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Ever been swayed into/out of belief/disbelief by anything?

tonyghidorah

Gone But Not Forgotten
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To go back to the Will Storr (yes I am currently his pimp!) yes, I have been made more a believer in the whole supernatural thing by his book. My question now is whether there are any single books or anecdotes or ideas out there that have made a person radically change their own views? If it means anything, this forum itself can convince and otherwise at the drop of a hat... which is a good thing, of course.
 
Like the White Queen, I can believe six impossible things before breakfast.

Which, curiously enough, is the title of a book,
Six Impossible Things Before Breakfast: The Evolutionary Origins of Belief
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Six-Impossible- ... 0571209203

"Synopsis

Why do 70 per cent of Americans believe in angels, and thousands more that they have been abducted by aliens? Why does every society around the world have a religious tradition of some sort? What makes people believe in things when all the evidence points to the contrary? Why do 13 per cent of British scientists touch wood?

In "Through the Looking Glass", the White Queen tells Alice that to believe in a wildly improbable fact she simply needs to 'draw a long breath and shut your eyes'. Alice finds this advice ridiculous. But don't almost all of us, at some time or another, engage in magical thinking? Professor Lewis Wolpert investigates the nature of belief and its causes. He looks at belief's psychological basis and its possible evolutionary origins in physical cause and effect.

How did toolmaking drive human evolution? Is it the lack of an explanation about fundamental questions which is truly intolerable? Are we born with an evolutionary propensity to believe in things that make us feel better?

Wolpert explores the different types of belief - including that of animals, of children, of the religious, and of those suffering from psychiatric disorders. And he asks whether it is possible to live without belief at all, or whether it is a necessary component of a functioning society."
 
I've seen many things that I would have difficulty believing if I'd heard of them second-hand.

Like, I once saw an Alsatian dog nick a bottle of sterilised milk off a doorstep, bite the metal cap off, spit it out, and carefully lift the bottle in its mouth and glug the lot in one.

Supernatural things though - I have seen how a refusal to believe in anything outside one's own philosophy in the face of evidence can mess a person's head up.

Although I don't have a problem accepting new ideas, seeing some of the weirdness that surrounded my family and especially my elder daughter over the years caused my first husband much stress.

He was a hard-headed science teacher and refused to believe in anything he couldn't read about in a textbook.

Being mind-read, dripped on by ectoplasm and rubbed against by a ghostly cat took its toll over the years and contributed to our marriage break-up.

Not a bad thing, as it turned out. ;)
 
Maybe you were psychically ousting him...! It was YOU!

You don't know the power of the dark side.
 
Well, I did use to believe there was some kind of odd creature lurking in the depths of Loch Ness. But I read some different stuff about it, which made me change my mind. I think now it is all mundane things interpreted badly, and that there is no Nessie.
 
Back in the early - to - mid 1990's, when I began working at Wright-Patterson AFB (a commonly cited repository for the Roswell alien remains) I started an extended review of books and other materials on the Roswell affair. The more I read the more I came to believe the bulk of the Roswell mythos emerged long after the actual event (e.g., Frank Edwards' 1950-something book which first conflated the debris story from Roswell with the alien bodies tale from Aztec).

When the Clinton administration opened the doors to available Roswell documentation and former CIA folks came forward to testify to the factuality of the 'barometric sensor balloon' angle, I pretty much transitioned over to skepticism.

I still think there are unexplained phenomena / things in our skies (heck - I've seen some of them myself! ...), and I don't claim to be entirely skeptical about UFO's in general. I've simply come to believe that the popular conglomeration we call Roswell is mostly myth, much of that is self-serving post hoc mythification, and the events of July 1947 are adequately / reasonably accounted for without extraordinary / extraterrestrial involvement.
 
rynner said:
Like the White Queen, I can believe six impossible things before breakfast.

Which, curiously enough, is the title of a book,
Six Impossible Things Before Breakfast: The Evolutionary Origins of Belief
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Six-Impossible- ... 0571209203

"Synopsis

But don't almost all of us, at some time or another, engage in magical thinking? "

No doubt, and a great deal more of the time than is suspected. This need to think magically is partly behind the prohibition on "graven" images: from image to idol worship is a very small step.
 
I've met two people who have 'seen' Nessie - one of them twice. Both are utterly convinced by what they saw. I think I believe them.
I think it's actually a ghost. I think we can make ghosts, sometimes. Tulpas, isn't it, the word?
 
A posting by Realpazza called 'a bizarre and nasty haunting' really shook me up, in this he mentioned the possibility of a Tulpa. I wish i could link to it :?
I beleive that this really happened according to him, although it seems that some do not.
I had to read it more than once to digest it all but it is really scary, and well written.
 
I think that reading the 'Illuminatus!' trilogy swayed me into non-belief and non-disbelief of everything at a fairly early age :D
 
Re: Ever been swayed into/out of belief/disbelief by anythin

tonyghidorah said:
My question now is whether there are any single books or anecdotes or ideas out there that have made a person radically change their own views? If it means anything, this forum itself can convince and otherwise at the drop of a hat... which is a good thing, of course.


