spreading its message of sin to the stars. Nowhere else in Lewis' universe has had a visit from a Saviour, simply because they do not need one - the aliens all live in an innocent 'unfallen' condition, and are one with God and the universe. Lewis argues against the expansion of humanity into space for this reason.

This argument also crops up in the George Pal movie Conquest of Space; the General in charge of the mission goes mad, and tries to sabotage the mission to prevent it from succeeding and spreading humanity's poison to the stars.

If that is the official position of the Vatican then they are utterly wrong. Either Jesus has, in a million forms, visited the other species in our universe to act as saviour, or (more likely) there is no salvation, and we all (aliens and humans alike) have to live with the consequences of our actions, not relying on divine intercession to 'forgive' us.

 

[Bigphoot2]

Pity the headline wasn't the other way round