They''ve Influenced maybe to change towards other Ideas but not swayed to Into disbelief.

I'd prefer to just keep open minded.
 
Hi Tony

Tony Wrote

My question now is whether there are any single books or anecdotes or ideas out there that have made a person radically change their own views?

I have recently read a few books that I believe could at the very least, alter the way a person my view the world, as we think we know it.

Those books are:-

Browne Sylvia, "Conversations with the Other Side ", Hay House, Sydney, 2002, ISBN 1-56170-718-X.

Buchanan Lyn, "The Seventh Sense", Paraview Pocket Books, New York, 2003, ISBN 0-7434-6268-8.

Kelleher Colm A. Ph.D., Knapp George, "Hunt for the Skinwalker", Paraview Pocket Books, Sydney, 2005, ISBN 978-1-4165-0521-1; & ISBN 1-4165-0521-0.

Roberts Jane, "How to Develop Your ESP Power", Pocket Books, New York, New York 1976, ISBN 0-671-55744-0.

Big Cats
 
Many times. In our own field, it's believing such things as Phantom Hitchhikers or Old Hags or giant Black Dogs with glowing red eyes to be purely folkloric until I read one too many eye-witesses accounts of each one of them.

But an even more interesting phenomenon is instantanteously changing one's mind about anything.

This has happened to me several times over the years and each time I've experienced what I can only describe as an "intense NON-headache" thay lasts for at least a week - a feeling that my head is hollow and re-filling with information or more correctly with re-orientations..

I once mentioned to a neurologist that it felt as though there were "gross physical changes" taking place throughout the entirety of my brain.

"There's a reason fot that," said the Doctor. "At times like that there are gross physical changes going on, since your whole brain is madly re-wiring itself."

This may, in fact, deserve a separate thread of its own.
 
Mr. Radio, do any of these rewiring sensations resemble having a PixiStik broken inside your head, and all the sugar rushing out?

No, it's a serious question, as I had this sensation periodically during the Year from Hell, when I was adjusting to a life-changing piece of new information that I would prefer not to have.

Speaking of which, congratulations on your ability to allow your brain the space in which to rewire itself! New learning can be resisted, and most people spend a lot of their lives doing so, to the great detriment of our society.
 
John Keel also really tripped me out. I don't know if that counts.
 
Xanatico said:
Well, I did use to believe there was some kind of odd creature lurking in the depths of Loch Ness. But I read some different stuff about it, which made me change my mind. I think now it is all mundane things interpreted badly, and that there is no Nessie.

That's basically my history also. But I do sometimes still toy witht he idea that Nessie is a Paranormal beastie, rather than Cryptozoological (as such) and is only present sometimes.
 
Peni, the main sensation was of my head being HOLLOW, of having no brain at all.

The two cases I remember best involved women I loved.

In the first case it was triggered by my (at that time) life-long opposition to welfare. But my friend informed me that had her family not been on welfare during her childhood that she would not be alive today. That caused an INSTANTANEOUS mental "stripping of gears," I can tell you.

As the set-up for the second case you have to realize that one of the reasons I never married was because I - quite honestly - didn't know what I'd do if my wife ever lost her breasts.

That changed INSTANTANEOUSLY when a woman I was extremely fond of informed me that she'd had a double massectomy. It simply and IMMEDIATELY became the least important thing in the world, except as it affected her own health.

This second experience was much more profound than the first, probably because it affected so many more internal resonances. ("The breast of a hill" and so on and on.)
 
Like I said on another thread, I think we can MAKE ghosts, and have 'made' nessie. This does not mean she isn't real, as made things ARE real, aren't they?
 
tonyghidorah said:
Like I said on another thread, I think we can MAKE ghosts, and have 'made' nessie. This does not mean she isn't real, as made things ARE real, aren't they?

Skeptics claim that the entire concept of the "Men in Black" was created by Albert K. Bender in 1952. If that's indeed the case Bender not only managed to single-handedly create a Jungian archtype but to seed it back through history.
 
Would this be the rationalist version of the sensation of epiphany people get when they are converted to Christianity, for example?
 
Xanatico said:
Well, I did use to believe there was some kind of odd creature lurking in the depths of Loch Ness. But I read some different stuff about it, which made me change my mind. I think now it is all mundane things interpreted badly, and that there is no Nessie.

Can you really say - in any real sense - that you believed in Nessie. In that first instance? Sounds a bit like you just liked the idea, or thought it possible.
 
I did not have "faith" in Nessie if that is what you mean. I found it likely that there was some kind of large unknown creature living in Loch Ness, though I didn´t have an exact idea in my head what it would look like. But then I realised when reading more on the subject that the chances of that being true were quite small.
 
OldTimeRadio said:
Skeptics claim that the entire concept of the "Men in Black" was created by Albert K. Bender in 1952. If that's indeed the case Bender not only managed to single-handedly create a Jungian archtype but to seed it back through history.

Well, it seems more likely that ufologists after Bender helped turn what he claimed he saw into a form of archetype (if only in the popular sense). Skeptics as well as ufologists were probably not all that aware that entities similar to MIBs are not new, especially WRT objects alleged to have come from the sky. There are cases from the phantom airship flaps of the late 19th/early20th century.
 
I just though of a more minor one, talking gorillas. You´ve probably heard the claims that gorillas are able to communicate with sign language. I guess I believed that. Then I saw a chat transcript with Coco, supposedly the most talented gorilla at that, and it was painfully obvious that the humans were just interpreting random signs to mean what they wanted.
 
staticgirl said:
Would this be the rationalist version of the sensation of epiphany people get when they are converted to Christianity, for example?

Some people report getting "fireworks" after giving their hearts to Jesus Christ, but just as many (or perhaps even more) do not experience anything of the sort. I fell into the latter category.
 
Jerry_B said:
Well, it seems more likely that ufologists after Bender helped turn what he claimed he saw into a form of archetype (if only in the popular sense)

That's precisely what I meant, so I don't see how that changes anything.

And why "only in the popular sense"?

Skeptics as well as ufologists were probably not all that aware that entities similar to MIBs are not new, especially WRT objects alleged to have come from the sky.

Any decent folklorist or cultural historian should have been aware of the "Black Men" reported from the mediaeval witch sabbats.

There are cases from the phantom airship flaps of the late 19th/early20th century.

Of course. That was the first modern clue.
 
Xanatico said:
I just though of a more minor one, talking gorillas. You´ve probably heard the claims that gorillas are able to communicate with sign language. I guess I believed that. Then I saw a chat transcript with Coco, supposedly the most talented gorilla at that, and it was painfully obvious that the humans were just interpreting random signs to mean what they wanted.

Can you please give us some links here? I'd thought that Coco's ability had been fairly well-established, so if this one's now been tossed onto the ash heap of scientific history I'd like to study that fact in greater detail.

"Water....bird" and all of that.
 
[tangent: The sensations of "non-headaches" and of pixie-sticks emptying in the brain remind me of when I physically feel mood swings (I'm bipolar) in my head - I call them "moodaches," although I also use that term when I'm at the point of tears for no reason. But I can feel a very odd sensation in my head, accompanied often by really heightened senses (euphoria) which sometimes looks like someone cranked up the saturations in the colors in the world. I have a friend who reported the same experience of seeing things in extra-brilliant color before a mood swing.]

One of the reasons I came to these boards in the first place is precisely such a conversion of sorts. I'd always thought reports of hauntings were very easily written off. (I should add that the fundamentalist Christianity I was raised in viewed all paranormal experiences as demonic, but as an adult I'd moved to the Episcopal Church and also stopped believing in angels, demons, and the devil.)

I was auditing classes at the Ecumenical Theological Seminary in Detroit, and one night (as luck would have it, during spookily strong winds) our class let out early. I had loaned my car to a friend, so had to call her and ask her to pick me up much earlier than expected. As I was standing around waiting for her to get the message, the librarian (who was also auditing the same class with me) commented that I was in the area where he sees the ghost. :shock: He explained to me that he'd often hear footsteps upstairs (on the main level; the library is down in the basement) when he was alone in the building (and the security guard also claimed the same thing), and one night he even saw her! He showed me the spot where he saw the lower half of a woman in an old nurse's uniform walk several yards. Apparently, there was nothing obstructing the top half of her - it simply wasn't there. He said he didn't know why, but he called her Katherine (my spelling; I don't know how he'd spell it) and figured she was a member of the congregation (the seminary's in an old Presbyterian church) back in WWI. I asked him, "So where does that fit in with Christian theology?" He shrugged his shoulders and said, "It doesn't." (He was UCC, FWIW.)

I'd never met anyone who'd had such an experience outside of my childhood Pentecostal circles (there'd been various reports of "demonic" activity, miracles, and such), and here was an educated, sensible person who I basically trusted. I think it helped that his theological views were similar to mine.

Then a (Baptist, as it turned out) coworker told me about how her dead grandfather would pull on her hair from time to time, just as he used to when he was alive.

Other coworkers were wanting to believe our building (an old turn-of-the-century mansion) was haunted, and my one coworker, a very calm, level-headed guy (who's now in law school) said something like, "No, it's not. Haunted buildings feel different." Turned out he'd worked in one. I asked him what it "felt" like, and he said, "Like someone's following you around poking you in the back of the neck."

Anyway, I can't reasonably write off so many people's experiences (who I actually know and respect!), so I was converted from non-believer/skeptic to agnostic. I certainly believe there's phenomena, and something behind them, but have no idea what it is.

Similarly, I think - I never believed in gender until I finally heard enough of the experience of transgendered and transexual people. I'm still agnostic about that, too, though. But if so many people believe their gender is different from their sex, then there must be something to their experience! Just what, I don't know. Maybe there is no gender, and it's some intuition that a person's sex is wrong, without reference to gender. All I can do is honor the experiences of others, since their experiences provide data I can't otherwise access. And I'm not willing to write off all data that doesn't come easily to me!
 
Old Time Radio: "Skeptics claim that the entire concept of the "Men in Black" was created by Albert K. Bender in 1952."
In fact, the first 'modern' occurence of MIB took place in the strange Maury Island saga, in June/July 1947. Contaporeanous of the Arnold sighting.
 
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